Why study martial arts if you'd never fight back?

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Those 'warm ups' are typically aikido-specific qigong exercises, though.

 

Yes, and in my early days , instructor would explain that  . But later ... say after a  15 year break ( from Aiki-kai ) on my return people where instructed to do the movement ... well, not even instructed ; the instructor would start doing stuff and people would copy him .... they also seemed to have absolutely lost the use of the word 'ki'  - it seemed forbidden  .

 

Also some of the 'interesting feats ' I saw back then  where gone  and some of the new instructors seem confused when I described what the instructors had done 15 years earlier .

 

A lot of that was probably due to the incompetence of the instructor though .... I noticed he never asked me for a an unarmed 'match'     

 

 

There's this great instructor Tony Annesi who frequently drives his seminar attendants mad by deriving aiki techniques directly from karate kata. 😁

 

But you can actually find something like that in Funakoshi's Karate-do kyohan already. Some of those moves have a definite 'aiki feel' to them, nothing like modern karate -- and yet Funakoshi emphasizes that they should be studied "according to kata."  A statement I found rather curious back then in my Shotokan days, when none of the proper bunkai was generally known yet, and even high-ranking JKA instructors gave total BS explanations for most of the kata moves.

 

As Bart Simpson says  ;   "  Well, I knew  of it  .  "    That is , they knew there where other  applications for those moves * but they didnt know what they where or how / when to apply them .

 

* for readers that are unaware ; karate got changed and 'censored' / adapted for primary school  children to use as a physical education program / exercise , this is mostly the form of karate that went on to develop today .

 

Annesi made a DVD on "Funakoshi's Nine Throws," an excerpt from which can be watched here:

 

 

I am not sure what happened to the soundtrack, YouTube may have stripped it off for copyright reasons. But you can switch the subtitles on for the second part of the video. The first part is self-explanatory anyway -- and if some of the throws don't look too impressive, that's simply because Annesi is going easy on his uke.

 

 

Kylo Ren's opening move when he was taking on Luke Skywalker then...

 

 

A pretty suicidal technique if not set up properly! And yet in aikido, it's done all the time, with or without an actual (wooden) sword.

 

It can work fine , at the right time, if it is not an initial attack, as performed in training .  Of course there are exceptions to everything, I have even got my old 'instructor' with it  *  ..... but he was hopeless and understood little .

 

* come lumbering in with the sword above my head , ready to cut down and project a strong mental message ; ' I'm gonna pretend to cut down on his head but really thats a feint , I am going to do something really nasty and sneaky '  ... you could see the 'fidget' in his eyes .... just walked in rather slowly and  chop ... you're dead . He didnt really know what happened .

 

he did 'feel the force'  ...  its just that I   cheated     

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Another one of those stylized attacks that may have a purpose for learning basic movement patterns, and alright, there's a remote chance that some drunk would try to smash in your head with a bottle that way. However, I seriously doubt that any aikido-sensei would survive against an experienced sword fighter if all they knew was aiki-style 'sword technique'.

 

Or the remote chance that some stupid instructor  ( like the karate one mentioned above ) would try that move on you ,  with your own favorite training weapon  that you are very familiar with  ( wooden machete )  in a 'surprise attack' , during a supposed break from training , in a public park with people watching .   It was good for him as sometimes aikido guys would train nearby and he would always be dissing them to us and pointing out how inferior there techniques where  .... but his resultant torn shoulder tendons weren't that good for him .    I have never been able to figure it out  -  I have done that move so many times and every time , even with the most basic beginner  they roll away or crumple to my left .... he somehow tried to sit down to my right . I am glad two other guys from the club witnessed it , they assured him I didnt do anything nasty , I hardly used any force at all and sorta 'waltzed' around him .

 

 

 

 

Alright, that puts a creative twist on an otherwise dumb move... 😁

 

I did it a few times in the other sword class .... a rubber croc isnt too bad , traditionally it would be a   geta  -   wooden clog

And then ..... months later , he starts showing people a video of some 'expert' in Japan doing the same thing and claiming 'thats what we do ' .    Dude .... you never seen that before , thats what I do .... you cant do that as you always wear laced up training shoes . 

