Why study martial arts if you'd never fight back?

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Franky said:

 

This system includes some Aikido techniques, and I agree with you. It's not effective against a trained fighter who has control of their center of gravity and also recoils their strikes. But I also agree it's good for throwing around drunks without causing too much damage, in the event of say, a bouncer that wants to avoid lawsuits. It also helps with comprehension of anatomy for healing applications like rehab with the elderly. 

 

I have found it  effective in this way as well :

 

Dont try to do aikido .  In a fight, bout  or spar .... wait , feel, evade ... at some stage the other might just 'offer it to you on a plate' ... that is, make a mistake, or make a move or be in a position where the technique fits perfectly  ... then its applied . The same goes for other styles techniques ....  I have found .

 

Aikido is just one set of martial arats techniques , removed from the larger picture and enacted in a ritual environment .  But you can still learn stuff from it , but it has to be adapted to a real situation to be effective .

 

I found that problem with them especially in ju waza  , randori, etc .  Everything was too telegraphed , polite and 'enabling'  ;  come on guys, amp it up a bit  ' ... its good to start slow and kindergarten, to get the movement, dynamics, flow, etc  ... but at some stage , it should meld to a more realistic situation .

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no we did not. you see servicing those big ugly things that go boom and brrr did not leave us much time to dance around in white pajamas

 

 

DUDE !   Look up the term martial arts .  The miltiary practices martial arts .  

 

McDojo does not have the monopoly .   learning to shoot a rifle .... for battle is a martial art , for hunting is not a martial art .

 

Thats what I sayin .

 

here is a simple exercise that will help you in this very complicated matter: every time you wanna say fighting say 'kill or be killed' instead. then you will wonder how you did not see it until now.

 

        Dude I done sword for years !  I call it sword play , even to people that dont like that . Ya know why ? Its because I say to them , this is all play and theory and exercise .... because , in reality, in the good old days , you would not do a lot of this stuff , the main stuff you do is 'dont get cut or stabbed ' .

and you suggest I will wonder why I never 'saw that' until i tried YOUR silly 'meditation '

 

please repeat with me:  the mongol hordes '  practice martial arts'.....the Macedonian phalanxes '  practice martial arts'...the conquistadores '  practice martial arts'...the Napoleonic battalions '  practice martial arts'...

 

I am not gonna re[eat any of your misunderstood bullshit      Who do you think you are ?

 

 

 

Then visualize a strip-mall dojo.  May be you will see the diff and laugh. At them, not with them. Just may be you will. I am not sure nowadays.

 

I wrote previously I did a many years long study about the modern karate BS ... I guess you missed that , or glossed over it in your rush to 'educate' me  in what I know more about than you do .

 

Now ... you may ask me questions on at subject for your further elucidation  ( eg , things like how and why did this mess happen and come about  .... instead of congratulating yourself via smarmy comments that you know OF IT . 

 

( I can dust him up as easily here as I can in the ring     )

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

did my logical argument proved to be the last straw for you, man? peace!

 

 

" Logical "     

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter – it is the Art of Peace, the power of love. Morihei Ueshiba .^[31]: 223

 

Great example !   What happened to Aikido ?   I'll tell you , although just because aikido calls it self a martial art does not mean that real martial arts are not martial .

 

Aikido used to be .... ueshuiba was in a weird Japanese 'kappa cult' and they where nasty bastards .  ready to take over China and the world .... Ueshinas  style ( based on daityo ryu jitsu _ was part of it .  Then came the defeat in WWII . No way they where going to be allowed to continue practice . It was mostly Ueshibas son that changed a lot of it , re writing kanji and words  into thngs like victory actually means 'harmony with nature ' and things like that . many martial arts in Japan became , n more to defeat other countries but as a 'defeat thyself' sort of  excuse to keep training .

 

Thats just a small part of the story

 

Exactly. This much fear and anger pent up in these disturbed images are the hallmarks of MA and nei-something communities. Must be that vaunted qi at work. Tsk tsk. Well its kinda funny. Amitofo.

 

keep laughing  ... or you could valid questions and learn stuff .

 

[Mark Foote]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:33 PM, Franky said:

I train in a martial arts system that most closely resembles Kajukenbo. I've been away for a while but recently returned. I've noticed that while they move well and like the philosophical aspect of martial arts, they admit they'd never be in a fight. I'm not saying anyone should go looking for fights, or even enjoy it, buy why learn techniques of violence and destruction of another's body if one believes in pacifism? I consider it incompatible with pacifism. 

 

It seems a desire to express oneself with movement and contemplate paradoxes that attracts them. I don't have anything against being artistic or philosophical, but it seems an inappropriate situation for expression and philosophizing. I like paradoxical philosophes and Taichi, but Kenpo based Karate is very different not soft of esoteric or philosophical. Enlighten me please.
 

I did a lot of judo, in high school and college.  What a pleasure, to be thrown by my teacher Moon Watanabe, and later by "Tomo", the sixth-dan high school champion of Japan who came to help the Watsonville dojo.

 

I didn't make the black belt, just brown.

 

Things that happened to me:

I was rinsing out a mop bucket behind a McDonald's at 5am, when a short gentleman jumped the rear fence. He had a brown paper bag with his left hand in it.  I saw metal through a hole, and grabbed the barrel.  In a split second, I recognized that he didn't intend to do anyone harm, and let go.  He was pissed, marched me and the rest of the early morning crew into the office and had us face down on the floor while he made off with the weekend receipts.  I'm not sure what I would have done, had I sensed otherwise, but I had closed.  A week later, he held up some German tourists in the downtown--they thought it was a joke, and he shot one in the knee and the other in the shoulder (same physical description, same long-barrel gun).

