Body Focused Forms in Qigong

[liminal_luke]

27 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The typical muscle building exercises and sports are indeed often in the way of qi flow and meridian opening, and I believe so is hard qigong.  But there's many soft qigong forms and routines that are pretty physically challenging, and many will build up inner muscles without having much visible effect on the external ones.  Those inner muscles (intercostal, psoas and iliacus, core abdominal and back, and with some qigongs even some smooth muscles of the internal organs) are the ones primarily involved in qi circulation (while the external ones are in charge of qi expenditures).  Good qigong routines known for building strength and stamina do it with inner muscles involvement and without a specific focus on the external ones (which will never overgrow from those routines like bodybuilders' or specific sports practitioners', yet will also gain strength, though by a different mechanism.) 

 

I often read that strength training is especially important for seniors who are apt to lose muscle as they age unless they take action to stay in shape.  It's said that muscle helps with balance, helps people continue to be able to do everyday activities, and is associated with longevity.  Are there particular routines you'd recommend for the over 50 set who want to preserve muscle without doing anything that might interfere with qi flow?  Would the Yi Jin Jing I've already learned fit the bill?  Bodyweight exercises like pushups and pullups?

Edited September 17, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

P.S. 70 --75% is about right for any kind of exertion activity (including even eating to "75% of your hunger" in the taoist tradition) but not for stretching.  With stretches you are shooting for 100% of what you can do today (provided you're familiar with the correct way to do it safely -- there's body parts you never stretch in certain directions, e.g. the knees, and there's stretching techinques you never employ, the ones that overstretch ligaments instead of relying on internal power -- "dragon emerging" in Chen is a good example of that latter one, a challenging stretch which should never be done the calisthenic or yoga way and has shocked me many times in those beautiful and visually impressive wushu performances that are going to destroy the performer's ligaments and joints once the performer is past the all-permissive young age).  If you've been meticulously taught the correct stretching technique, you can safely assume that what constitutes 100% for you today is maybe 10% of what you should be able to do as a future goal.  (An example -- the chin-to-big-toe taiji stretch, which if you start from an "average" place might take a minimum of a year to master -- often much longer -- and will both give you healthy spinal flexibility which is the holy grail and might come as a bonus if you do everything else diligently and correctly even without specifically training this particular stretch.)        

Edited September 17, 2023 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

13 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I often read that strength training is especially important for seniors who are apt to lose muscle as they age unless they take action to stay in shape.  It's said that muscle helps with balance, helps people continue to be able to do everyday activities, and is associated with longevity.  Are there particular routines you'd recommend for the over 50 set who want to preserve muscle without doing anything that might interfere with qi flow?  Would the Yi Jin Jing I've already learned fit the bill?  Bodyweight exercises like pushups and pullups?

 

Yi Jin Jing is good.  Other routines to choose depend on your goals -- for general maintenance, I think versatile activities, ideally with whole-body involvement, are very useful.  Brisk walking (which I favor over running -- better yet, walking qigong), swimming, hiking with some climbing (choosing the difficulty level based on your current physical shape but aiming to challenge yourself a bit), a good yoga routine, a good stretching routine (I like the Five Tibetans and the TKD warm-up I learned a long time ago), and you know I always push taiji so, consider that.  As for pull-ups -- I'm in favor, in moderation, and as for push-ups -- on the fence...  Light dumbbells maybe, and a really good set of instructions (otherwise, more harm than good.)  Tennis.  I think regularity is important, it isn't so much what you do as whether you do it every day that matters.  Thorough housecleaning.  If you want to turn it into a muscle-challenging routine, try it the Japanese way or the Buddhist monks way -- wash the floors by hand on your hands and knees.   (That's what I sometimes do when it's too hot or too cold outside or I'm otherwise not in the mood to exercise but feel I should.  )               

