Stranger things

[Taomeow]

"My friend in tao, the times have changed..."

 

https://www.facebook.com/721843241/videos/427836879838735

[Taomeow]

Multiplication is division.  

 

If the mind could truly understand this koan of cellular biology, everybody would become instantly enlightened.  

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Multiplication is division.  

 

If the mind could truly understand this koan of cellular biology, everybody would become instantly enlightened.  

meiosis or mitosis?

[Nungali]

Considering both of you ; 

 

meowosis . 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

meiosis or mitosis?

 

It starts with meiosis, then proceeds to mitosis-meiosis interplay.

 

 

    

[Taomeow]

The taoist canon, the Daozang, is comprised of 1445 texts.  The catalogue collated in 471 under the Director of the Bureau of Evaluation is about one-third the size of the earlier catalogue under the editorship of Lu Xiujing.

 

Which may explain why some of the canonized texts contain recipes for immortality.  What mortal could possibly find the time to study something like this in any depth?..  Especially considering abstract study ("philosophical taoism") constitutes a fraction of a percent of what it's all about, while most of it (the three main parts known as the three grottoes) is dedicated to hands-on practicalities?..  To wit, meditation, ritual, and exorcism.  

 

According to the canon, exorcism is the lowest stage of taoist cultivation, but there's no moving on to the intermediate (ritual) and highest (meditation) for anyone skipping this stage.  

 

Which may explain why modern meditators generally accomplish nothing in particular beyond maybe some sedating effect on their nerves -- if they're lucky.  If they are less lucky, their demons (with which civilized humanity is infested beyond belief) that have successfully escaped the exorcism stage get a preferential chance to flourish.  In a demon-infested meditator, the demons are given a favorable environment for projecting their power of delusion onto a mind which has been quieted just enough for them to come to the fore and set up shop, uninterrupted by the mind's usual everyday distractions.     

[Taoist Texts]

59 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

if they're lucky.

no..they are not, woe be them

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

exorcism is the lowest stage of taoist cultivation, but there's no moving on to the intermediate (ritual) and highest (meditation)

thats when they really sandbag you the freaking demons

[snowymountains]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

According to the canon, exorcism is the lowest stage of taoist cultivation, but there's no moving on to the intermediate (ritual) and highest (meditation) for anyone skipping this stage.  

 

Which may explain why modern meditators generally accomplish nothing in particular beyond maybe some sedating effect on their nerves -- if they're lucky.  If they are less lucky, their demons (with which civilized humanity is infested beyond belief) that have successfully escaped the exorcism stage get a preferential chance to flourish.  In a demon-infested meditator, the demons are given a favorable environment for projecting their power of delusion onto a mind which has been quieted just enough for them to come to the fore and set up shop, uninterrupted by the mind's usual everyday distractions.     

 

What are demons in Taoism? Is it dark parts of our Psyche, or they're like Christian/Abrahamic demons as in fallen divine beings that have gone rogue and invade/take control of people.

 

In reality, I agree, without proper prior integration of disowned parts,  meditation may have negative impact 

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

What are demons in Taoism? Is it dark parts of our Psyche, or they're like Christian/Abrahamic demons as in fallen divine beings that have gone rogue and invade/take control of people.

 

In reality, I agree, without proper prior integration of disowned parts,  meditation may have negative impact 

 

Taoist yaoguai ("strange monsters") are thought of as being born due to human activities which disrupts the Way.  They come into being via many venues as the outcome of deviations from the tao and the resulting abnormal, aberrant qi.  They can take the shape of people, animals, objects, supernatural phenomena in the environment, and outbursts of strange, "idiotic" and/or destructive behaviors, both in individuals and in large groups of people.  They can shapeshift too and possess various powers, primarily mind control and the ability to create illusions and delusions. 

 

 

[Master Logray]

15 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

What are demons in Taoism? Is it dark parts of our Psyche, or they're like Christian/Abrahamic demons as in fallen divine beings that have gone rogue and invade/take control of people.

 

In reality, I agree, without proper prior integration of disowned parts,  meditation may have negative impact 

 

Both and many other types.  e.g. dark parts of our Psyche has a name, Yin Devil.  It lurks in the sub-consciousness, can act on its own or triggered by feelings and events, very difficult to clear.  The lesser called Yang Devil are those rogue deities and beings that befriend or harm humans.  These are technically external species (or even aliens) that has a life of their own.  Nothing to do with psyche.

