Follow nature

[Mig]

I keep reading in different texts to follow nature, emulate water and be connected to nature and I am wondering did they think or do they still think nature is all good. When you look at nature, there is always something going on, not for the best for humans but to survive as nature is not clement. So why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence (DDJ Ch 5). Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature? Just wondering and you can probably can help me to understand better the idea behind "nature"

 

Thanks

[Daniel]

31 minutes ago, Mig said:

Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature?

 

My very amatuer opinion is that there are trends demonstrated in nature that can act as signals for predicting what sort of actions and choices are in harmony with the dao.  Observing cause and effect, action-reaction, in a person's life, and reflecting on the patterns observed in nature gives feedback on which choices and actions are in hamony and which are not. With practice and patience the signals are interpretted automatically and effortlessly resulting in life choices which are naturally in harmony with the dao.

 

31 minutes ago, Mig said:

why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence

 

It sounds like your natural reaction to these disasters is benevolent.  If so, then in a counter-intuitive manner, the natural disaster is good, if it is used to inspire goodness. 

 

Even for those who experience the disaster, there is an opportunity for growth.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-traumatic_growth

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

nature does not play favorites or unfavorites with anyone...to be or come under the laws of nature if you mean "the law of the jungle" can be tough, yet we also know nature as mother to all beings on earth.  

 

The ocean is a very powerful force in its different states but much of mankind still has a special feeling or love for it.

[oak]

8 hours ago, Mig said:

I keep reading in different texts to follow nature, emulate water and be connected to nature and I am wondering did they think or do they still think nature is all good. When you look at nature, there is always something going on, not for the best for humans but to survive as nature is not clement. So why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence (DDJ Ch 5). Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature? Just wondering and you can probably can help me to understand better the idea behind "nature"

 

Thanks

 

Would anything in nature feel or sense things as you do? Humans indeed are the most disgraced creatures in nature being caught in the prison of psychological time. What would our view of nature be if we were freed of that, if we emptied our minds like the DDJ suggests? Did Lao-Tzu see or feel things as others around him did?

20

What's the difference between yes and no?

What's the difference between beautiful and ugly?

Must one dread what others dread?

Oh barbarity! Will it never end?

Other people are joyous, like on the feast of the ox,

Like on the way up to the terrace in the spring.

I alone am inert, giving no sign,

Like a newborn baby who has not learned to smile.

I am wearied, as if I lacked a home to go to.

Other people have more than they need,

I alone seem wanting.

I have the mind of a fool,

Understanding nothing.

The common people see clearly,

I alone am held in the dark.

The common people are sharp,

Only I am clumsy,

Like drifting on the waves of the sea,

Without direction.

Other people are occupied,

I alone am unwilling, like the outcast.

I alone am different from the others,

Because I am nourished by the great mother.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by oak

[oak]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

My very amatuer opinion is that there are trends demonstrated in nature that can act as signals for predicting what sort of actions and choices are in harmony with the dao.  Observing cause and effect, action-reaction, in a person's life, and reflecting on the patterns observed in nature gives feedback on which choices and actions are in hamony and which are not. With practice and patience the signals are interpretted automatically and effortlessly resulting in life choices which are naturally in harmony with the dao.

 

 

The great Baruch Spinoza created a whole philosophical system based on that, just in case you wish to check him out someday.

 

[kakapo]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

I keep reading in different texts to follow nature, emulate water and be connected to nature and I am wondering did they think or do they still think nature is all good. When you look at nature, there is always something going on, not for the best for humans but to survive as nature is not clement. So why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence (DDJ Ch 5). Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature? Just wondering and you can probably can help me to understand better the idea behind "nature"

 

Thanks

 

Imagine what a tree does.  It absorbs sunlight, and captures it's energy and uses it to pull carbon out of the air, and fuse it with hydrogen from water to form carbohydrates and hydrocarbons. Most of the weight of a tree comes from carbon it pulls out of the air, not from elements it extracts from the soil.  Imagine if humans could build a physical spirit in a similar manner to how a tree grows.  Imagine if spiritual development wasn't metaphorical but literal.