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yi Jin Jing is good.  Other routines to choose depend on your goals -- for general maintenance, I think versatile activities, ideally with whole-body involvement, are very useful.  Brisk walking (which I favor over running -- better yet, walking qigong), swimming, hiking with some climbing (choosing the difficulty level based on your current physical shape but aiming to challenge yourself a bit), a good yoga routine, a good stretching routine (I like the Five Tibetans and the TKD warm-up I learned a long time ago), and you know I always push taiji so, consider that.  As for pull-ups -- I'm in favor, in moderation, and as for push-ups -- on the fence...  Light dumbbells maybe, and a really good set of instructions (otherwise, more harm than good.)  Tennis.  I think regularity is important, it isn't so much what you do as whether you do it every day that matters.  Thorough housecleaning.  If you want to turn it into a muscle-challenging routine, try it the Japanese way or the Buddhist monks way -- wash the floors by hand on your hands and knees.   (That's what I sometimes do when it's too hot or too cold outside or I'm otherwise not in the mood to exercise but feel I should.  )               

 

Thanks!  I've been thinking of joining a local gym but might start climbing up to the local lookout point regularly instead.  Intuitively, that feels like the better, and certainly more challenging, option.  I wouldn't go all the way to the top to begin with but could work up to it over time.  There's a new series on Netflix about the "blue zones"  -- places around the world with a higher proportion of centenarians.  Almost none of the featured oldsters go to the gym, with the exception of a few Seventh Day Adventists in California; instead they focus on physical activities like gardening.  There's supposedly a study that found a correlation between the steepness of the road up to a person's house in Sardinia and longevity.  I'm a tad skeptical of that finding, and of the concept of blue zones generally, but the advice about staying active in one's everyday life seems good.

Edited September 17, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks!  I've been thinking of joining a local gym but might start climbing up to the local lookout point regularly instead.  Intuitively, that feels like the better, and certainly more challenging, option.  I wouldn't go all the way to the top to begin with but could work up to it over time.  There's a new series on Netflix about the "blue zones"  -- places around the world with a higher proportion of centenarians.  Almost none of the featured oldsters go to the gym, with the exception of a few Seventh Day Adventists in California; instead they focus on physical activities like gardening.  There's supposedly a study that found a correlation between the steepness of the road up to a person's house in Sardinia and longevity.  I'm a tad skeptical of that finding, and of the concept of blue zones generally, but the advice about staying active in one's everyday life seems good.

 

I do a couple of hours in the garden most days, loads of plusses - such as closeness to nature and growing things.  We have a 'horta' for veggies and a garden for flowers.  Just planted some azealias which I hope will give nice blooms in the spring.  Also its a mix of quite hard work like digging over and general pottering about - which is nice.  Growing veggies is also a big plus - everything fresh and full of sun-energy.

 

The other thing is walking.  Actually I think walking is the best general exercise you can get.  

[liminal_luke]

It's not qigong (well, a few of the movements maybe) but I'm thinking of starting a regular practice of radio taiso.  Radio Taiso - YouTube

Edited September 17, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It's not qigong (well, a few of the movements maybe) but I'm thinking of starting a regular practice of radio taiso.  Radio Taiso - YouTube

Those look like basic warm up exercises which I used to do before doing aikido so we didn’t hurt ourselves.  I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but they are pretty universal.

[liminal_luke]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

Those look like basic warm up exercises which I used to do before doing aikido so we didn’t hurt ourselves.  I’m not saying that’s a bad thing but they are pretty universal.

 

That's true --- the five tibetans it ain't!  I guess I just liked how the cheerful voiceover and cartoon animals created a positive vibe.  It's something short I could imagine doing with my partner every morning.

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That's true --- the five tibetans it ain't!  I guess I just liked how the cheerful voiceover and cartoon animals created a positive vibe.  It's something short I could imagine doing with my partner every morning.

The Five Tibetans sounds like a pub that serves bar food.

[liminal_luke]

Welcome to Five Guys  

 

Exactly!  Can you imagine meeting a group of rowdy Bums at The Five Tibetans after work for drinks?  Not what I need to get in shape but lots of fun.

[Taomeow]

32 minutes ago, Apech said:

The Five Tibetans sounds like a pub that serves bar food.

 

A British colonel came up with this name for a lamaist monastic routine he learned while exploring Tibet in the early 20th century.  He was a member of the exclusive Travellers Club in London, described as "the quintessential English gentleman's club." 