 

I was standing outside a bar, with a band playing inside, when someone took a disliking to my face, and threatened me.  I stood my ground, and told him I'd never done him any harm (in a non-threatening way), and he backed off.  

I was on my way to a company reunion a couple of years back, walking up the sidewalk with a pressure cooker full of pasta salad in one hand and a six-bottle carrier of beer in the other.  One of the other employees walked by in the other direction, and as I shifted to make room my foot stepped off the curb.  I was going down, so I set the beer down as I rolled forward, rolled and came up (I'm not sure what I did with the pressure cooker, but I bruised a rib somehow).  On to the party, and I thanked my old judo teacher.

I was leaving the laundromat with my laundry, three weeks ago?  One of the washing machines had leaked onto the concrete floor, and I slipped.  I was falling face first--I managed to tilt right, and I slapped the pavement with my right forearm like I was taught to do (although that was always falling on the side).  The timing was perfect, I could feel it exactly break my fall, I got up no harm done.

Yeah, only the real contact sports are useful in the MMA ring, so I've heard:  boxing, judo, brazilian ju-jitsu (not sure how that qualifies), wrestling.  I did a very little bit of Aikido, but I'm not good sitting seiza--I hurt my ankle just sitting, and gave up on it (seiza is the correct posture to take on the sidelines in judo, but cross-legged was acceptable). 

I learned to dance where people were doing the "soft-slam".  People would crowd the dance floor in front of the band, and somehow there were some members of the audience who knew what to do about that.  One of a pair would shove the other into the crowd, no ill intention, just for fun.  Sooner or later, people would shove back (usually sooner), and pretty soon bodies were flying around.  Staying upright and continuing to dance involved taking it all in and continuing to fall without ever hitting the floor, so to speak.  That was real training.  I guess the Aikido folks do something similar with a blindfold and a group attack, but I'm not sure it has the same feeling.

One of the bands that would set the crowd off, at the place where I really learned to dance:
 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Mark Foote

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Just don’t bother replying to him. He’s the same on every thread. Thinks he’s knows everything about any topic when he’s just making it up.

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I did a lot of judo, in high school and college.  What a pleasure, to be thrown by my teacher Moon Watanabe, and later by "Tomo", the sixth-dan high school champion of Japan who came to help the Watsonville dojo.

 

I didn't make the black belt, just brown.

 

Things that happened to me:

I was rinsing out a mop bucket behind a McDonald's at 5am, when a short gentleman jumped the rear fence. He had a brown paper bag with his left hand in it.  I saw metal through a hole, and grabbed the barrel.  In a split second, I recognized that he didn't intend to do anyone harm, and let go.  He was pissed, marched me and the rest of the early morning crew into the office and had us face down on the floor while he made off with the weekend receipts.  I'm not sure what I would have done, had I sensed otherwise, but I had closed.  A week later, he held up some German tourists in the downtown--they thought it was a joke, and he shot one in the knee and the other in the shoulder (same physical description, same long-barrel gun).

 

I was standing outside a bar, with a band playing inside, when someone took a disliking to my face, and threatened me.  I stood my ground, and told him I'd never done him any harm (in a non-threatening way), and he backed off.  

I was on my way to a company reunion a couple of years back, walking up the sidewalk with a pressure cooker full of pasta salad in one hand and a six-bottle carrier of beer in the other.  One of the other employees walked by in the other direction, and as I shifted to make room my foot stepped off the curb.  I was going down, so I set the beer down as I rolled forward, rolled and came up (I'm not sure what I did with the pressure cooker, but I bruised a rib somehow).  On to the party, and I thanked my old judo teacher.

I was leaving the laundromat with my laundry, three weeks ago?  One of the washing machines had leaked onto the concrete floor, and I slipped.  I was falling face first--I managed to tilt right, and I slapped the pavement with my right forearm like I was taught to do (although that was always falling on the side).  The timing was perfect, I could feel it exactly break my fall, I got up no harm done.

Yeah, only the real contact sports are useful in the MMA ring, so I've heard:  boxing, judo, brazilian ju-jitsu (not sure how that qualifies), wrestling.  I did a very little bit of Aikido, but I'm not good sitting seiza--I hurt my ankle just sitting, and gave up on it (seiza is the correct posture to take on the sidelines in judo, but cross-legged was acceptable). 

I learned to dance where people were doing the "soft-slam".  People would crowd the dance floor in front of the band, and somehow there were some members of the audience who knew what to do about that.  One of a pair would shove the other into the crowd, no ill intention, just for fun.  Sooner or later, people would shove back (usually sooner), and pretty soon bodies were flying around.  Staying upright and continuing to dance involved taking it all in and continuing to fall without ever hitting the floor, so to speak.  That was real training.  I guess the Aikido folks do something similar with a blindfold and a group attack, but I'm not sure it has the same feeling.

One of the bands that would set the crowd off, at the place where I really learned to dance:

 

 

is there a shark or bear attack in there somewhere? 

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

is there a shark or bear attack in there somewhere? 

 

What exactly does this mean in response to Mark's stories illustrating the utility of martial training in real life?  

 

As for me, I have three dog stories, no bears or sharks so far, but I live in a city full of dogs, all kinds of dogs and all kinds of owners.    There's 6,000 reported cases of dog attacks in our city every year.  There's only been 20 shark attacks since 1926.  Only one fatal bear attack in CA in 1986. 

