Body Focused Forms in Qigong

[liminal_luke]

I don't think anybody should be disparaged or humiliated in any way for the color of their skin or age, a minority opinion in this "anti-racist" age.  But to get back to the topic, SunDo is physically demanding.  About SunDo International - SUNDO INTERNATIONAL

[Taomeow]

22 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

errr, what can possible  constitute a direct evidence for 900 years?

 

 

Something Chinese.  Their record keeping (strictly enforced by the imperial bureaucratic apparatus by the way) goes back 3,500 years.    

[Vajra Fist]

I spent most of my teens, twenties and early 30s practicing shaolin. I'm not convinced there is a genuine chain of succession. 

 

I get the sense that most of the current Songshan curriculum is sports wushu compiled in the 70s. Plus there's also sanda kickboxing that's being taught under the shaolin banner.

 

I think the closest to what was traditionally taught at the temple is wugulan style. Interestingly, shi heng yi claims to have been taught that style, but he doesn't seem to teach it to his students, and it's not clear whether he's a lineage holder.

 

Then there's southern styles supposedly derived from the shaolin temple, which bear no resemblance to each other or to any of the three above.

 

Honestly, I'm quite relaxed about it. If his teacher says he's 35th generation, then I don't see any problem, even the succession is essentially meaningless. It's just a way of saying he has authority to teach.

[whocoulditbe?]

17 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

And I merely noticed that it's my favorite kind -- shifting the responsibility from words or actions one actually produced to the person who "felt" something in response.  I.e. "apologies for the way things are wrong with you," effectively.  

I've experienced an even better kind – try having someone break a promise and then hearing them apologise for making it to you in the first place.

[Vajra Fist]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I don't think anybody should be disparaged or humiliated in any way for the color of their skin or age, a minority opinion in this "anti-racist" age.

 

I don't think I was disparaging anyone on this basis, or even disparaging anyone at all. 

 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I don't think I was disparaging anyone on this basis, or even disparaging anyone at all. 

 

 

For what its worth I took your comments to be descriptive not disparaging.

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I don't think I was disparaging anyone on this basis, or even disparaging anyone at all. 

 

 

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Vajra Fist.  Not at all.  But I think I know what Taomeow means when she says that middle-aged white women seem to be "free game" for character assassination lately.  For starters, there's the whole "Karen" thing.  Also,  if you Google "white women's tears" you'll get results like "how white women's tears oppress women of color" and "why white women crying is still racist."  I mean, I'm flabbergasted.  How did we get too this point where anybodies expression of emotion is automatically seen in such a negative light?  

[Taoist Texts]

 

40 minutes ago, Apech said:

grandfather had taught him something and his family had lived in a certain part of Russia

would that be the famous russian no touch death strike?

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Vajra Fist.  Not at all.  But I think I know what Taomeow means when she says that middle-aged white women seem to be "free game" for character assassination lately.  For starters, there's the whole "Karen" thing.  Also,  if you Google "white women's tears" you'll get results like "how white women's tears oppress women of color" and "why white women crying is still racist."  I mean, I'm flabbergasted.  How did we get too this point where anybodies expression of emotion is automatically seen in such a negative light?  

I would give anything to be middle aged again.

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

would that be the famous russian no touch death strike?

He called himself Lama Dorje I think and I am sure he could kill you with one finger.

[Vajra Fist]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I didn't mean to accuse you of anything, Vajra Fist.  Not at all.  But I think I know what Taomeow means when she says that middle-aged white women seem to be "free game" for character assassination lately.  For starters, there's the whole "Karen" thing.  Also,  if you Google "white women's tears" you'll get results like "how white women's tears oppress women of color" and "why white women crying is still racist."  I mean, I'm flabbergasted.  How did we get too this point where anybodies expression of emotion is automatically seen in such a negative light?  

 

I suppose my intention in mentioning the word 'white' was to underline the cultural ignorance and insensitivity of the women perving over someone who presents themselves as a buddhist monk. 

 

I'd feel the same way, if not more so, if I saw a bunch of white middle aged men making inappropriate comments about an asian female buddhist teacher. 