 

As to the "fallen" divine beings, there is an interesting thing in Taoism.  It is the reverse or "rising" to-be-divine beings.  Humans have alchemy to become Immortals which is semi-divine being.  Animals can also achieve human form or even to become Immortals if they cultivate long enough.  Snakes, turtles, very old fishes, foxes, bats are said to have this ability.    So if someone catches a very big and old fish, they would let it go as believe it could have some sentient though not really immortal.  But such happening is extremely rare.

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

Both and many other types.  e.g. dark parts of our Psyche has a name, Yin Devil.  It lurks in the sub-consciousness, can act on its own or triggered by feelings and events, very difficult to clear.  

 

Interesting, sounds similar to what is called today "automatic reactions" or what was referred to in older, Jungian, terminology as a "complex" ( which takes over the ego-consciousness ).

 

And indeed these are difficult to clear as they all "resides" in our amygdalas and first they needs to be brought to consciousness and then replaced with something healthier ( healthier for the present environment that is ).

 

Btw this is something that cannot be worked solo/by the person alone, realistically it's impossible without feedback from the environment and working with a therapist.

 

What was/is the Daoist way to work with "Yin Devils" ? I'm curious as to how it compares with today's therapeutic techniques.

[Master Logray]

58 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Interesting, sounds similar to what is called today "automatic reactions" or what was referred to in older, Jungian, terminology as a "complex" ( which takes over the ego-consciousness ).

 

And indeed these are difficult to clear as they all "resides" in our amygdalas and first they needs to be brought to consciousness and then replaced with something healthier ( healthier for the present environment that is ).

 

Btw this is something that cannot be worked solo/by the person alone, realistically it's impossible without feedback from the environment and working with a therapist.

 

What was/is the Daoist way to work with "Yin Devils" ? I'm curious as to how it compares with today's therapeutic techniques.

 

 

The Yin Devil is usually no problem for normal people when their mind are cluttered by thousand and one things.   One more devil won't cause too much additional harm.  But for cultivators, especially higher level ones, when their minds are comparatively clearer, the Yin Devil is not easy to deal with.  They are somewhat part of yourself.   Cultivators need great steadiness naturally, but also require sound body and mind, and a proper environment.  When a person is in distress, then the attack is vicious. 

 

There is another condition when the "real" devils i.e. external ones, affect you via the Yin Devil, instead of things like flying objects in the exorcist movies..

 

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

The Yin Devil is usually no problem for normal people when their mind are cluttered by thousand and one things.   One more devil won't cause too much additional harm.  But for cultivators, especially higher level ones, when their minds are comparatively clearer, the Yin Devil is not easy to deal with.  They are somewhat part of yourself.   Cultivators need great steadiness naturally, but also require sound body and mind, and a proper environment.  When a person is in distress, then the attack is vicious. 

 

There is another condition when the "real" devils i.e. external ones, affect you via the Yin Devil, instead of things like flying objects in the exorcist movies..

 

 

 

Thank you. Are you aware in which texts from Daoist Canon is the Yin Devil discussed ?

 

I would say that automatic reactions need a certain degree of self awareness to be recognised and even then it's not always possible, ie it is common for a lot of people to deny their automatic reactions even occurred.

Changing them is not something which can be done alone, it's more of a process that can be done with an experienced therapist.

[Taomeow]

I haven't come across yin devils or yang devils as categories, but my forays into taoist demonology weren't that comprehensive.  Of course any demon, like any other phenomenon of the world of manifestations, can be classified as primarily yin or primarily yang, but they can also change their taiji allegiances.  E.g., Sun Wukong, sometimes referred to as the "stone monkey demon," was imprisoned under the mountain for 500 years for, basically, being way too yang for anyone's comfort, and spent this long and boring time as an extremely yin entity.  Whereas fox spirits (a rather well-explored category) are very yin to begin with -- until they flip into their aggressive yang manifestation. 

 

Taoist demonology and exorcism constitute a major part of the canon, not a footnote.  They have their educated and trained professionals with different sets of qualifications, and detailed and specific "job descriptions."  A very tongue-in-cheek analogy would be psychiatrists vs psychologists vs social workers, except what they do is not what a Western therapist would do.  Taoist priests are "psychiatrists," Fashi (skillfull masters) are "psychologists," and spirit mediums are "social workers."  And then there's sorcerers, those can be likened to undercover agents, and sometimes double agents.  