 

Good MA training is about realistic situations where the skills it hopes to have you internalize have nothing to do with fantasies of violence -- and can occasionally come in handy against the reality of violence.  Not shaking of fear and not feeling helpless should such an encounter take place is an excellent start.  Violent individuals are often like unruly dogs -- they attack when they smell fear.  If you don't freeze and don't lose the ability to think clearly when threatened, allowing you to make decisions rather than have someone else make them for you, you've got a serious advantage over those with no hands-on training, albeit victory in a hypothetical brawl is not guaranteed, nor sought far as I know my fellow taijiquanistas with a martial slant.  A tuned-up body and a trained mind aren't useless assets, IMO.     

[Sahaja]

Growing up I was attracted to martial arts as a way of development of whatever potential I had. I was intrigued by the possibility that the world was more than it seemed. Practicing gave me a sense of confidence and a sense of fearlessness. I was primarily interested in how it made me feel physically and mentally not so much in fighting, which I tended to avoid if possible. .  I do remember using it when coming to the aid of my best friend when he got jumped at an inner city high school where we were attending summer school.  I came in kicking with my steel toed boots and shouting and it seemed to work in changing the trajectory of the incident , though I later found that the leader of the group I confronted was known for carrying a gun in his boot…probably was lucky I didn’t get shot!  I think this confidence engendered by my training also helped me in my adult life - as a bartender working by myself  in some dodgy areas with some “interesting” customers - and when I entered the corporate world doing things that I was not fully prepared for whether it was presentations to senior execs cajoling them to spend large sums of money or dealing with my life being physically threatened in Nigeria while conducting labor union negotiations there.

 

now in my retirement I am enjoying revisiting the martial arts  and cultivating their internal energies. I like the feeling of the Jin swelling up in me or the energy moving through me when walking the circle. At my steadily advancing age it creates a strange juxtaposition of a feeling of strength mixed with a weakness associated with my aging body losing its functionality.  While martial arts that focus on teaching you to fight others don’t really interest me (and it many cases aren’t that realistic or useful) I still enjoy the development aspects of martial arts.   I think they helped me survive on my path this far.  It’s also kinda fun watching others my age reaction when I do the splits!

[silent thunder]

I think this topic was posted in the wrong section.

It should be moved to Rum Soaked Fist. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

What exactly does this mean in response to Mark's stories illustrating the utility of martial training in real life?  

 

As for me, I have three dog stories, no bears or sharks so far, but I live in a city full of dogs, all kinds of dogs and all kinds of owners.    There's 6,000 reported cases of dog attacks in our city every year.  There's only been 20 shark attacks since 1926.  Only one fatal bear attack in CA in 1986. 

 

Good MA training is about realistic situations where the skills it hopes to have you internalize have nothing to do with fantasies of violence -- and can occasionally come in handy against the reality of violence.  Not shaking of fear and not feeling helpless should such an encounter take place is an excellent start.  Violent individuals are often like unruly dogs -- they attack when they smell fear.  If you don't freeze and don't lose the ability to think clearly when threatened, allowing you to make decisions rather than have someone else make them for you, you've got a serious advantage over those with no hands-on training, albeit victory in a hypothetical brawl is not guaranteed, nor sought far as I know my fellow taijiquanistas with a martial slant.  A tuned-up body and a trained mind aren't useless assets, IMO.     

 

it exactly has to do with Mark's sense of humor...and could even have some application with wild critters.

 

some dogs hesitate with barks before attacking, not always so for dachshunds, had one come right at me and bite the lower leg without pause!

 

[Taomeow]

37 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

it exactly has to do with Mark's sense of humor...and could even have some application with wild critters.

 

some dogs hesitate with barks before attacking, not always so for dachshunds, had one come right at me and bite the lower leg without pause!

 

 

Ah, OK, got it.

 

My sympathy re your encounter with a mean dog.  I've heard several stories about sneaky little dogs biting people's legs from behind with no provocation and no warning. 

 

I did defend a little dog from a coyote on one occasion using Chinese MA -- the encounter happened in the park which was almost empty on a weekday except for me and a friend with whom we were practicing jian forms.  I stepped in between a very large coyote and a little dog whose stupid owner was about to become an ex dog owner.  The only practice swords allowed in the park are wooden, but the coyote got the message just fine.  (Try prying food out of the mouth of a wild animal and you'll know what kind of look it gave me.  Shudder. )   

Edited September 10, 2023 by Taomeow

[old3bob]

22 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Ah, OK, got it.

 

My sympathy re your encounter with a mean dog.  I've heard several stories about sneaky little dogs biting people's legs from behind with no provocation and no warning. 

 

I did defend a little dog from a coyote on one occasion using Chinese MA -- the encounter happened in the park which was almost empty on a weekday except for me and a friend with whom we were practicing jian forms.  I stepped in between a very large coyote and a little dog whose stupid owner was about to become an ex dog owner.  The only practice swords allowed in the park are wooden, but the coyote got the message just fine.  (Try prying food out of the mouth of a wild animal and you'll know what kind of look it gave me.  Shudder. )   

 

some little dogs can be mean but not scary compared to say a threatening Great Dane!

 

Was charged by a grizz once in a Montana/Idaho wilderness area, that was scary since he could have had us for lunch but didn't follow through thankfully!  We still had to camp out the same night before leaving the wooded area and every sound in the woods had me on edge thinking he might have come back to check us out!