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Mig said:

I keep reading in different texts to follow nature, emulate water and be connected to nature and I am wondering did they think or do they still think nature is all good. When you look at nature, there is always something going on, not for the best for humans but to survive as nature is not clement. So why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence (DDJ Ch 5). Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature? Just wondering and you can probably can help me to understand better the idea behind "nature"

 

Thanks

 

For me, this instruction is inviting me to look inside and to find something in myself that is similar to what I can observe in the natural world around me. It is not overly obvious or explicit, it is subtle and deep. It is something to which I'm often disconnected. It's qualities include spontaneity, purity, and authenticity among others. It cannot be created or destroyed, it cannot be grasped or even named in a meaningful way, but it is very real and the ultimate resource. 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Mig said:

I keep reading in different texts to follow nature, emulate water and be connected to nature and I am wondering did they think or do they still think nature is all good. When you look at nature, there is always something going on, not for the best for humans but to survive as nature is not clement. So why don't they mention the bad side of nature, the cruelty of nature and the disasters we see every day and in the wilderness nature has no benevolence (DDJ Ch 5). Why is so important to obtain the Dao if Dao is related to nature? Just wondering and you can probably can help me to understand better the idea behind "nature"

 

Thanks

 

 

You can emulate the qualities of water without even considering the damage a flood does , or the oceans rising or being pelted with torrential rain .

 

You can observe how birds behave and learn from that , even if they occasionally  crap on  you .

 

You can observe and eventually learn the various principles behind natural processes and incorporate them into your life .  Or you could not understand all of that and think 'Why should I do that when a  wildfire could burn my house down ? '

 

Methinks you might have your porridge  and fish mixed up a bit .

[Michael Sternbach]

In my view, by "following nature" those texts you mentioned primarily suggest following your own nature. 

 

Remember that the Dao is acting not only in the nature that surrounds you but also in your own being.

[whocoulditbe?]

1 minute ago, Michael Sternbach said:

In my view, by "following nature" those texts you mentioned primarily suggest following your own nature. 

 

Remember that the Dao is acting not only in the nature that surrounds you but also in your own being.

Can't write 自然 without 自!

[Mig]

20 hours ago, old3bob said:

nature does not play favorites or unfavorites with anyone...to be or come under the laws of nature if you mean "the law of the jungle" can be tough, yet we also know nature as mother to all beings on earth.  

 

how do you know that nature is the mother to all beings on earth? if there constant destruction and survival in nature, what's the purpose of creating each being. What kind of mother is that? If I look in the animal kingdom animals have some kind of affection to each other in their pack, so it is not all violence that I see in nature

[Marcus]

Nature doesnt make those distinctions. Humans do.

'There is no good nor bad. Only thinking makes it so'.

 When a river meets a mountain it doesnt hate or love the mountain. It either flows around it or slowly melts it away.

It follows the easiest path, which is wu wei. The natural flow with least resistance.

A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

You wont find Taoism on the internet. Just people hawking their wares.

You wont find Spirit in a temple. Just people in silly hats selling someone elses opinions.

Go natural and be your own master.

Peace.

 

[Mig]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:02 PM, Marcus said:

Nature doesnt make those distinctions. Humans do.

'There is no good nor bad. Only thinking makes it so'.

 When a river meets a mountain it doesnt hate or love the mountain. It either flows around it or slowly melts it away.

It follows the easiest path, which is wu wei. The natural flow with least resistance.

A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

You wont find Taoism on the internet. Just people hawking their wares.

You wont find Spirit in a temple. Just people in silly hats selling someone elses opinions.

Go natural and be your own master.

Peace.

 

Let me understand your notes. I understand we humanize what we see in nature. Not long ago, we thought we had control of nature but the more we see, the more we realize that is not the case. We try to dominate nature because the way we were taught. Now, how do you know there is no good nor bad. If I go camping and stay in one place, chances are that bugs are going to visit and most likely they will make my life impossible so I have to find a better way to be in a comfortable place. Is it good or is it bad? Is that about my thinking or just the way it is in nature? Now the natural flow with least resistance? Is that how lava works when the volcano has eruptions causing disaster for all the living creatures that were nearby. As for the lion, aren't lions territorial and will kill out anger or get killed because for some reason a pack of hyenas picked the right victim. How do you explain that? Each time I spend in nature, each time makes me wonder, where in the Dàoism or in the DDJ or ZZ talks about how nature is not all rosy but also cruel. Thus, I can see now why some humans are also cruel committing atrocities to their fellow human. If I read history and even today, I noticed how much conflict and wars still common in this world. Is that to follow the Dào? Is that to emulate the Dào? How can I go natural if natural is constant fight between those who can survive and those who take advantage of each situation to live comfortably?  And be my own Master? Really, are you implying having control of myself and my surroundings? We have control of anything, plain and simple.

[Nungali]

 

Look into the 'nature of things'   and how they  'work' . Then try to emulate that in other fields . Consider 'harmony' , or beneficial symbiosis , or water finding the level ...

 

Dont go around being a tiger and pouncing on people and eating them .

 

I hope this helps .

 

.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Nungali

[Mig]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Look into the 'nature of things'   and how they  'work' . Then try to emulate that in other fields . Consider 'harmony' , or beneficial symbiosis , or water finding the level ...

 

Dont go around being a tiger and pouncing on people and eating them .

 

I hope this helps .

 

.