 

I don't believe I was making sweeping racial or ageist statements as you implied, but rather calling out very specific behaviour I witnessed.

 

And yes, I'm a white middle aged person. I'm likely to have unknowingly displayed insensitive behaviour at times on the basis of race. I've taken on what you and taomeow have said, and will do my best to use more inclusive language in future.

[liminal_luke]

Just now, Apech said:

I would give anything to be middle aged again.

 

I hear ya!  It's been so long since I've done a cartwheel or a handstand.  My idea of a "physically demanding" qigong set these days is anything that requires standing up.

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

I am sure he could kill you with one finger.

on my part i am certain you and him pinkie swear that!

[Apech]

23 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I suppose my intention in mentioning the word 'white' was to underline the cultural ignorance and insensitivity of the women perving over someone who presents themselves as a buddhist monk. 

 

I'd feel the same way, if not more so, if I saw a bunch of white middle aged men making inappropriate comments about an asian female buddhist teacher. 

 

I don't believe I was making sweeping racial or ageist statements as you implied, but rather calling out very specific behaviour I witnessed.

 

And yes, I'm a white middle aged person. I'm likely to have unknowingly displayed insensitive behaviour at times on the basis of race. I've taken on what you and taomeow have said, and will do my best to use more inclusive language in future.

when you’re in hole keep digging 😄

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Talking about how good looking he is, and making suggestive comments likw how they'd liked hands on tuition from him in future. Honestly I found it pretty inappropriate given he is supposedly a monk.

 

I don't have the context of course for how suggestive the comments were (you initially asserted they were "thirsting" for him and my imagination didn't quite cooperate painting the corresponding picture.)  And of course there's all kinds of middle-aged white women in the world and it's possible (though not very typical in my experience) that the most lascivious of them prey on young celibate martial arts teachers and take classes specifically for that purpose.  In my more mundane experience, older women won't think twice about admiring the good looks of younger guys because they have grown sons or sons-in-law that age or even older, sometimes grandsons, and they may make those comments specifically because they don't think twice about it.  So, don't know how inappropriate it was, maybe a monk is not supposed to be good-looking, or if he is, women of particular age and race are not supposed to notice...  but this demographic may not be familiar enough with Communist monasteries rules and regulations.  

 

As for hands on tuition, I don't know what kind of training you got but in mine, it's absolutely precious and a game changer...  yet most teachers are reluctant to make hands-on corrections precisely because in our deviant society, human touch is supposed to be either sexualized or else nonexistent.  The age of untouchable "either fuck me or don't touch me" sexual maniacs is upon us...  Don't know about arts far less subtle and far less dependent on fine-tuned sensitivity, but you can't really learn taiji without hands-on instruction.  You can have tai chee to be sure.  But to think that students could possibly only want hands-on instructions because they are "thirsting" for the teacher...  I dunno.  Maybe.  Then again, there's jokes.  Women of all ages and races joke about "these things," not just men do.  So?..

 

In other words, your reasons for not liking the teacher or his students could have been chosen more appropriately methinks.  

 

Also sprach Taomeow.   

Edited September 16, 2023 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

Older white women who joke about sexy younger men?  Oh the horror!

[Apech]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Older white women who joke about sexy younger men?  Oh the joy horror!

 

Anyway ....  lol

 

I was going to ask a question from the perspective of my ignorance.  The OP seems to be talking about qi gong for 'stretching and physical strength' - the qi gong I was taught many years ago was really about connecting outer movements with qi movement in the body - building, storing, increasing and so on.  If I was interested in physical strength building I'd do weights and so on - gym work.  Have I missed something???

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I was going to ask a question from the perspective of my ignorance.  The OP seems to be talking about qi gong for 'stretching and physical strength' - the qi gong I was taught many years ago was really about connecting outer movements with qi movement in the body - building, storing, increasing and so on.  If I was interested in physical strength building I'd do weights and so on - gym work.  Have I missed something???