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Sahaja said:

Growing up I was attracted to martial arts as a way of development of whatever potential I had. I was intrigued by the possibility that the world was more than it seemed. Practicing gave me a sense of confidence and a sense of fearlessness. I was primarily interested in how it made me feel physically and mentally not so much in fighting, which I tended to avoid if possible. .  I do remember using it when coming to the aid of my best friend when he got jumped at an inner city high school where we were attending summer school.  I came in kicking with my steel toed boots and shouting and it seemed to work in changing the trajectory of the incident , though I later found that the leader of the group I confronted was known for carrying a gun in his boot…probably was lucky I didn’t get shot!  I think this confidence engendered by my training also helped me in my adult life - as a bartender working by myself  in some dodgy areas with some “interesting” customers - and when I entered the corporate world doing things that I was not fully prepared for whether it was presentations to senior execs cajoling them to spend large sums of money or dealing with my life being physically threatened in Nigeria while conducting labor union negotiations there.

 

now in my retirement I am enjoying revisiting the martial arts  and cultivating their internal energies. I like the feeling of the Jin swelling up in me or the energy moving through me when walking the circle. At my steadily advancing age it creates a strange juxtaposition of a feeling of strength mixed with a weakness associated with my aging body losing its functionality.  While martial arts that focus on teaching you to fight others don’t really interest me (and it many cases aren’t that realistic or useful) I still enjoy the development aspects of martial arts.   I think they helped me survive on my path this far.  It’s also kinda fun watching others my age reaction when I do the splits!
 

The splits, I'm envious.  Aging body, heart tattooed inside and out to restore normal rhythm.  Nevertheless, doc says get more exercise, so I expect to step out to the local band in about an hour.  Lucky to have a number of local establishments willing to pay local bands to perform for the public on their premises, and not charge admission.  Photos below.

I did enjoy reading about the adventures you've had on your journey, thanks for that.

Walking the circle, so Bagua?

My big takeaway has been the importance of a center that takes in things beyond the range of the senses, an extension that I find only possible with good will toward all.  As a teacher I greatly admired and respected once said, "people who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!" (Kobun Chino Otogawa)

I've always found it easier to apply that advice on the dance floor than sitting.  



 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Just don’t bother replying to him. He’s the same on every thread. Thinks he’s knows everything about any topic when he’s just making it up.

 

Ahhhhh ... I dont mind him .  He can take it as well as dish it out .

 

I agree with him about modern 'DOJO' martial arts ... well, a LOT of them .

 

My teacher never had a dojo , wore  white pajamas * , not even had a real name for the style .  Virtually unknown to the outside world .

 

* I have seen him in  them, usually when OS visitors come and want him to pose with a group photo , or some official type photo ,  but training  he usually wore  loose slacks and a singlet or topless .   Then again, in Okinawa ... thats basic old school peasant dress .

 

I'll tell ya how far that BS goes ..... a guy I knew kept his rolled  karate uniform with black belt tied around it on the back shelf of his car below the rear window ..... just in case anyone 'gave him trouble ' .    

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

What exactly does this mean in response to Mark's stories illustrating the utility of martial training in real life?  

 

As for me, I have three dog stories, no bears or sharks so far, but I live in a city full of dogs, all kinds of dogs and all kinds of owners.    There's 6,000 reported cases of dog attacks in our city every year.  There's only been 20 shark attacks since 1926.  Only one fatal bear attack in CA in 1986. 

 

Good MA training is about realistic situations where the skills it hopes to have you internalize have nothing to do with fantasies of violence -- and can occasionally come in handy against the reality of violence.  Not shaking of fear and not feeling helpless should such an encounter take place is an excellent start.  Violent individuals are often like unruly dogs -- they attack when they smell fear.  If you don't freeze and don't lose the ability to think clearly when threatened, allowing you to make decisions rather than have someone else make them for you, you've got a serious advantage over those with no hands-on training, albeit victory in a hypothetical brawl is not guaranteed, nor sought far as I know my fellow taijiquanistas with a martial slant.  A tuned-up body and a trained mind aren't useless assets, IMO.     

 

This one had me in stitches .... especially the 'assistant's '  sound effects ;

 

Master Wong  - 'How to defend against dog attack '.

 

" Now ...... you got a pwoblem !  "     

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

some little dogs can be mean but not scary compared to say a threatening Great Dane!

 

I once accidentally spooked a pit bull into thinking I was going to attack it.  (That's the second of my MA dog stories).  I was standing on some rocks on the beach, close to the edge of the water, talking to the owners of a very grumpy looking pit bull.  The folks and the dog had their backs (or behinds, as the case may be) to the ocean while I was facing it.  The ocean was stormy, and suddenly I saw a humongous wave coming in and realized that in a second it will get us all soaked head to toe, and jumped up and back, out of the way.  The dog who didn't see the wave and was of a suspicious unfriendly disposition to begin with jumped up and forward almost simultaneously, as high as me, so that its eyes momentarily appeared at level with mine, and its open maw slightly below them.  