Like what kind of nature of things? Any examples to share and how to emulate them as following the Dào?

Beneficial? I thought we were here because sharing is caring. Back in the days people used to say tigers were lonely animals but now apparently is not the case. 

The reason of my ignorant questioning is because the ideas I found when people say follow nature or the Dào, it seems to me very simplistic and idealistic because the nature I see out there is far from being harmonious and when nature catastrophe hits your backyard then is no longer that nice and nothing is left undone. 

[Nungali]

Just now, Mig said:

Like what kind of nature of things? Any examples to share and how to emulate them as following the Dào?

Beneficial? I thought we were here because sharing is caring. Back in the days people used to say tigers were lonely animals but now apparently is not the case. 

The reason of my ignorant questioning is because the ideas I found when people say follow nature or the Dào, it seems to me very simplistic and idealistic because the nature I see out there is far from being harmonious and when nature catastrophe hits your backyard then is no longer that nice and nothing is left undone. 

 

 

Okay ; water flows down hill . You need water from one source, say a spring  and then to your home downhill .  There is a hill in the way that is higher than the spring  . You can run the pipe up the hill and over it , but then you are going to have to force the water up there somehow .  Or you could simply go around the hill,   in a gradual decline and let 'nature'  do the work for you .

 

Or as I have said many times here ; every Aussie kid knows or is being taught  NOT to swim against a rip in the surf , go with it   until it dissipates  and then swim out of it , it might even wash you back to shore further down the beach .

 

 

It might not even be the way of nature ; would you spend a lifetime learning how to walk over water , or would you pay the ferryman a coin ?

 

[Cobie]

@Mig as you say, nature is brutal. Imo Laozi did not recommend following it.

 https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003399 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Mig]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Mig as you say, nature is brutal. Imo Laozi did not recommend following it.

 https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003399 

 

So why people keep saying follow nature, emulate nature? Is that what all the Dào is all about?

[Cobie]

40 minutes ago, Mig said:

So why people keep saying follow nature, emulate nature? 

 Because ‘those who do not know’ write a lot of stupid commentaries. See the timeline 

 https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54593-zi4-ran2-自然/?do=findComment&comment=1003399 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

Quote

Is that what all the Dào is all about?

 

Dao follows ziran.  

 Ziran (see link above) signifies the state of not relying on or existing according to anything external.  
 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

Following nature simply means working with natural tendencies to achieve your goals in stead of stubbornly trying to force the world to act according to your own preferences. In some cases animals and plants can be taken as an example, but not always. Following nature acknowledges our own relative insignificance by giving up futile attempts at heroism. Simple somewhat silly example: walking around a wall instead of stubbornly trying to knock it down or trying to climb over it. In the hassle of daily life this easy-does-it attitude is easily forgotten because we tend to get obstinate and irate at apparent injustices in the way the world works. So following nature has nothing to do with morality, and everything with surviving in an occasionally unjust world. Remember that the TTC was written in the Warring States period.

[Sanity Check]

"Following nature's simple way."

 

Is buddhisms 8 fold path, etc.

 

Taoism is a different thing.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Sanity Check

[ChiDragon]

IMO Follow nature doesn't mean to do exactly what nature does. It simply means to cope with nature. For example, flood is a natural cause of nature. The following action was dictated by nature is to avoid the flood by going to higher places. Indeed, it is not possible for human to create flood by following nature.

[Taoist Texts]

On 11/4/2023 at 5:02 AM, Marcus said:

A lion doesnt hate the animal it has for breakfast.

Spend some time away in nature and if you need a good teacher get yourself a cat.

a lion is a cat. the first lesson would be called 'breakfast without hate'.  

[Mig]

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Following nature simply means working with natural tendencies to achieve your goals in stead of stubbornly trying to force the world to act according to your own preferences. In some cases animals and plants can be taken as an example, but not always. Following nature acknowledges our own relative insignificance by giving up futile attempts at heroism. Simple somewhat silly example: walking around a wall instead of stubbornly trying to knock it down or trying to climb over it. In the hassle of daily life this easy-does-it attitude is easily forgotten because we tend to get obstinate and irate at apparent injustices in the way the world works. So following nature has nothing to do with morality, and everything with surviving in an occasionally unjust world. Remember that the TTC was written in the Warring States period.

Okay, I guess my problem is trying to understand "following nature". Did you understand it because it was common sense when you read it or is it because you found one sentence, one commentary or one explanation in one of the classics and that is how you understood it? And more problematic is when I hear people say the Dào is nature or the Dào follows nature, thus nature is 自 zì 然 rán

Now human nature is or should be a replica of nature and I can observe that some individuals grow nice and some grow mean or psychopaths as now we can watch videos as how some pack animals can be cruel within their own territory. As for injustice, I think that is for another discussion later.