[S:C]

How is it possible that ALL of you are so very sure of your empirical sense data perceptions and conceptualizations (while others are not)…. ???

[silent thunder]

11 minutes ago, S:C said:

How is it possible that ALL of you are so very sure of your empirical sense data perceptions and conceptualizations (while others are not)…. ???

Maam this is the Arby's drive thru...

[S:C]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Maam this is the Arby's drive thru...

So sorry, I thought I was at the gas station. My fault.

Edited May 1 by S:C

[snowymountains]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I haven't come across yin devils or yang devils as categories, but my forays into taoist demonology weren't that comprehensive.  Of course any demon, like any other phenomenon of the world of manifestations, can be classified as primarily yin or primarily yang, but they can also change their taiji allegiances.  E.g., Sun Wukong, sometimes referred to as the "stone monkey demon," was imprisoned under the mountain for 500 years for, basically, being way too yang for anyone's comfort, and spent this long and boring time as an extremely yin entity.  Whereas fox spirits (a rather well-explored category) are very yin to begin with -- until they flip into their aggressive yang manifestation. 

 

Taoist demonology and exorcism constitute a major part of the canon, not a footnote.  They have their educated and trained professionals with different sets of qualifications, and detailed and specific "job descriptions."  A very tongue-in-cheek analogy would be psychiatrists vs psychologists vs social workers, except what they do is not what a Western therapist would do.  Taoist priests are "psychiatrists," Fashi (skillfull masters) are "psychologists," and spirit mediums are "social workers."  And then there's sorcerers, those can be likened to undercover agents, and sometimes double agents.  

 

I'll share a nugget which personally I don't really believe, nonetheless it's interesting.

 

I'm aware of two very accomplished professionals, one is a psychiatrist, the other is a Psy.D., both privately believe in demons ( publicly they don't ). They've both had about 50 years career tenures and are well respected. Interestingly both are very experienced in multiple personality disorder and both don't want to share (privately) anything about what strengthened this belief.

This is a fringe view btw but it's interesting that two people very accomplished in these fields believe this.

 

But to put their perspectives in context, as great qualifications don't make someone right. Tbh in the only incident I am familiar with, where one of the two experts seemed convinced something was demonic, there was absolutely nothing metaphysical, nevermind demonic.

 

So my view is that probably their beliefs were created by past cases, where similarly they drew wrong conclusions aka they believed what unconsciously they wanted to believe.

 

Still it's interesting as both seem very convinced, they're sharp and well versed in multiple personality disorder.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

I'll share a nugget which personally I don't really believe, nonetheless it's interesting.

 

I'm aware of two very accomplished professionals, one is a psychiatrist, the other is a Psy.D., both privately believe in demons ( publicly they don't ). They've both had about 50 years career tenures and are well respected. Interestingly both are very experienced in multiple personality disorder and both don't want to share (privately) anything about what strengthened this belief.

This is a fringe view btw but it's interesting that two people very accomplished in these fields believe this.

 

But to put their perspectives in context, as great qualifications don't make someone right. Tbh in the only incident I am familiar with, where one of the two experts seemed convinced something was demonic, there was absolutely nothing metaphysical, nevermind demonic.

 

So my view is that probably their beliefs were created by past cases, where similarly they drew wrong conclusions aka they believed what unconsciously they wanted to believe.

 

Still it's interesting as both seem very convinced, they're sharp and well versed in multiple personality disorder.

 

"Demon," "monster" and similar words may mean all sorts of things, different things to different people, but there's not a single ancient, indigenous, etc. tradition where they are not present.  And even though we have been led to believe that their existence is somehow at odds with modern science, this in itself is merely a belief with no scientific proof -- because no scientific studies to tackle demons have ever been undertaken by modern science using its scientific method in any shape or form. 

 

For starters, scientists would have to agree on the terminology used.  What is a demon?  What is it that purportedly doesn't exist?  I think a certain configuration of form and function can assume the distinct behavioral characteristics of a demon, and it can happen inside the human brain and the resulting mentality and emotionality -- what psychiatry of old called "complexes" -- but it can also shape itself into something made of microplastics, of xenohormones, of social trends tinged or thoroughly permeated with malevolent insanity, of frankenfoods and drugs...  I think PTSD is a kind of demon, and glyphosate is, and Rockefeller medicine, and many aspects of child-rearing and education, and and and...    