 

 

 

 

It is said that the reason for this is that the samurai practising those moves to supplement his sword fighting techniques didn't have to learn a completely different skill set this way.

 

In a similar fashion, many of the kenpo moves that I practise can also be done with a stick or a knife in your hand -- better yet, with dual blades! 😁

 

yep, thats also emphasized  in FMA .   Its one of the things I like to teach ;

 

I take up the gamma ; " Knock the thrust away (from another weapon ) with  a swipe and then come back the other way with the point  ." Then swap to sai and show the same application, then with a jo , then empty hand    ( Bruce Lee was VERY fast with that move  .... first spar , Enter the Dragon  - except he starts from static 'ready position'  ) .

 

 

The guy attempting to draw his sword can then trap your hand in return and use the sword handle to perform a really effective nikyo on you; then draw his sword while you're down on your knees with a damaged wrist; one of those moments when the downward strike with the sword comes in handy!

 

Thats one of the main ones we used to practice . I liked this one that I added . Everyone was used to that  and the other ones  so I started ; " What about this then ? "   as they went to draw , I would just press the palm of my hand into the sword handle not allowing them to draw it out . Due to the way I did it  they could not get any manipulation on to my wrist ... they where stumped !

So I showed them ... got one to try on me , he did it ....

 

so I just held the sword in the scarab with my left hand  ..... and  punched him in the face with my right          

 

As I used to say  ..... ' Your main weapon ! "    and point to my head . and no I dont mean a head butt  ! 

 

 

 

 

We should put on a seminar  together     

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

My favorite footage of Ueshiba showed him spinning a staff.  I know they practice staff moves in Aikido, but I've never seen anyone just spin a staff and move the way Ueshiba did.  Haven't been able to find the video online.

 

 

 

meh .... staff spinning .  Why ?     Every time someone tried that towards me I just thrust in wildly , you are bound to hit something and then they go haywire . With jo (shorter staff ) there are some times when a half or full spin might be required .

 

With longer staff 'bo' there is a disarming technique that uses a spinning action .  Its in a rare staff form we knew as ' makarbay ( sic ? ) no bo   ( from Ted Lange but he only taught the first half ) .  An old vid from Fusei Kise   shows a version of the whole form (so I am assuming it originates with their teacher  Hohan Soken .  Its got heaps of 'twirlies' in the second part .

 

then I found a vid of Kise giving an 'advanced 'weapons class  to a class of black belts , showing them how to twirl a staff ( again ... what for ! ???? ) , many of them looked like they never touched one before , could not even comfortably do one figure 8  forwards , let alone backwards  .  Then someone in class must have asked the same question ,  Kise then gets them to attack him with a downward 45 , and he twirls up and then attack with an upward 45 and he twirled down . In both cases he steps in twirling at the right moment , interceopts the others move , staffs lock, one slides, the attacker is bent over and either gets locked up or thrown away .

 

So I bought that into training to .  It doesnt really work though unless you are attached with a 45 the same way those guys  attacked  Kise ... mostly with elbows out and not held in close to the body .    

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

My understanding is that jiu-jitsu was the original grappling art.  Certainly judo was drawn from jiu-jitsu, but I think Aikido as well.  

 

from 'Daito-ryu'

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

God, Mark Hammel is bad!  At least Driver is making no attempt.  

I"ve been pleasantly surprised at Rosario Dawson's fight scenes, as Ashoka Tano in Star Wars.  At least she has basic stances!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

On 12.9.2023 at 4:49 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

"crazed knife-wielding", glad kote-gaeshi worked for you! 

 

Guess what... So was I! 🍀😅😁

 

On 12.9.2023 at 4:49 AM, Mark Foote said:

"Turn the hips, fingers down to the floor" says the video reminding me of what kote-gaeshi is.