 

Time stood still.  Me and the pit bull were suspended in the air, looking each other in the eye, exchanging telepathic messages.   "You lulled my suspicions and suddenly jumped to attack me, so I'm going to bite your face off or go for the throat, trying to decide which."  "No, no, no!  Can't you see I was jumping up and back, not up and forward?  I wasn't attacking you, I was trying to avoid that big wave behind you which you are about to feel on your hide.  But if you try to go ahead with your bite plan, I'll kick you in the groin even before it reaches you."  And then the wave descended on the dog and its owners, in slo-mo.  And I saw understanding in the pit bull's eyes -- "Oh...  OK, now I see.  That was close though.  Don't suddenly jump around me or mine ever again.  I am faster and much stronger, and your kick would have been ignored in any event."  "OK, you were mighty convincing.  Glad we were able to diffuse the situation."  Its maw closed with a loud snap.  Time took off again, the moment of being suspended in the air passed, we both landed on the wet stones simultaneously. 

 

The upward-backward jump was a reversed version of Chen style Fair Lady I was practicing days earlier just to see if it could be done that way.  If I  knew I would provoke the pit bull I'd much rather get wet of course...  so an unforeseeable real-life situation can also be a lesson, in more ways than one.      

Edited September 10, 2023 by Taomeow

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.9.2023 at 5:37 AM, Franky said:

 

My master got his black belt from Ed Parker a long time ago. Then went on to explore other styles and created his own system, mostly based on Ed Parker's Kenpo, with many of his techniques being applied. A lot of quick and nasty stuff like eye and groin strikes, knee kicks etc... Not for sport situations. While he does enjoy the philosophical aspects, the philosophy is auxiliary at best. It seems however, that the new generation of students have inverted these priorities and he expressed concern about it, but he's ready to retire and considers this an omen to do so. I understand that a philosophical martial art would stress spiritual achievements via physical practice, but defense and fitness are his priorities. Hope this makes sense.

 

I never understood why there should be a dichotomy between self-defence and spiritual achievements in MA practice. Surely the Buddhist monk Takuan Soho didn't look at things that way either when he authored the content of The Unfettered Mind -- a fantastic book, BTW, that thematises the application of Zen principles to mortal combat. Highly recommended reading for anyone interested in the topic.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.9.2023 at 1:25 AM, Nungali said:

 

Well, it depends on your style's philosophy .   If it IS about self defence and fighting then that is where it should be .

 

I am not a good physical fighter - I dont have enough expereince with real fighting   ( however I did okay in the club and often cleaned up others in cross training - ie, different styles ) but that was becasue they did LESS real stuff than I did . But I do enjoy the movement, dynamic, tactics , range , etc  ... " a desire to express oneself with movement and contemplate paradoxes " ... yes, not sure about the paradoxes ....  more 'contemplate situations and their dynamics '.

 

However , I did aikido for years , what they teach in the dojo is NOT good for self defence , however it helped me immensely in my hospital work as an orderly  ... and often having to deal with the disorderly  ( drunk, stoned, confused , aggressive , panicked. etc ) in a way where violence and conflict rarely manifested .

 

Even correcting one's gait (walking style ) can help with self defence  .... meaning , you can learn a lot that stops a fight before it even starts .

 

My old teacher ( gone now ) was very traditional , his system was a fighting system ( and not for the ring either ... one would be immediately disqualified  - his old school reasons for studying and practising where threefold ;

1. To protect your parents .

2. To protect your home and household .

3. To protect yourself - so you can continue to to do 1 and 2 .

 

But me ... yeah, I just like the movement and the dynamic , as described above ' between two people  (or me and three others ) , it just fascinates me and I enjoy it . I do not enjoy BS martial arts , and I recently dropped out of a very long term practice ,  due to this .

 

man, have things improved since I did that !  It was soooo restrictive , degraded , disillusioned , warped ... yet it contained valuable kernals of gold - which I mined . 

 

There are a whole set of reasons for this weird dynamic you mention ... it is related to cultural things  it seems . I spent a few years looking into it , as i wanted to find out why there was soooo much BS involved in martial arts .  Its FULL of it !

 

- but people dont like to be told why.      

 

On 9.9.2023 at 5:39 AM, Franky said:

 

This system includes some Aikido techniques, and I agree with you. It's not effective against a trained fighter who has control of their center of gravity and also recoils their strikes. But I also agree it's good for throwing around drunks without causing too much damage, in the event of say, a bouncer that wants to avoid lawsuits. It also helps with comprehension of anatomy for healing applications like rehab with the elderly. 

 

On 10.9.2023 at 12:25 AM, Nungali said:

 

I have found it  effective in this way as well :

 

Dont try to do aikido .  In a fight, bout  or spar .... wait , feel, evade ... at some stage the other might just 'offer it to you on a plate' ... that is, make a mistake, or make a move or be in a position where the technique fits perfectly  ... then its applied . The same goes for other styles techniques ....  I have found .

 

Aikido is just one set of martial arats techniques , removed from the larger picture and enacted in a ritual environment .  But you can still learn stuff from it , but it has to be adapted to a real situation to be effective .

 

I found that problem with them especially in ju waza  , randori, etc .  Everything was too telegraphed , polite and 'enabling'  ;  come on guys, amp it up a bit  ' ... its good to start slow and kindergarten, to get the movement, dynamics, flow, etc  ... but at some stage , it should meld to a more realistic situation .

 

I agree that Aikido the way it's generally taught isn't too suitable for application in a real-life situation. Fending off exaggerated stylized attacks may be a good way for beginners to get the basics down, but should give way to more realistic scenarios at a certain stage.

 

However, regardless of all the criticism the art is getting, I maintain that its principles are sound and applicable. (Ever tried to disarm a crazed knife-wielding person with a kote-gaeshi? I did it twice--it worked like a charm!)

