Mizner and Mitchell - the bromance continues

[Apech]

 

There's a reference in this podcast to vajrayana groups micro dosing LSD !!!  As far as I know this (apart from being a fifth precept infringement) would be a complete no-no. 1.33.00 time stamp.

 

Someone commented on youtube about the stillness of Mizner compared to damo as if this is a sign of greater accomplishment ... I wonder what people think.  Damo is naturally very fidgety in many of his vids I have noticed - and I get the impression in this discussion that he defers to Mizner quite a lot.

 

I've given this tendency they have to circle back to vajrayana critiques and also to dismiss scholarship as an achievement over practical skills, some thought.  Tibetan Buddhism is a very broad school and includes some people who do not practice at all (but still follow the precepts in daily life) in a spectrum to full time practitioners in caves who do nothing but practice.  Lamas are made lamas sometimes for scholarship rather than meditative mastery - and occasionally for just being born into the right family (or even for having enough money!).  In this sense like every other human activity there is corruption and decisions made for convenience rather than truth.  This is a shame - especially for those of us who revere the Dharma.  Monastic scholasticism became a virtue when Buddhism comprised a huge volume of texts and a number of variant philosophical views.  In a sense it needed its librarians just to keep on top of the subject.  But every form of Buddhism has this 'tension' between the scholastics and the wandering mystics - this is just how it is.

 

As to visualisation this is a more important subject.  Certainly it would be wrong to think that simply picturing mentally things like channels and drops is the actual practice.  But it is well known that vajrayana sadhanas and so on involve a lot of sometimes complex visualisations - or to put it another way using the mind to visualise is a key component to vajrayana.  One of the reasons for this is that marshalling mental energy or aligning the mind is important.  In the same way that chanting or repeating mantras focusses certain aspects of the mind then so too do visualisations - and that mental energy can be expressed as both analytic thought and imaginative thought.  For instance the difference between everyday interactions with the world and dreaming.  Mind is a thorny subject because we tend to look at that small portion of it which is conscious thought - while properly understood mind is something like an infinite field of energy/awareness (continuum of buddha-nature) - so we might dismiss 'mind' as an interference if we conceive of it only in the small sense.

 

I liked what they said about sila/bhavana ... i.e. sort your life out - this is a key to training in my understanding in that you need a life reasonably free of problems and drama before you can sit properly.  Of course there's a balance and feedback since if you do sit daily then the probelms are more likely to resolve easily.

 

Be interested in what other people think.

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

these two were pushing just neidan and taichee. now they are  tibetan experts too?  wow what they will think of next! and i particularly liked the integrity part 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

to put it another way using the mind to visualise is a key component to vajrayana. 

the mind is used to a certain extent thats true. it is a necessary condition. but an insufficient one.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Vajra Fist]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

There's a reference in this podcast to vajrayana groups micro dosing LSD !!!  As far as I know this (apart from being a fifth precept infringement) would be a complete no-no. 1.33.00 time stamp.

 

Didn't Mizner get hammered on whiskey the last time they met? Unusual behaviour for someone who calls themself Ajahn. 

 

Also the fifth precept is interpreted differently. In Japanese Buddhism it's interpreted as a recommendation against intoxication, rather than against intoxicants.

 

I'm not sure whether microdosing LSD falls into that category. My own experience with very low dose mushrooms didn't involve any intoxication, but rather a very subtle, sub-perceptual mood improvement. I don't do it regularly, or see it as any aid to my practice, but I can see the therapeutic benefits for those suffering from depression or else the sense that they're trapped in a rut.

 

But playing devil's advocate, there may be something to those cheeky yogis. Neuroscience tells us that mushrooms work by quietening the default mode network, which is the part of the brain associated with the sense of self. While I'm not saying mushrooms offer any form of lasting spiritual benefit, that is after all aligned with the goal of buddhism - the illusion of a self being the root of ignorance and suffering.

 

I'll give this podcast a listen. But I find them very smug and self-congratulatory, and unfortunately that rubs me up the wrong way. I'm willing to accept though that's just the three poisons at work on me, and others may find them inspiring and helpful in their commentary.