 

While qigong wouldn't be my first choice for building a muscular physique, some disciplines are indeed physically demanding.  The Sundo folks I mentioned before do finger-tip pushups, with advanced practitioners tackling tougher, more impressive moves like finger-tip handstands.  Some years back, I attended a Sundo retreat where the teacher had all the students duck-walk around a huge track, perhaps a mile long, while he looked on with binoculars.  Every day we did a sort of Daoist burpee / prostration that involved repeatedly moving between a seated and standing positions.  Did I mention that I only attended that retreat once?

 

Yi Jin Jing as taught by Robert Peng (Robert Peng) is not so obviously physically demanding but regular practice is said to confer great strength, not the strength of a gym-going bodybuilder, not strength that derives from muscles alone, but rather strength that comes from extraordinary integration of various energetic and material layers of our anatomy.  At least that is my take.

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Anyway ....  lol

 

I was going to ask a question from the perspective of my ignorance.  The OP seems to be talking about qi gong for 'stretching and physical strength' - the qi gong I was taught many years ago was really about connecting outer movements with qi movement in the body - building, storing, increasing and so on.  If I was interested in physical strength building I'd do weights and so on - gym work.  Have I missed something???

 

There's many kinds, the most crude division is between hard and soft qigong.  Hard qigong (favored, e.g., by Shaolin monks) can be more physically demanding than most athletic activities, and will produce athletic bodies.  I have no idea if it will do stuff on the level of qi, some of its methods seem to be completely opposite (e.g., multiple ways to make parts of the body or the whole body extremely hardened against striking force, insensitive to pain, and so on.)  Soft qigong can be quite useful for building physical strength and flexibility too, but by different means and with more of its effects going into inner core muscles rather than external muscles (as well as into joints and ligaments.)  Then there's other distinctions within each category.  E.g. there's medical qigong among the soft varieties, and within that, internal and external medical qigong -- internal for self-healing, external for healing others.  And so on. 

 

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

While qigong wouldn't be my first choice for building a muscular physique, some disciplines are indeed physically demanding.  The Sundo folks I mentioned before do finger-tip pushups, with advanced practitioners tackling tougher, more impressive moves like finger-tip handstands.  Some years back, I attended a Sundo retreat where the teacher had all the students duck-walk around a huge track, perhaps a mile long, while he looked on with binoculars.  Every day we did a sort of Daoist burpee / prostration that involved repeatedly moving between a seated and standing positions.  Did I mention that I only attended that retreat once?

   

Duck-walk was something my taekwondo teacher made us do.  No huge track, just round and round the perimeter of the dojo, but.  Every.  Single.  Time.  Oh how I hated it! 

 

The first qigong I ever encountered, many moons ago, was falun gong...  There was this one static exercise there where you stand with your hands holding the falun ("law wheel") above your head.  And stand.  And stand.  And your arms start falling off.   I couldn't remember pull-ups being this hard.  But tone the arms to perfection it did, if nothing else.   

[Vajra Fist]

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Older white women who joke about sexy younger men?  Oh the horror!

 

Once again, you completely miss the point. But congrats on turning a tiny observation into a massive 'culture war' issue. 

 

You play down accusations of cultural insensitivity with one breath, then explode with righteous indignation against perceived white oppression the next. Double standards straight out the right wing playbook.

 

Honestly, I'd rather you kept your bullshit to the current events section of the site. I'm sick of it. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Once again, you completely miss the point. But congrats on turning a tiny observation into a massive 'culture war' issue. 

 

You play down accusations of cultural insensitivity with one breath, then explode with righteous indignation against perceived white oppression the next. Double standards straight out the right wing playbook.

 

Honestly, I'd rather you kept your bullshit to the current events section of the site. I'm sick of it. 

 

The conversation seems to have turned back to the subject of qigong. a development that, I'm sure we all agree, is for the best.  Still, I'd like to say a few words on my own behalf.  I liked Taomeow's post above because I think she made some good points.  Weirdly, our culture suppresses women's sexuality while sexualizing all touch, a combination of attitudes that takes us to some pretty dark places.  My intention was not to attack you. I just wanted to riff on the cultural issues being discussed and (I hope you'll notice) never mentioned your initial post one way or the other.    

