How would you counter this hypothesis to the ‘Enlightenment’ idea?

[galen_burnett]

@Ajay0 your reply to stirling on the 28th august (page 14). put away all concepts, except the concept that one should put away all concepts, and all the plethora of concepts that are involved in the concept of ‘putting away all concepts’, like diligence in practising everyday, practising correctly, carving your life around your practice, etc. so, put away all concepts, except for about a thousand of them, you’ll actually need those…

[galen_burnett]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

My friend and I had a nice chat.  He ended up given some details about the translation, but, we got side tracked because he kept referring me to "asavas".  He said the important point of the whole story was ridding oneself of asavas.  I wanted to focus more on the details of the story specifically.  But he is old, and I think he cares about me more than the story, and sees my own asavas as a great impediment in my life.  So, that was the focus.

Lol indeed! it must be unpleasant for them to always be on guard for attachments, like superstitious medieval house-wives adorning their homes with anti-demon charms, sort-of… 

 

But what I meant was what did you make of his view on the translation, that the use of the indefinite-article is incorrect there?

[Daniel]

13 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

@Daniel In your reply to Mark Foote on the 27th august (page 14) in which you refer to that “of what he would become” line, do you mean it doesn’t make sense because the Buddha was all about the ‘Present’?

 

Yes!  And my friend confirmed, the questions asked were all in future tense.  If I recall, the two translations Mark and I were comparing did not agree on the present or future tense of the questions.

 

So, the buddha keeps answering "no, no, no, no...."  it's easy to answer no, if a person keeps asking about the future if none of that matters.

 

there's also a beautiful imagery there with the lily growing in the pond.  did you know that lily ponds are almost always jet-black?  opaque?  

 

( naturally, I think there's a lot more to the story than just this, if one is motivated to probe deeper )

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Daniel

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

 But he is old, and I think he cares about me more than the story, and sees my own asavas as a great impediment in my life.  So, that was the focus.

 

Asavas happens.

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Asavas happens.

 

Speaking of future verses present... and asavas happen... and ridding one self of them...

 

Have you ever heard the expression about "wishing"?

 

"If you wish in one hand, and asava in the other..."

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Have you ever heard the expression about "wishing"?

 

"If you wish in one hand, and asava in the other..."

 

This one went over my head, or maybe not -- not sure.  Something tells me that's a good thing.

[Daniel]

15 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

Lol indeed! it must be unpleasant for them to always be on guard for attachments, like superstitious medieval house-wives adorning their homes with anti-demon charms, sort-of… 

 

But what I meant was what did you make of his view on the translation, that the use of the indefinite-article is incorrect there?

 

Maybe I mentioned it in my reply to Mark, I'm not sure.  My friend confirmed it would not be a title, not a role, not a name, just a matter of fact descriptor of "enlightenment".  I tried to ask about the direct translation to "awake" or "awakened", but he wouldn't go there.  It was very important for him, it seemed, to express that enlightenment was real, and that I should aspire for it.  He knows I am not interested in it, and I am happy to be reborn, again and again if that is my, let's call it, destiny.  But he cares.  He doesn't want me to suffer, and definitely doesn't want me to cause suffering.  His solution? enlightenment!  He wants to save me.  

 

If I diminish it to just "awake" that might weaken his position in attempting to advocate for my salvation.

 

Those are my thoughts.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

This one went over my head, or maybe not -- not sure.  Something tells me that's a good thing.

 

If you have the opportunity, and you see any "asavas" flying over head... duck and cover.

[liminal_luke]

I was mildly alarmed when I read that GB was going to do an "unbiased" distillation of this thread on his Youtube channel.  Would I become famous, and not in a good way?  After thinking about it, I've decided that there's not really much danger and, should he desire it, he's welcome to comment on my asavas.

Edited September 13, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Daniel]

21 minutes ago, galen_burnett said:

Lol indeed! it must be unpleasant for them to always be on guard for attachments, like superstitious medieval house-wives adorning their homes with anti-demon charms, sort-of… 

 

But what I meant was what did you make of his view on the translation, that the use of the indefinite-article is incorrect there?

 

Ohhhhhh.... are you asking what I think about a translator adding it and capitalizing "B" in Buddha?

 

I think they clearly missed the point and are not doing a good job practicing buddhism, and I doubt the quality of their other translations.