 

 

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

One of the reasons for this is that marshalling mental energy or aligning the mind is important

 

I can't remember who said it, but I heard a vajrayana teacher say that visualisation is how the theravada concept of shamatha is practiced within their tradition.

 

I personally feel the breath is more useful as an object, but I'm not willing to discount an entire tradition of a millenia just because I don't have an affinity for its methods.

[idquest]

There is a perception of non-dual light/dao and there are preliminary practices that lead to this perception. Among the practices that lead to the perception are numerous neigong techniques, and visualization is no worse than any of those techniques. The only difference is that neigong trains 'feeling' area of brain, and visualization trains a different area of brain. So for the completeness,  one needs both. As for perception of the NDL/dao - one needs none.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Vajra Fist said:

I can't remember who said it, but I heard a vajrayana teacher say that visualisation is how the theravada concept of shamatha is practiced within their tradition.

 

I personally feel the breath is more useful as an object, but I'm not willing to discount an entire tradition of a millenia just because I don't have an affinity for its methods.

 

Your statement is true about visualization and the Vajrayana practices. The primary difference between using the breath and a visualization is that the visualization includes a symbolic overlay, so can have another layer that can be more directed or specific in intent. Having said that, in the Tibetan Vajrayana tradition it is meditation WITHOUT an object (Dzogchen) that is the supreme practice. 

 

I don't honestly think that the object matters. Finding an object (when you are practicing with an object) that is inspiring or comfortable is more important. When you notice that the object has dropped away and the mind is quiet, just rest in that stillness. 

[Apech]

On 9/10/2023 at 2:04 PM, Taoist Texts said:

these two were pushing just neidan and taichee. now they are  tibetan experts too?  wow what they will think of next! and i particularly liked the integrity part 

the mind is used to a certain extent thats true. it is a necessary condition. but an insufficient one.

 

 

Well you are being very precise as always.  What perhaps I should have said is that visualisation is a technique frequently employed in vajrayana.

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Didn't Mizner get hammered on whiskey the last time they met? Unusual behaviour for someone who calls themself Ajahn. 

 

Also the fifth precept is interpreted differently. In Japanese Buddhism it's interpreted as a recommendation against intoxication, rather than against intoxicants.

 

I'm not sure whether microdosing LSD falls into that category. My own experience with very low dose mushrooms didn't involve any intoxication, but rather a very subtle, sub-perceptual mood improvement. I don't do it regularly, or see it as any aid to my practice, but I can see the therapeutic benefits for those suffering from depression or else the sense that they're trapped in a rut.

 

But playing devil's advocate, there may be something to those cheeky yogis. Neuroscience tells us that mushrooms work by quietening the default mode network, which is the part of the brain associated with the sense of self. While I'm not saying mushrooms offer any form of lasting spiritual benefit, that is after all aligned with the goal of buddhism - the illusion of a self being the root of ignorance and suffering.

 

I'll give this podcast a listen. But I find them very smug and self-congratulatory, and unfortunately that rubs me up the wrong way. I'm willing to accept though that's just the three poisons at work on me, and others may find them inspiring and helpful in their commentary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The precept I took in Tibetan Buddhism is not to become intoxicated (as you suggest) - clearly I decided from then on that I must test out the boundaries of this vow by drinking quantities of red wine to see exactly where and when a breach might occur.  It is an ongoing experiment which may take years to complete

 

I think the problem with the micro-dosing of LSD or anything as part of a practice is that it is employing a non-standard approach to sadhanas for instance and could or most probably would lead to uncertain and misleading results.  For instance how does one distinguish between the effect of LSD and the results of the sadhana itself?

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

I can't remember who said it, but I heard a vajrayana teacher say that visualisation is how the theravada concept of shamatha is practiced within their tradition.

 

I personally feel the breath is more useful as an object, but I'm not willing to discount an entire tradition of a millenia just because I don't have an affinity for its methods.

 

There are any number of techniques employed in shamatha including using objects or visualised objects or as you say, more commonly breath and breath counting.  

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

What perhaps I should have said is that visualisation is a technique frequently employed in vajrayana.

yes thats true. and my point wasthat visualization is not done by the mind only. there is another secret ingredient to it besides the mind. (and no it is not not the object, and not breath)

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

I think the problem with the micro-dosing of LSD or anything as part of a practice is that it is employing a non-standard approach to sadhanas for instance and could or most probably would lead to uncertain and misleading results.  For instance how does one distinguish between the effect of LSD and the results of the sadhana itself?