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

I'll share a nugget which personally I don't really believe, nonetheless it's interesting.

 

I'm aware of two very accomplished professionals, one is a psychiatrist, the other is a Psy.D., both privately believe in demons ( publicly they don't ). They've both had about 50 years career tenures and are well respected. Interestingly both are very experienced in multiple personality disorder and both don't want to share (privately) anything about what strengthened this belief.

This is a fringe view btw but it's interesting that two people very accomplished in these fields believe this.

 

But to put their perspectives in context, as great qualifications don't make someone right. Tbh in the only incident I am familiar with, where one of the two experts seemed convinced something was demonic, there was absolutely nothing metaphysical, nevermind demonic.

 

So my view is that probably their beliefs were created by past cases, where similarly they drew wrong conclusions aka they believed what unconsciously they wanted to believe.

 

Still it's interesting as both seem very convinced, they're sharp and well versed in multiple personality disorder.

 

I offered it before to you ... but - no response , on any level .

 

One more time : 

 

http://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

perhaps you need some credentials for the author  ?

 

Chief Psychologist at Mendocino State Hospital in California where he worked among the mentally ill for 17 years. He holds an A.B., M.A. from the University of California and a Ph.D., summa cum laude, from the University of Ottawa, Canada, plus several other earned and honorary degrees in science, metaphysics, and investment. His two books The Presence of Other Worlds, and Natural Depth in Man (Swedenborg Foundation) have been translated into five foreign languages. He has also contributed to many other volumes and has written over 100 articles, mostly in psychology

 

Also I am curious about these two you mention not wanting to share publicly or privately  'what strengthened this belief '  and how you knew about this , what , they both declared , in some form, that they 'believe in demons'  but  ' and that is all we will say about it '   ? 

 

.

Edited May 2 by Nungali

[EFreethought]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:57 AM, Taomeow said:

According to the canon, exorcism is the lowest stage of taoist cultivation, but there's no moving on to the intermediate (ritual) and highest (meditation) for anyone skipping this stage.  

 

Which may explain why modern meditators generally accomplish nothing in particular beyond maybe some sedating effect on their nerves -- if they're lucky.  If they are less lucky, their demons (with which civilized humanity is infested beyond belief) that have successfully escaped the exorcism stage get a preferential chance to flourish.  In a demon-infested meditator, the demons are given a favorable environment for projecting their power of delusion onto a mind which has been quieted just enough for them to come to the fore and set up shop, uninterrupted by the mind's usual everyday distractions.     

 

Interestingly, this seems consistent with Nuralshamal's post about black magic. He found that the Taoist people he met could not help him with some issues, and he had to look elsewhere.

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55681-my-experience-with-black-magic/

 

[snowymountains]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

"Demon," "monster" and similar words may mean all sorts of things, different things to different people, but there's not a single ancient, indigenous, etc. tradition where they are not present.  And even though we have been led to believe that their existence is somehow at odds with modern science, this in itself is merely a belief with no scientific proof -- because no scientific studies to tackle demons have ever been undertaken by modern science using its scientific method in any shape or form. 

 

For starters, scientists would have to agree on the terminology used.  What is a demon?  What is it that purportedly doesn't exist?  I think a certain configuration of form and function can assume the distinct behavioral characteristics of a demon, and it can happen inside the human brain and the resulting mentality and emotionality -- what psychiatry of old called "complexes" -- but it can also shape itself into something made of microplastics, of xenohormones, of social trends tinged or thoroughly permeated with malevolent insanity, of frankenfoods and drugs...  I think PTSD is a kind of demon, and glyphosate is, and Rockefeller medicine, and many aspects of child-rearing and education, and and and...    

 

Their definition ( without knowing each other ) was based on someone knowing information that is impossible to know eg about other people, this was their acid test.

 

In the one case I'm aware of though, it was certainly very much possible to know a piece of information.

So in the only sample I'm aware of, the expert was sloppy and held a wrong belief because of it.

 

The closest thing to historical demonic descriptions is multiple personality disorders or even at neurosis level, disowned parts of self sometimes "talking" to someone during the day ( but not yet at psychosis levels ). Both of these would had been thought of as demonic a few centuries ago but today we know they're not.