 

It would be interesting to check the translations that were brought.  If there is one which both avoids the title Buddha and correctly translates the questions in future tense, that's the translator I would trust.  ( and I am encouraged that I noticed the potential problem and accurately understood the story when I analyzed it.  That's good news for me. I can trust my understanding of the basics of buddhism )

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I was mildly alarmed when I read that GB was going to do an "unbiased" distillation of this thread on his Youtube channel.  Would I become famous, and not in a good way?  After thinking about it, I've decided that there's not really much danger and, should he desire it, he's welcome to comment on my asavas.

 

famous?  on Youtube?  Nah... we'll be nothing more than needles in a haystack.

[whocoulditbe?]

@galen_burnett You can link to a specific post using the button.

[Mark Foote]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:53 AM, Daniel said:

 

Agreed.  Then there's no need to talk about credentials, and how long someone's been doing this or that.  No need to remind repeatedly of a title bestowed.  Content defines credibility.
 

I appreciate folks that are talented, that can carry on traditions, and that are engaged.  I agree that there's no substitute for speaking in the moment, and we all take our lumps, in that regard.  

I'm familiar with offering from my own experience, and failing to connect with someone else's experience entirely.  

My old judo teacher used to say, "it's easy to hurt a person--it's hard to be gentle", meaning that it's easy to demonstrate somebody's imbalance in a way that causes pain, and hard to execute a technique that demonstrates another's imbalance gently, and with support for the other person.

"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow...", blah blah blah blah blah.

[Daniel]

13 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I appreciate folks that are talented, that can carry on traditions, and that are engaged.  I agree that there's no substitute for speaking in the moment, and we all take our lumps, in that regard.  

I'm familiar with offering from my own experience, and failing to connect with someone else's experience entirely.  

My old judo teacher used to say, "it's easy to hurt a person--it's hard to be gentle", meaning that it's easy to demonstrate somebody's imbalance in a way that causes pain, and hard to execute a technique that demonstrates another's imbalance gently, and with support for the other person.

"This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow...", blah blah blah blah blah.

 

for the record, I tried gentle.  but that doesn't matter.  It's in the past, I'm pretty sure the message has been recieved.  Only good things can come from it.

[Nungali]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:35 AM, galen_burnett said:

i’m catching up slowly, i was away for a couple of weeks so… i’ve reached page 13, but i’m also archiving it all carefully, which takes some time, so i can give a “totally unbiased” and “completely dispassionate and objective” presentation of it on the youtube channel i’m making…

 

 

[Nungali]

On 9/13/2023 at 3:42 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

 

For the record, I never called you 'inaccurate'. The term was introduced by Galen Burnett in this post:

 

 

 

 

Okay .

 

I wonder if GB will put THAT in his youtube  :

 

" .... and then I inserted things into Sternbach's  quote that he never said  ( ha har ! )  " 

 

 

now , since he is only on page 13 ,  lets make heaps of long posts so he never catches up . 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

@Mark Foote what are you talking about please in your sentences beneath the second quote of stirling in your reply to stirling on the 26th august? (near the top of page 13)
 

 

 

Think the quote and response you're referring to are:

 

Quote

 

  10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

What does this mean? It means that form IS merely a quality of emptiness, but that both co-exist and are interdependent. So, the illusory form of "self" never goes anywhere, but is recognized to be empty of intrinsic reality, or, more simply put, no-thing has a reality that is independent of the rest of reality.
 

Emphasis added.  "Shikantaza is the place, and things" (Kobun, from the Jijkoji website).  The place and no-thing, things and no-thing.

It can't be done, of course.
 

 

The Kobun quote in full:

 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. The dynamics of all Buddhas are in it. When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture! 

 

(Jikoji website, Aspects of Sitting Medition) 

 

Something from a piece I'm working on now:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, lecture 70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer)
 

 

Suzuki says that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of doing something, and that “doing something” makes the practice only preparatory.

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], from cuke.com)

  

 
Suzuki was thinking here of the last line of a famous poem by the 6th century Chinese Buddhist Fuxi, and he quotes the line:
 

Water does not flow, but the bridge flows.

(ibid)

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  The location of awareness, or “mind”, generates the activity of the body in the movement of breath, and the location of awareness can flow. 

Nevertheless, Suzuki cautioned his students:
 

Let the water flow, as that is the water's' practice. Let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge.

That caution was echoed by the twelfth-century Chinese teacher Foyan, when he spoke of two sicknesses in Zen:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!

 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4)

There’s a tendency to want to continue the experience of the mind that moves, to want to continue to experience activity of the body that takes place purely by virtue of the location of attention.  That can reintroduce “doing something” into the practice, in a new way.