[Dainin]

12 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

A British colonel came up with this name for a lamaist monastic routine he learned while exploring Tibet in the early 20th century.  He was a member of the exclusive Travellers Club in London, described as "the quintessential English gentleman's club." 

 

This "quite" reminded me of Commander McBragg:

 

[Cobie]

 

On 17/09/2023 at 10:34 PM, Taomeow said:

… healthy spinal flexibility which is the holy grail ..

Sorry, I didn’t quite understand. Do you mean that “healthy spinal flexibility” is the “holy grail” of qigong?

 

 

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Sorry, I didn’t quite understand. Do you mean that “healthy spinal flexibility” is the “holy grail” of qigong?

 

 

 

I meant it's the holy grail of health.  Only a flexible spine efficiently performs its tasks that affect all functions of the body.  It is in charge of balance, stability, and posture, allowing us to sit, stand, walk, run, and lie down "like a human" (my favorite taoist definition of what it means to be human.)  A flexible spine is an efficient shock absorber which allows other parts of the body not to have to go out of whack trying to compensate.  It is also a prerequisite for cardiovascular health -- there's a direct link between spinal flexibility and arterial flexibility.  To name a few. 

[silent thunder]

Bone is fluid tissue.  The moment this realization arose was penetrating and paradigm shifting.

We seemingly arose in aquatic origin and those emanations abide within the liquid nature of our current form.

 

Susan Harper has been exploring the nurturing of the fluidity of bone as connective tissue within the human form through Intrinsic Motion to astounding results.

 

This short video demonstrates the visceral qualities of our fluid nature when full flexibility allows comprehensive flow of and between interstitial spaces and connective tissues.  I see within her body's motions, countless versions of our evolving form thriving as one unfolding fluid entity in the present.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by silent thunder

[Jox]

1. Baguazhang.

2. Baguazhan.

3. Baguazha.

4. Baguazh.

5. Baguaz.

6. Bagua ...

[Partez]

On 9/18/2023 at 11:26 PM, Taomeow said:

A British colonel came up with this name for a lamaist monastic routine he learned while exploring Tibet in the early 20th century.  He was a member of the exclusive Travellers Club in London, described as "the quintessential English gentleman's club." 

 

It's more likely someone strung together a fanciful story around repeating a few common yoga exercises to make a quick buck.

 

If some mystical story gets people doing a consistent exercise routine, then I guess it's all good.

 

Similar to how some people do Qi Gong to get special power or immortality.

[markern]

On 17.9.2023 at 7:47 PM, Apech said:

 

 

When I learned qi gong we stood in horse posture for at least 1 hour before he would teach us anything else.

 

I got the impression that strength training (building muscle) would actually work against qi flow and meridian opening.  In fact I was told only to exert  (in the qi gong movements themselves) to 70% of stretch or strength.  

 

 

How wide stance are we talking about here? I always find it confusing when people talk about one hour horse stance and stuff like that. Surely the widest stance must be something only extreme practitioners can do that long. 

[EFreethought]

55 minutes ago, markern said:

How wide stance are we talking about here? I always find it confusing when people talk about one hour horse stance and stuff like that. Surely the widest stance must be something only extreme practitioners can do that long. 

 

I think depth is more a determinant of difficulty than width.

 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, markern said:

How wide stance are we talking about here? I always find it confusing when people talk about one hour horse stance and stuff like that. Surely the widest stance must be something only extreme practitioners can do that long. 

not wide stance

[Taomeow]

11 hours ago, markern said:

How wide stance are we talking about here? I always find it confusing when people talk about one hour horse stance and stuff like that. Surely the widest stance must be something only extreme practitioners can do that long. 

 

I've heard stories about extremely high level masters practicing horse stance under the table.  Unless they were midgets, or else owned a 6 feet tall table, that's a pretty darn wide stance.  

[EFreethought]

9 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I've heard stories about extremely high level masters practicing horse stance under the table.  Unless they were midgets, or else owned a 6 feet tall table, that's a pretty darn wide stance.  

 

That sounds more like side splits than horse stance.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, EFreethought said:

 

That sounds more like side splits than horse stance.

 

Just today came across this push-hands video of my Grandmaster in his youth -- check out the application of a very low stance beginning at 2:30:

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Taomeow