The video had some amazing moments--I had no idea that anyone was trying to free-spar Aikido.  Not all that impressed by what was on the video there--like a judo match but without the dramatic moment when somebody gets a grip and goes for it.  Except for one kote-gaeshi.

 

Besides tomiki/shodokan aikido, the yoseikan style does free-sparring too. Practitioners even put protective gear on, and the techniques employed are sometimes pretty impressive -- then again, yoseikan is more of a mixed martial art, really, as it incorporates elements from judo and karate.

 

On 12.9.2023 at 4:49 AM, Mark Foote said:

He's advocating for sweeps in Aikido sparring.  That was the throw of the dojo, in my high school years--our teacher's throw.   We all learned it.  His was particularly wonderful to be thrown with.

 

In many situations, leg sweeps indeed come in very handy (LOL). They even made it into modern shotokan (sport) karate.

 

On 12.9.2023 at 4:49 AM, Mark Foote said:

Have we said enough, about why study martial arts if you'd never fight back?  Ha ha! (it's the teachers, find a good one!).

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 14.9.2023 at 7:05 PM, Mark Foote said:

My favorite footage of Ueshiba showed him spinning a staff.  I know they practice staff moves in Aikido, but I've never seen anyone just spin a staff and move the way Ueshiba did.  Haven't been able to find the video online.

 

Yes, the staff (both short and long version) is the only other weapon besides the sword that is regularly employed in aikido practice. 

 

Not sure if what you saw is included in this compilation, but anyway, it may be worth watching.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

43 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes, the staff (both short and long version) is the only other weapon besides the sword that is regularly employed in aikido practice. 

 

Not sure if what you saw is included in this compilation, but anyway, it may be worth watching.

 

 

Thanks for that.  My memory is that he was standing in a dojo, fairly well let, and spinning at shoulder height and overhead.  I'm thinking I must have seen this in the brief period of time when I was taking Aikido, very brief period of time, at the dojo.  Not the age of the internet.  

Looked at a lot of video of Ueshiba doing stick form just now, maybe I'm mis-remembering--the pointed stick routine is impressive.  What got me about the video I saw was how much he enjoyed just spinning the stick.  That's what stuck with me.  

I see that the form of jiu-jitsu that gave rise to Aikido was daito-ryu, but jiu-jitsu was around for centuries, as I'm sure you would agree.  I took six months of jiu-jitsu at a local YMCA, concurrent with judo, when I was in high school.

Like this Britannica entry:

 

jujitsu, Japanese jūjitsu (“gentle art”), also spelled jujutsu, also called yawara, form of martial art and method of fighting that makes use of few or no weapons and employs holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue an opponent. It evolved among the warrior class (bushi, or samurai) in Japan from about the 17th century. Designed to complement a warrior’s swordsmanship in combat, it was a necessarily ruthless style, with the usual object of warfare: crippling or killing an antagonist. Jujitsu was a general name for many systems of fighting involving techniques of hitting, kicking, kneeing, throwing, choking, immobilizing holds, and use of certain weapons. Central to these systems was the concept jū, from a Chinese character commonly interpreted as “gentle”—gentle, however, in the sense of bending or yielding to an opponent’s direction of attack while attempting to control it. Also involved was the use of hard or tough parts of the body (e.g., knuckles, fists, elbows, and knees) against an enemy’s vulnerable points. Jujitsu declined after the Satsuma Rebellion of 1877, but it has enjoyed renewed popularity since the 1990s.

 

Don't know where I got the extra "i", I guess I stand corrected!

Edited September 15, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Michael Sternbach]

On 14.9.2023 at 7:19 PM, Mark Foote said:

My understanding is that jiu-jitsu was the original grappling art.  Certainly judo was drawn from jiu-jitsu, but I think Aikido as well.  

 

That depends on your definition of 'original'. Many of the ju-jitsu, aiki-jitsu/daito-ryu, and Okinawan karate's tuite techniques were actually drawn from Chinese chin'na -- the grappling part of various kung fu styles.