 

The following video addresses some of these issues:

 

 

[Nungali]

On 9/11/2023 at 9:14 AM, Taomeow said:

 

I once accidentally spooked a pit bull into thinking I was going to attack it.  (That's the second of my MA dog stories).  I was standing on some rocks on the beach, close to the edge of the water, talking to the owners of a very grumpy looking pit bull.  The folks and the dog had their backs (or behinds, as the case may be) to the ocean while I was facing it.  The ocean was stormy, and suddenly I saw a humongous wave coming in and realized that in a second it will get us all soaked head to toe, and jumped up and back, out of the way.  The dog who didn't see the wave and was of a suspicious unfriendly disposition to begin with jumped up and forward almost simultaneously, as high as me, so that its eyes momentarily appeared at level with mine, and its open maw slightly below them.  

 

Time stood still.  Me and the pit bull were suspended in the air, looking each other in the eye, exchanging telepathic messages.   "You lulled my suspicions and suddenly jumped to attack me, so I'm going to bite your face off or go for the throat, trying to decide which."  "No, no, no!  Can't you see I was jumping up and back, not up and forward?  I wasn't attacking you, I was trying to avoid that big wave behind you which you are about to feel on your hide.  But if you try to go ahead with your bite plan, I'll kick you in the groin even before it reaches you."  And then the wave descended on the dog and its owners, in slo-mo.  And I saw understanding in the pit bull's eyes -- "Oh...  OK, now I see.  That was close though.  Don't suddenly jump around me or mine ever again.  I am faster and much stronger, and your kick would have been ignored in any event."  "OK, you were mighty convincing.  Glad we were able to diffuse the situation."  Its maw closed with a loud snap.  Time took off again, the moment of being suspended in the air passed, we both landed on the wet stones simultaneously. 

 

The upward-backward jump was a reversed version of Chen style Fair Lady I was practicing days earlier just to see if it could be done that way.  If I  knew I would provoke the pit bull I'd much rather get wet of course...  so an unforeseeable real-life situation can also be a lesson, in more ways than one.      

 

 

Great story .

 

I wont repeat mine  ( too many )  - just a fav one - as I worked as a  motor cycle postal courier  (  Honda 90 , loaded up with two large saddle bags, a front carry basket and a rear rack ... on a 90 cc !     ) in a rich area , waterfront houses down crazy steep driveways ... many a time having to negotiate all of that , while trying to escape the dogs . One came at me while going up a very steep drive , so I just kicked it in the face with my boot , but it managed to bite the boot and hang on ... so now I am going up the driveway dragging a dog by its mouth as well  .... he didnt let go until the gate    .

 

And your doggy  jump .... reminded me of one time at work , moving location , crazy busy .... I know the slackers would not have secured the contents inside  the catering cool room I had to tow, so I jumped into it, in a rush to check .... but someone had already lifted and secured the support legs  so it was just on the main wheels and the front dolly wheel , as soon as I stepped on the back step, down  it went , flipping me backwards and out . A few people where watching ... but instinct kicked in , apparently  ( from accounts ) I flew backwards,. hit the ground , did a beautiful aikido style backward roll and stopped facing forward  on one knee one hand on the ground in ready position .....   perfect   !

 

Except .... then all the ( yes, unsecured) stuff in the cool room followed me ; bowls of cream, custard , fruit  salad  ... all over me .

 

I looked pretty good  .... for a moment  there .

Edited September 11, 2023 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

12 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I agree that Aikido the way it's generally taught isn't too suitable for application in a real-life situation. Fending off exaggerated stylized attacks may be a good way for beginners to get the basics down, but should give way to more realistic scenarios at a certain stage.

 

However, regardless of all the criticism the art is getting, I maintain that its principles are sound and applicable. (Ever tried to disarm a crazed knife-wielding person with a kote-gaeshi? I did it twice--it worked like a charm!)

 

The following video addresses some of these issues:

 

 

"crazed knife-wielding", glad kote-gaeshi worked for you! 

"Turn the hips, fingers down to the floor" says the video reminding me of what kote-gaeshi is.

The video had some amazing moments--I had no idea that anyone was trying to free-spar Aikido.  Not all that impressed by what was on the video there--like a judo match but without the dramatic moment when somebody gets a grip and goes for it.  Except for one kote-gaeshi.

He's advocating for sweeps in Aikido sparring.  That was the throw of the dojo, in my high school years--our teacher's throw.   We all learned it.  His was particularly wonderful to be thrown with.

Have we said enough, about why study martial arts if you'd never fight back?  Ha ha! (it's the teachers, find a good one!).

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

 

I agree that Aikido the way it's generally taught isn't too suitable for application in a real-life situation. Fending off exaggerated stylized attacks may be a good way for beginners to get the basics down, but should give way to more realistic scenarios at a certain stage.

 

However, regardless of all the criticism the art is getting, I maintain that its principles are sound and applicable. (Ever tried to disarm a crazed knife-wielding person with a kote-gaeshi? I did it twice--it worked like a charm!)

 

The following video addresses some of these issues:

 

 

 

A few thoughts on the video .

 

Aikido is not cultish ... or a satanic cult    , not satanic but Aki-kai is definitely a cult . Its a family cult too .

 

We where told 'we'  ( paid up members of aki-kai aikido) had Mr Sugarno as our teacher ( the HG assigned 'boss' of Australia ) .  Not that he seems to have any presence , he chooses to live in new York. If you are a member , some of your fees will go to him and some to the descendants of Ueshiba  family who still hold ( or did then ) the 'business' .  Not to mention the shrine of the dead ancestor ( ueshiba) in each dojo that everyone bows to . The classes are stylised formal rituals  that often have no meaning or no meaning given  ( regarding some of the strange 'warm ups' ) .