 

Rather than issuing a caution about “meditation sickness”, Gautama simply endorsed his own way of living, “the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing” (SN V 316 & 326):
 

… if cultivated and made much of, (the concentration) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. 

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society SN V pg 285)

“The intent concentration” consisted of sixteen particular thoughts applied and sustained, each thought applied or sustained in the course of an inhalation or an exhalation. Gautama did not, however, ignore the role of “mind is moving” in everyday life--the fifteenth of the sixteen thoughts was:

I will breathe in… breathe out beholding stopping…

(MN III 82, Pali Text Society MN III p 124)

 
“Beholding stopping” is witnessing “the cessation (of ‘determinate thought’)” in activity, witnessing activity that takes place without “doing something”.  Gautama witnessed “stopping” in the course of inhalation and exhalation as part of the mindfulness that made up his way of living.

 

Gautama let the water flow and the bridge just sit there, but as necessary to his mindfulness, the bridge could flow.

 

When I wrote: 

 

"Shikantaza is the place, and things" (Kobun, from the Jijkoji website).  The place and no-thing, things and no-thing.

It can't be done, of course.
 

what I meant was "the place and cessation, things and cessation", and "doing something" is not "just sitting".   I expect I'll have the piece I quoted from up on my site soon, that may fill in some gaps for you.

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, galen_burnett said:

 

@Mark Foote your reply to stirling on the 27th august (page 14). suzuki seems to be implying here that getting to a place where one “does nothing” is the ultimate, the desired state, perfection, Enlightenment; or at least is the vehicle that takes the practitioner thither. 
 

See my reply to your question about page 13.

More like, "does nothing yet everything is done", the infernal ol' wu-wei.

 

[old3bob]

 

Just dropping by for a moment....Is not complexity often problematic,   Btw, "what does Siddhartha eventually hear from the river? What do they hear? Siddhartha and Vasudeva listen to the river so that Siddhartha can receive healing for the loss of his son. Siddhartha and Vasudeva hear the Om", 

 

which is cosmically simple but powerful.

Edited September 14, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

for the record, I tried gentle.  but that doesn't matter.  It's in the past, I'm pretty sure the message has been recieved.  Only good things can come from it.
 

"Asavas, how I love ya, how I love ya, my dear... asavas."

 

Where there have been deeds, Ananda, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech–where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech–in the thought.

Either we of ourselves, Ananda, plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned on ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after.

But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance, Ananda, those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought. As field they are not; as base they are not; as wherewithal they are not; as occasion they are not, that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe.

(SN II text ii, 36, Pali Text Society SN Vol II p. 31-32)

 

 

Seven come eleven, weal or woe!
 

[Michael Sternbach]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Think the quote and response you're referring to are:

 

The Kobun quote in full:

 

Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. The dynamics of all Buddhas are in it. When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture! 

 

(Jikoji website, Aspects of Sitting Medition) 

 

Something from a piece I'm working on now:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, lecture 70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer)
 

 

Suzuki says that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of doing something, and that “doing something” makes the practice only preparatory.

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], from cuke.com)

  

 
Suzuki was thinking here of the last line of a famous poem by the 6th century Chinese Buddhist Fuxi, and he quotes the line:
 

Water does not flow, but the bridge flows.

(ibid)

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  The location of awareness, or “mind”, generates the activity of the body in the movement of breath, and the location of awareness can flow. 

Nevertheless, Suzuki cautioned his students:
 

Let the water flow, as that is the water's' practice. Let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge.

That caution was echoed by the twelfth-century Chinese teacher Foyan, when he spoke of two sicknesses in Zen:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!

 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4)

There’s a tendency to want to continue the experience of the mind that moves, to want to continue to experience activity of the body that takes place purely by virtue of the location of attention.  That can reintroduce “doing something” into the practice, in a new way.

 

Rather than issuing a caution about “meditation sickness”, Gautama simply endorsed his own way of living, “the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing” (SN V 316 & 326):
 

… if cultivated and made much of, (the concentration) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. 

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society SN V pg 285)

“The intent concentration” consisted of sixteen particular thoughts applied and sustained, each thought applied or sustained in the course of an inhalation or an exhalation. Gautama did not, however, ignore the role of “mind is moving” in everyday life--the fifteenth of the sixteen thoughts was:

I will breathe in… breathe out beholding stopping…

(MN III 82, Pali Text Society MN III p 124)

 
“Beholding stopping” is witnessing “the cessation (of ‘determinate thought’)” in activity, witnessing activity that takes place without “doing something”.  Gautama witnessed “stopping” in the course of inhalation and exhalation as part of the mindfulness that made up his way of living.