 

It goes without saying that the moves were adapted to fit into the respective styles. Thus, it is quite conceivable that part of a given repertoire was modified or specifically selected to align with the samurai's armed techniques.

 

Regardless... At the time I was training aikido in Kyoto -- when I still knew much less about martial arts history than I do today --, I once happened to watch a Hongkong movie featuring a skillful chin'na practitioner. And I was really surprised to see him do a number of  things that were so similar to what I was learning in the dojo!

 

And that was not simply because "people everywhere have four limbs, and there are only so many ways that the human body can move"!

 

To illustrate, in a certain Thai grappling art, I found plenty of unique techniques that I hadn't seen in any of the quite numerous systems that (for research purposes) I looked into.

 

Quote

God, Mark Hammel is bad!  At least Driver is making no attempt.  

 

Yeah... Not all the fight scenes in the Star Wars movies are actually that hot.

 

Quote

I"ve been pleasantly surprised at Rosario Dawson's fight scenes, as Ashoka Tano in Star Wars.  At least she has basic stances!

 

Yep! I like her too.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes, the staff (both short and long version) is the only other weapon besides the sword that is regularly employed in aikido practice. 

 

IME it was three weapons ; jo sword and tanto ... they where the three on the 'altar'   ('shoman') . You have seen longer staff used by aikido ?   No one wanted to touch one  , again  IME .

 

I found them very 'in the box' and not wanting to peep outside ;    do you guys want to try a long staff, a bo ?

" Oh, no thankyou , we do not use those. "

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Not sure if what you saw is included in this compilation, but anyway, it may be worth watching.

 

 

 

 Towards the end of my training with that last club (not aikido ) I really started to enjoy the use of the bo and its advantages and wide range of applications ... but that took a fair  bit of practice and familiarity to realise .

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

IME it was three weapons ; jo sword and tanto ... they where the three on the 'altar'   ('shoman') . You have seen longer staff used by aikido ?   No one wanted to touch one  , again  IME .

 

I found them very 'in the box' and not wanting to peep outside ;    do you guys want to try a long staff, a bo ?

" Oh, no thankyou , we do not use those. "

 

 

My taiji teacher taught us every weapon under the sun.  Jian (straight sword), dao (broadsword), ji (halberd), tieshan (martial fan), gun (not the one that shoots -- a 2 meters long staff), bang (short stick), cane (two kinds) and even bodhi tree seeds...  and car keys.  

 

Of course he would ran into all kinds of students and among them those with all kinds of new age deviations of their psyche which they owe to brainwashing and ignorance and woefully mistake for "peacefulness."  (In my experience they are some of the least peaceful, most entitled and aggressive folks one might meet in any group.)  Once an idiot made a scene about the fan being too loud and endangering her hearing!  Well...  it does open and close (many times in the course of the practice) with a beautiful explosive snap which is the first thing you learn about using it -- it partially serves the same purpose as some other arts' intimidating war cries like Kiai! or Uukhai! -- and partially is the beginning of learning to use it with power...  besides it's strikingly beautiful to open it like that.  The indoor fan practice was cancelled because of that idiot...  conflict avoidance, a real high level MA personality...   

Edited September 16, 2023 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

My taiji teacher taught us every weapon under the sun.  Jian (straight sword), dao (broadsword), ji (halberd), tieshan (martial fan), gun (not the one that shoots -- a 2 meters long staff), bang (short stick), cane (two kinds) and even bodhi tree seeds...  and car keys.  

 

So not the  ' crescent moon sword '   ?    

 

I have little familiarity with Chinese weapons ... excepting the zi-wu (子午) mandarin duck axe  :

 

lesson  1.

 Chop ducks head off ,  with axe pluck and gut and chop into pieces .   Marinate in mandarin juice and 5 spice .  Slowly render in a pan, skin side down, occasionally tipping off the fat  about 20 mins until skin is golden and crisp .  Turn and sear the other side , allowing the juices to remain in the pan . remove duck to roasting pan ,  add sliver of mandarin peel and some honey to the pan juices, reduce  to a glaze and pour over duck , low roast for 10 mins .