 

And yes, I do believe that white people are disparaged in some corners but that's not to ignore or exclude the rampant discrimination against other groups.  There's plenty of bad behavior to go around. 

 

If you want to reply to this post and have the "last word" so be it.  I've said all I need to say and won't contaminate this thread with any further "bullshit."  How 'bout that physical qigong?

Edited September 17, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

 

Under the international law of DaoBums I call for a truce.

 

 

[Apech]

13 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

There's many kinds, the most crude division is between hard and soft qigong.  Hard qigong (favored, e.g., by Shaolin monks) can be more physically demanding than most athletic activities, and will produce athletic bodies.  I have no idea if it will do stuff on the level of qi, some of its methods seem to be completely opposite (e.g., multiple ways to make parts of the body or the whole body extremely hardened against striking force, insensitive to pain, and so on.)  Soft qigong can be quite useful for building physical strength and flexibility too, but by different means and with more of its effects going into inner core muscles rather than external muscles (as well as into joints and ligaments.)  Then there's other distinctions within each category.  E.g. there's medical qigong among the soft varieties, and within that, internal and external medical qigong -- internal for self-healing, external for healing others.  And so on. 

 

   

Duck-walk was something my taekwondo teacher made us do.  No huge track, just round and round the perimeter of the dojo, but.  Every.  Single.  Time.  Oh how I hated it! 

 

The first qigong I ever encountered, many moons ago, was falun gong...  There was this one static exercise there where you stand with your hands holding the falun ("law wheel") above your head.  And stand.  And stand.  And your arms start falling off.   I couldn't remember pull-ups being this hard.  But tone the arms to perfection it did, if nothing else.   

 

 

When I learned qi gong we stood in horse posture for at least 1 hour before he would teach us anything else.

 

I got the impression that strength training (building muscle) would actually work against qi flow and meridian opening.  In fact I was told only to exert  (in the qi gong movements themselves) to 70% of stretch or strength.  

 

 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

When I learned qi gong we stood in horse posture for at least 1 hour before he would teach us anything else.

 

 

Sounds like a lazy teacher  or else one generous with his (and his students') time.  Horse stance is something I'd teach in detail, correct, correct again -- and again -- and then treat as homework (for those who need it.  I don't know where the idea of its universal usefulness comes from.)  

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

I got the impression that strength training (building muscle) would actually work against qi flow and meridian opening.  In fact I was told only to exert  (in the qi gong movements themselves) to 70% of stretch or strength.  

 

 

The typical muscle building exercises and sports are indeed often in the way of qi flow and meridian opening, and I believe so is hard qigong.  But there's many soft qigong forms and routines that are pretty physically challenging, and many will build up inner muscles without having much visible effect on the external ones.  Those inner muscles (intercostal, psoas and iliacus, core abdominal and back, and with some qigongs even some smooth muscles of the internal organs) are the ones primarily involved in qi circulation (while the external ones are in charge of qi expenditures).  Good qigong routines known for building strength and stamina do it with inner muscles involvement and without a specific focus on the external ones (which will never overgrow from those routines like bodybuilders' or specific sports practitioners', yet will also gain strength, though by a different mechanism.) 

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Sounds like a lazy teacher  or else one generous with his (and his students') time.  Horse stance is something I'd teach in detail, correct, correct again -- and again -- and then treat as homework (for those who need it.  I don't know where the idea of its universal usefulness comes from.)  

 

 

The typical muscle building exercises and sports are indeed often in the way of qi flow and meridian opening, and I believe so is hard qigong.  But there's many soft qigong forms and routines that are pretty physically challenging, and many will build up inner muscles without having much visible effect on the external ones.  Those inner muscles (intercostal, psoas and iliacus, core abdominal and back, and with some qigongs even some smooth muscles of the internal organs) are the ones primarily involved in qi circulation (while the external ones are in charge of qi expenditures).  Good qigong routines known for building strength and stamina do it with inner muscles involvement and without a specific focus on the external ones (which will never overgrow from those routines like bodybuilders' or specific sports practitioners', yet will also gain strength, though by a different mechanism.

 

He was far from lazy I assure you.