A complex too might had been perceived as demonic a few centuries ago.

 

So, I think their acid test makes sense to distinguish a disorder or a neurosis or anything from something metaphysical.

What didn't make sense to me was the handwavy way they applied the test and drew wrong conclusions.

 

But still it's interesting that they believed it, maybe eg they were less sloppy before they believed it and the incident that made the change views was examined more rigourously.

Edited May 2 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I offered it before to you ... but - no response , on any level .

 

One more time : 

 

http://www.theisticpsychology.org/books/w.vandusen/presence_spirits.htm

 

perhaps you need some credentials for the author  ?

 

Chief Psychologist at Mendocino State Hospital in California where he worked among the mentally ill for 17 years. He holds an A.B., M.A. from the University of California and a Ph.D., summa cum laude, from the University of Ottawa, Canada, plus several other earned and honorary degrees in science, metaphysics, and investment. His two books The Presence of Other Worlds, and Natural Depth in Man (Swedenborg Foundation) have been translated into five foreign languages. He has also contributed to many other volumes and has written over 100 articles, mostly in psychology

 

Also I am curious about these two you mention not wanting to share publicly or privately  'what strengthened this belief '  and how you knew about this , what , they both declared , in some form, that they 'believe in demons'  but  ' and that is all we will say about it '   ? 

 

.

 

The ones I have mind have very respectable credentials. Also in the only case I'm familiar with, they were just wrong.

 

I think it's interesting that people with credentials take this view but for their view to become fact, they need to share evidence for peer review.

Eg nobody has provided evidence of someone knowing information that's impossible to know.

 

Still it's interesting. The reason I say it's interesting the following hypothetical scenario.

Hypothetically if the case that made them change view did know information that's not possible to know and the information was dirt on them/skeletons in the closet, then they wouldn't share privately nor submit evidence.

So there's a catch 22 hypothetical scenario - no indication of something like this having taken place though.

[Apech]

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

"Demon," "monster" and similar words may mean all sorts of things, different things to different people, but there's not a single ancient, indigenous, etc. tradition where they are not present.  And even though we have been led to believe that their existence is somehow at odds with modern science, this in itself is merely a belief with no scientific proof -- because no scientific studies to tackle demons have ever been undertaken by modern science using its scientific method in any shape or form. 

 

For starters, scientists would have to agree on the terminology used.  What is a demon?  What is it that purportedly doesn't exist?  I think a certain configuration of form and function can assume the distinct behavioral characteristics of a demon, and it can happen inside the human brain and the resulting mentality and emotionality -- what psychiatry of old called "complexes" -- but it can also shape itself into something made of microplastics, of xenohormones, of social trends tinged or thoroughly permeated with malevolent insanity, of frankenfoods and drugs...  I think PTSD is a kind of demon, and glyphosate is, and Rockefeller medicine, and many aspects of child-rearing and education, and and and...    

 

Yes I think definition of terms is helpful.  Daimon, for instance, was not originally a malevolent entity but rather a form of deity - perhaps a minor deity and particularly a personal one - like one's genius for instance.  But more broadly the existence or not of non-embodied entities cannot be proved on disproved by science , since science takes a materialist view and does not credit existence on anything which is not formed from the mechanical/electrical interactions in matter.  That is of course if one is to glorify areas of study such as psychology or psychiatry with the name of science - rather than the speculative fields of enquiry which they are.

 

Not just belief in but interactions with entities is common to all cultures (pre-enlightenment) and is part of the human experience.  Even Buddhists do it - apart from Western made-up Buddhism which is to be avoided in any case, as it is just part of the general sickness that pervades the world at the moment.  Even we, as humans, are not single entities but are several.  I think it is key to any level of practice in any mystical tradition to accept this and work with it.\\

[blue eyed snake]

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Their definition ( without knowing each other ) was based on someone knowing information that is impossible to know eg about other people

 

I've always known things that were impossible to know 

I've always heard voices ( as in, sometimes one hears a voice.) the information was often very useful, or sometimes information was just poured into me somehow

 

these voices were almost always benign, i never feared them, they just were, just as the grass, the trees( that spoke to me too when i listened ) the animals and the humans populating my world.  

 

I soon learned to keep my mouth shut about it,  for fear the grownups would call me crazy and lock me up in a nuthouse.

 

Looking back that was a very good decision of little BES