 

 

 

Quote

 

Of course he would ran into all kinds of students and among them those with all kinds of new age deviations of their psyche which they owe to brainwashing and ignorance and woefully mistake for "peacefulness."  (In my experience they are some of the least peaceful, most entitled and aggressive folks one might meet in any group.)  Once an idiot made a scene about the fan being too loud and endangering her hearing!  Well...  it does open and close (many times in the course of the practice) with a beautiful explosive snap which is the first thing you learn about using it -- it partially serves the same purpose as some other arts' intimidating war cries like Kiai! or Uukhai! -- and partially is the beginning of learning to use it with power...  besides it's strikingly beautiful to open it like that.  The indoor fan practice was cancelled because of that idiot...  conflict avoidance, a real high level MA personality...   

 

yes , this is the way of the world now ; should she have put ear plugs in , like one would when offended by any other loud noise ? No ... everyone else should never practice with a fan again in 'her'   class .   

 

I know what I would be doing   ... 

 

 

Then   again, maybe she had a phobia      ..... apparently anything can be phobia nowadays ... anything you dont like or dont want to do

 

hang on .....  < checking > .... yep  ;

 

Anemophobia

 

... or if one finds that hard to remember it also goes under another name ....  ( wait for it  ) .... 

 

Fanaphobia.

 

 I wonder what the fear of paying back people money they lent you is called  ?   

 

-  yep, we got that too ;  Chrometophobia,  ... which strangely enough  " is a relatively unknown phobia that has only been diagnosed in a handful of people "  . 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Nungali

[Ajay0]

Sun Tzu in the Art of War, had stated ...

 

'The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. "

If this indeed the case, the best warrior ever would be Mahavira, the founder of Jainism and who is known for his teachings of nonviolence and ahimsa...

 

https://www.freepressjournal.in/spirituality/guiding-light-by-sri-sri-ravi-shankar-breathing-ahimsa

 

Quote

 

What is the effect of ahimsa? Patanjali Maharishi gives a beautiful explanation in Sutra 35: Ahimsapratishtayam tatsannidhau vairatyagaha, which means “When a person is established in non-violence, then violence is dropped in his or her presence.”

 

If you are established in non-violence, in your very presence, violence will be dropped by other creatures. For example, someone comes to attack you. As soon as they come near you, because your vibrations are totally non-violent, they drop down. They stop being violent. 

 

Lord Mahavira emphasises on ahimsa. It is said that whenever he walked, twenty kilometers around him, people would stop being violent. The story goes even to that extent and says even the thorns would not prick anybody but would instead become soft.

 

If you ask me, this is the ultimate art of fighting without fighting. If  your very presence can inspire nonviolence in the combatant opposing you and make him an ally instead, that is the ultimate self-defense as well as diplomatic ability.

 

Napoleon, considered the greatest military general ever , has also stated similarly...

 

"There are only two forces in the world, the sword and the spirit. In the long run the sword will always be conquered by the spirit."

 

I would say it is because of this fact that eastern martial arts had a philosophical and spiritual component to them, understanding the limitations of the merely physical. 

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

So not the  ' crescent moon sword '   ?    

 

I had to look that up.  Something from a videogame, turns out.  I don't think I played video games since Super Mario, and the most memorable weapons there were magic mushrooms...

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

I have little familiarity with Chinese weapons ... excepting the zi-wu (子午) mandarin duck axe  :

 

lesson  1.

 Chop ducks head off ,  with axe pluck and gut and chop into pieces .   Marinate in mandarin juice and 5 spice .  Slowly render in a pan, skin side down, occasionally tipping off the fat  about 20 mins until skin is golden and crisp .  Turn and sear the other side , allowing the juices to remain in the pan . remove duck to roasting pan ,  add sliver of mandarin peel and some honey to the pan juices, reduce  to a glaze and pour over duck , low roast for 10 mins .