 

the other point was the mention of Aikido in MMA .  Its just silly to try and take that stylised performance ritual enacted by two people into MMA HOWEVER , some of the technique, at the right moment , depending on what your partner does  AND ... its MMA  YOU should not go in the ring with one skill set . At least take a bit of punching and wrestling with you !

 

DUDES  ... its just silly !  I saw one guy trying to do it ... he had a full hakama on ( long divided skirt ) , he did okay and was willing to 'punch on' when he had to ... but that was not 'aikido' and he just looked silly trying to do all that in a  'dress' .

 

( hint , just tread on their hem   ) 

 

 I have managed to pull of a few 'aikido type moves'  in sparring , by doing what I described before . BUT I got training in a few martial arts  ... not just one . Sometimes I slip in a wrestling ,ove . Got one guy with a beautiful wing c hung punch .. but I never done wing chung 

 

After a while I realised a lot of those moves that are 'aikido' are actually within some of the higher kata I practised , but 'karate  people' didnt know their application .

 

before karate got degraded and modernised  a lot of that stuff vanished .  So now karate and  aikido techniques  seem very different . Also, look at this way ... it all depends how good ( experienced and smart - able to learn and apply that is )  you are :

 

Mny years back I watching a medieval battle thing . One guy was HOT ... very good fighter ,  I wa surprised at some of his moves that looked familar . later I asked him if he had ever done aikido or the type of karate I had been doing ., " he answered  " when you have been training and fighting long enough , its all the same , we are all constructed and move the same way , we all got the same type of joints  , strengths and weaknesses , we all got a centre of gravity .  "

 

Really, it would just be insane to go into any type of bout in MA ; MMA , ju-jitsu , karate, etc  and think you can do well by performing your 'training rituals' in there .

 

Even in sword ... I learnt a lot about sword in aikido, yet once when  a local club close down  , the last training session the instructor asked me to stay back . He wanted a sword match to see 'if I could really kill him' (he knew I trained elsewhere as  well - in training he often restricted me as a lot of my stuff was 'not aikido '      ) . He attacked  rushing in cutting down from above his head , before he got half way to me , i just side stepped , went sideways and did a one hand lunge . Got him with blade sideways between his ribs right over his heart , before he had even cut down .  he goes " Oh , that would have done it ." .  Then he wanted a another go , so I decide to attack . lifted my sword up above my head and rushed in , but then kicked my rubber crock off my foot into his face , he baulked , lost concentration , tried to bat it away with his sword. I cut down short and then  thrust in .... blade sideways , between his ribs , over his heart .   he said he had never seen those techniques before .  In class they would have been called 'rude' .   

 

They do a 'sword ritual' and it can be enjoyable . My other style will  match... one handed , undrawn , practice sneak and treacherous attacks , practice with sword in scarab , etc etc .   Oh yeah ... much of aikido actually comes from sword technique  and just those things we practised , eg, 'stop draw'  - someone is about to draw and you try to stop them , eg by seizing their wrist as it grabs the sword to draw it out from the belt .  Several ways of doing this are classic aikido moves , including the body movement  / placement  and even the  hand position is  still the same as -  if you where holding a sword .

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 12.9.2023 at 10:15 AM, Nungali said:

 

A few thoughts on the video .

 

Aikido is not cultish ... or a satanic cult    , not satanic but Aki-kai is definitely a cult . Its a family cult too .

 

We where told 'we'  ( paid up members of aki-kai aikido) had Mr Sugarno as our teacher ( the HG assigned 'boss' of Australia ) .  Not that he seems to have any presence , he chooses to live in new York. If you are a member , some of your fees will go to him and some to the descendants of Ueshiba  family who still hold ( or did then ) the 'business' .  Not to mention the shrine of the dead ancestor ( ueshiba) in each dojo that everyone bows to . The classes are stylised formal rituals  that often have no meaning or no meaning given  ( regarding some of the strange 'warm ups' ) .

 

Those 'warm ups' are typically aikido-specific qigong exercises, though.

 

Quote

the other point was the mention of Aikido in MMA .  Its just silly to try and take that stylised performance ritual enacted by two people into MMA HOWEVER , some of the technique, at the right moment , depending on what your partner does  AND ... its MMA  YOU should not go in the ring with one skill set . At least take a bit of punching and wrestling with you !

 

DUDES  ... its just silly !  I saw one guy trying to do it ... he had a full hakama on ( long divided skirt ) , he did okay and was willing to 'punch on' when he had to ... but that was not 'aikido' and he just looked silly trying to do all that in a  'dress' .

 

( hint , just tread on their hem   ) 

 

 I have managed to pull of a few 'aikido type moves'  in sparring , by doing what I described before . BUT I got training in a few martial arts  ... not just one . Sometimes I slip in a wrestling ,ove . Got one guy with a beautiful wing c hung punch .. but I never done wing chung 

 

After a while I realised a lot of those moves that are 'aikido' are actually within some of the higher kata I practised , but 'karate  people' didnt know their application .

 

before karate got degraded and modernised  a lot of that stuff vanished .  So now karate and  aikido techniques  seem very different .