 

Gautama let the water flow and the bridge just sit there, but as necessary to his mindfulness, the bridge could flow.

 

When I wrote: 

 

"Shikantaza is the place, and things" (Kobun, from the Jijkoji website).  The place and no-thing, things and no-thing.

It can't be done, of course.
 

what I meant was "the place and cessation, things and cessation", and "doing something" is not "just sitting".   I expect I'll have the piece I quoted from up on my site soon, that may fill in some gaps for you.

 

Would you say that Soto Zen is Gautama's Buddhism pure and simple?

[Ajay0]

Quote

“An intellectual understanding that is not backed by experiential knowledge can lead to mind games and deceptive states.” ~ Sadhguru

 

Just came across this insightful saying by Sadhguru. There is also a basic teaching of the ancient Upanishads, where a student named Virochana develops erroneous understanding of the ultimate reality due to intellectual study of scriptures not backed by true experiential understanding.

 

He eventually erroneously concludes that the ultimate reality is his own body, and deludedly decides to indulge in self-aggrandizement and luxury to pamper his body and self.  The story of Virochana is referred to in scriptural studies to show the perils of intellectual study divorced from experiential understanding.

 

The scope for delusion from mere intellectual studies is very high, and for this reason an accomplished guide or teacher is necessary most of the time to lead the student away from the maze of delusion. 

[galen_burnett]

@Mark Foote your reply to Daniel on 28th august (page 14) regarding putting “(and what he was)” in brackets. it’s understood that he was answering in the present-tense* to a question about his future; but it’s still not clear—at least not to me—why you put that part in brackets.

 

*note: i have also addressed the problem of ‘having been awakened’ being a past-participle—which is past-(perfect?)tense and not present-tense—anyway in a recent comment.

Edited September 14, 2023 by galen_burnett

[galen_burnett]

On 28/08/2023 at 6:14 PM, Mark Foote said:

Although "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" is not a permanent state, apparently the destruction of the asavas ("cankers") is.

Isn’t that ‘permanent’ cessation of attachments in conflict with the tenet of impermanence? what comes after such a permanent unshackling—‘permanent-bliss’? 

[galen_burnett]

On 09/09/2023 at 2:52 PM, steve said:

It's always interesting to notice how we tend to assume our experience, or our conceptual framework, is necessarily true for others. I suspect you are on the youthful side of life based on your posts. Life has taught me to sometimes 'be OK with no solution.' Perhaps you will come to agree with this someday and perhaps not. While you are entitled to hold on to the belief that "a 'perceptual-bliss' that transcends both pain and joy, is fallacious" you have not made your case to my satisfaction. Conceptual arguments definitely have value but there is much that transcends logic and intellect and much to discover there.

yes, i presume a lot of universal truths, i’d be daft not to: like, i presume a thorn in one’s foot would be painful for anyone. ‘youth’ is largely independent of age. i’ve nothing more to argue on the matter of problem-solving; i don’t think there is such a thing as surrendering in peaceful acceptance to a problem, beyond a tai-chi context of letting the problem fall over itself by getting out of the way of it, or beyond letting the problem destroy you and thereby solving it as there is no longer a ‘you’ to oppose it; so we just disagree, whatever. “Perhaps you will […]” ditto. I’ve argued pretty well against that fallacy in this thread, so if I’ve not persuaded you by now I don’t think anyone reasonable is going to be able to either anytime soon.

 

”I'm not too concerned with whether or not Buddhism breaks its own rules. Rules are artificial and conditional by nature. I'm much more interested in understanding what the wisdom teachings are trying to show me. With proper study and practice a deeper and more comprehensive understanding is possible if one has the interest and drive.”

 

i mean, again, you’re just cherry-picking logic that confirms your bias, like so many others have done in this thread already: “i reject rules [logic]; but please give me rules [logic] enough to study and practise with, and to understand my guru’s wisdom by, and with which i may form a deep and comprehensive understanding of existence… but, no, banish them otherwise, banish the rules.

 

i can’t deny i’m annoyed at coming up against what i think to be unreasonable argument once again; but at least you have been more polite than the others.

Edited September 14, 2023 by galen_burnett