 

  

Another one I've never heard of.  Didn't know they eat mandarin ducks, the feng shui symbol of love!  

My main Chinese kitchen utensil is a caidao, and it gets a lot of use.  It's very versatile and in a pinch can replace 90% of kitchen equipment, from cleaver/axe to chef's knife to meat grinder to garlic press to herbs/spices pulverizer, but I didn't learn to use it in a taiji class, I watched chefs on youtube.  And of course it's used as a weapon in kung fu movies whenever action moves to the kitchen.  In this capacity it's practically a guillotine.

 

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Then   again, maybe she had a phobia      ..... apparently anything can be phobia nowadays ... anything you dont like or dont want to do

 

hang on .....  < checking > .... yep  ;

 

Anemophobia

 

... or if one finds that hard to remember it also goes under another name ....  ( wait for it  ) .... 

 

Fanaphobia.

 

 I wonder what the fear of paying back people money they lent you is called  ?   

 

-  yep, we got that too ;  Chrometophobia,  ... which strangely enough  " is a relatively unknown phobia that has only been diagnosed in a handful of people "  . 

  

Careful now.  This could get you diagnosed with Phobophobia.  

 

 

[Nungali]

Thank you !   That is what I will be telling people from now on what i suffer from .

 

1. Phobophobia

2. Political correctophobia

3. Urbanophobia .

 

All can be cured with one remedy ;

 

 

 

[old3bob]

At least up on the log above the water you should be able to see them coming...(if you also have arachnophobia which I have a minor case of)  

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

Really ?  You never heard of the 'North American log runner '   ? 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

37 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Really ?  You never heard of the 'North American log runner '   ? 

 

 

nope, but small, medium or big they can all be scary, especially if one doesn't know details about them!

[Michael Sternbach]

On 14.9.2023 at 11:35 PM, Nungali said:

 

It can work fine , at the right time, if it is not an initial attack, as performed in training .  Of course there are exceptions to everything, I have even got my old 'instructor' with it  *  ..... but he was hopeless and understood little .

 

* come lumbering in with the sword above my head , ready to cut down and project a strong mental message ; ' I'm gonna pretend to cut down on his head but really thats a feint , I am going to do something really nasty and sneaky '  ... you could see the 'fidget' in his eyes .... just walked in rather slowly and  chop ... you're dead . He didnt really know what happened .

 

he did 'feel the force'  ...  its just that I   cheated     

 

Yeah, as I mentioned myself, the downward sword strike can be an effective move if set up properly, or as part of a combination from which it would flow naturally. 

 

We are doing this kind of thing all the time in kenpo: Move our arms in an unceasing series of parries and strikes where one technique leads to the next without any wasted motion. So we get to use all kinds of different trajectories and hand formations to connect to a variety of sensitive targets all over the body. And this principle is also applied to how we use our legs.

 

(And yes, Filipino and Indonesian styles follow similar principles.)

 

This is a far cry from the stop-and-go kind of action (involving mostly just straight punches, backfists, front and roundhouse kicks) typically seen in sport karate!

 

However, it is quite in line with original Okinawan karate styles (that are sometimes called kempo as well, only the transcription to Western letters is slightly different--'m' in lieu of 'n').

 

The Hawaiian kenpo styles are actually linked to Choki Motobu, a renowned street fighter and advocate of karate as a combat art. He was a direct rival of Funakoshi; it doesn't take too much imagination to understand why the two masters didn't get on with each other too well! 😆

 

I actually believe that, while Okinawan karate was exported to the Japanese mainland to become a sport, via James Mitose it transgressed to Hawaii, retaining its martial essence. Surely that's a simplification, but an essential insight nonetheless in my view.

 

Quote

We should put on a seminar  together     

 

Great idea, I like it! 🙂 Australia isn't exactly just around the corner from where I am located, but perhaps we could teach this as a webinar via a Zoom session together? 🤔

Edited September 18, 2023 by Michael Sternbach