 

There's this great instructor Tony Annesi who frequently drives his seminar attendants mad by deriving aiki techniques directly from karate kata. 😁

 

But you can actually find something like that in Funakoshi's Karate-do kyohan already. Some of those moves have a definite 'aiki feel' to them, nothing like modern karate -- and yet Funakoshi emphasizes that they should be studied "according to kata."  A statement I found rather curious back then in my Shotokan days, when none of the proper bunkai was generally known yet, and even high-ranking JKA instructors gave total BS explanations for most of the kata moves.

 

Annesi made a DVD on "Funakoshi's Nine Throws," an excerpt from which can be watched here:

 

 

I am not sure what happened to the soundtrack, YouTube may have stripped it off for copyright reasons. But you can switch the subtitles on for the second part of the video. The first part is self-explanatory anyway -- and if some of the throws don't look too impressive, that's simply because Annesi is going easy on his uke.

 

Quote

Also, look at this way ... it all depends how good ( experienced and smart - able to learn and apply that is )  you are :

 

Mny years back I watching a medieval battle thing . One guy was HOT ... very good fighter ,  I wa surprised at some of his moves that looked familar . later I asked him if he had ever done aikido or the type of karate I had been doing ., " he answered  " when you have been training and fighting long enough , its all the same , we are all constructed and move the same way , we all got the same type of joints  , strengths and weaknesses , we all got a centre of gravity .  "

 

Really, it would just be insane to go into any type of bout in MA ; MMA , ju-jitsu , karate, etc  and think you can do well by performing your 'training rituals' in there .

 

Even in sword ... I learnt a lot about sword in aikido, yet once when  a local club close down  , the last training session the instructor asked me to stay back . He wanted a sword match to see 'if I could really kill him' (he knew I trained elsewhere as  well - in training he often restricted me as a lot of my stuff was 'not aikido '      ) . He attacked  rushing in cutting down from above his head ,

 

Kylo Ren's opening move when he was taking on Luke Skywalker then...

 

 

A pretty suicidal technique if not set up properly! And yet in aikido, it's done all the time, with or without an actual (wooden) sword.

 

Another one of those stylized attacks that may have a purpose for learning basic movement patterns, and alright, there's a remote chance that some drunk would try to smash in your head with a bottle that way. However, I seriously doubt that any aikido-sensei would survive against an experienced sword fighter if all they knew was aiki-style 'sword technique'.

 

Quote

before he got half way to me , i just side stepped , went sideways and did a one hand lunge . Got him with blade sideways between his ribs right over his heart , before he had even cut down .  he goes " Oh , that would have done it ." .  Then he wanted a another go , so I decide to attack . lifted my sword up above my head and rushed in , but then kicked my rubber crock off my foot into his face ,

 

Alright, that puts a creative twist on an otherwise dumb move... 😁

 

Quote

he baulked , lost concentration , tried to bat it away with his sword. I cut down short and then  thrust in .... blade sideways , between his ribs , over his heart .   he said he had never seen those techniques before .  In class they would have been called 'rude' .   

 

They do a 'sword ritual' and it can be enjoyable . My other style will  match... one handed , undrawn , practice sneak and treacherous attacks , practice with sword in scarab , etc etc .   Oh yeah ... much of aikido actually comes from sword technique

 

It is said that the reason for this is that the samurai practising those moves to supplement his sword fighting techniques didn't have to learn a completely different skill set this way.

 

In a similar fashion, many of the kenpo moves that I practise can also be done with a stick or a knife in your hand -- better yet, with dual blades! 😁

 

Quote

  and just those things we practised , eg, 'stop draw'  - someone is about to draw and you try to stop them , eg by seizing their wrist as it grabs the sword to draw it out from the belt . 

 

The guy attempting to draw his sword can then trap your hand in return and use the sword handle to perform a really effective nikyo on you; then draw his sword while you're down on your knees with a damaged wrist; one of those moments when the downward strike with the sword comes in handy!

 

Quote

Several ways of doing this are classic aikido moves , including the body movement  / placement  and even the  hand position is  still the same as -  if you where holding a sword .

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Michael Sternbach

[Mark Foote]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:15 AM, Nungali said:

  Oh yeah ... much of aikido actually comes from sword technique  and just those things we practised , eg, 'stop draw'  - someone is about to draw and you try to stop them , eg by seizing their wrist as it grabs the sword to draw it out from the belt .  Several ways of doing this are classic aikido moves , including the body movement  / placement  and even the  hand position is  still the same as -  if you where holding a sword .

 

 

My favorite footage of Ueshiba showed him spinning a staff.  I know they practice staff moves in Aikido, but I've never seen anyone just spin a staff and move the way Ueshiba did.  Haven't been able to find the video online.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

But you can actually find something like that in Funakoshi's Karate-do kyohan already. Some of those moves have a definite 'aiki feel' to them, nothing like modern karate -- and yet Funakoshi emphasizes that they should be studied "according to kata."  A statement I found rather curious back then in my Shotokan days, when none of the proper bunkai was generally known yet, and even high-ranking JKA instructors gave total BS explanations for most of the kata moves.

 

 

My understanding is that jiu-jitsu was the original grappling art.  Certainly judo was drawn from jiu-jitsu, but I think Aikido as well.  

 

 

4 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Kylo Ren's opening move when he was taking on Luke Skywalker then...
 

 

 

God, Mark Hammel is bad!  At least Driver is making no attempt.  

I"ve been pleasantly surprised at Rosario Dawson's fight scenes, as Ashoka Tano in Star Wars.  At least she has basic stances!