 

So they're using LSD to enhance their capacity to visualise, and therefore stabilise their object of visualisation and therefore absorption?

 

It's a weird one, as an outsider to the tradition, I wouldn't have a real understanding of the drawbacks of such an approach. 

 

But when you're using the breath in shamatha, samadhi can arise, and samadhi feels very much like the natural state.

 

Your sense of yourself as the subject and the breath as the object breaks down. There is only the raw experience of the breath as it happens. It is reality, only more so.

 

I don't know whether the state that arises from using a microdose of LSD to aid practice would feel like a natural state, or an altered state. Or whether visualisation as shamatha feels like the natural state of mind, even without psychedelics.

 

-- as an additional note, techniques like fire kasina are used within theravada, and result in a very strong improvement in the mind's capability to visualise. You can listen to podcasts with Daniel Ingram on this. Something like that would seem to be an aid to vajrayana visualisation practice, in the same way as what some practitioners may be wanting to achieve through LSD.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes thats true. and my point wasthat visualization is not done by the mind only. there is another secret ingredient to it besides the mind. (and no it is not not the object, and not breath)

[Cobie]

 

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… there is another secret ingredient to it besides …. (and no it is not …

 

 Don’t worry, I won’t ask.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Cobie

[blue eyed snake]

On 10-9-2023 at 1:34 PM, Apech said:

There's a reference in this podcast to vajrayana groups micro dosing LSD !!!  As far as I know this (apart from being a fifth precept infringement) would be a complete no-no. 1.33.00 time stamp.

 

't would be a big nono from my teacher too, he would say something like: the goal is to see reality, to clean that window of drama and ruminating about daily stuff so as to see through it. By using psycho-active substances like that you trick yourself into thinking that you see through that window, but you are deluding yourself.

 

Maybe I will see that video but somehow the small part I did see  does not sit well with me.

 

I have used both LSD and psilocybin in my younger years, in small doses as it is easy to push my system over. Looking back...it was nice but very different form the stuff i experienced later with sitting and training. The latter stuff was somehow more...err....getting me out of a groove where the former was more like having a nice holiday.

 

But will always remember how a barren tree in autumn suddenly bloomed before my eyes and was laden with tiny pink flowers.

 

[Sahaja]

My reservations with practices using lots of imagination or lots of intention is that they may distract from the awareness of real cues that arise in practice. If your mind is very busy creating things  you might miss or ignore something or screen out something that is actually arising that will teach or show you something important.  Also the amount of energy that accompanies these cues in my experience is inversely proportional to the amount of intention used. The more you back off with the intention the stronger they manifest. This may not only affect perception of these cues but possibly some of their transformational aspect as well. 

my experiences with psychedelics in my youth makes me circumspect about their use in spiritual practice. I saw how they could weaken certain mental constructs and inhibitions that might provide some initial benefit but beyond that they seemed to me to be more like experimenting with mental illness than doing sadhana. 

[Apech]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:20 AM, Sahaja said:

My reservations with practices using lots of imagination or lots of intention is that they may distract from the awareness of real cues that arise in practice. If your mind is very busy creating things  you might miss or ignore something or screen out something that is actually arising that will teach or show you something important.  Also the amount of energy that accompanies these cues in my experience is inversely proportional to the amount of intention used. The more you back off with the intention the stronger they manifest. This may not only affect perception of these cues but possibly some of their transformational aspect as well. 

my experiences with psychedelics in my youth makes me circumspect about their use in spiritual practice. I saw how they could weaken certain mental constructs and inhibitions that might provide some initial benefit but beyond that they seemed to me to be more like experimenting with mental illness than doing sadhana. 

 

I think this is a complex subject.  The first point to make is, I think that the mind naturally visualises in dreams or just when thinking of an object and seeing it in your mind.  Some people claim not to do this, just as some people claim not to dream.  I've met a couple of people with this position which at first I found astounding as I am quite a visual thinker and dream a lot.  Since I am sure this is a natural function of our minds I can only conclude that these people either are blocked or just have never learned to notice their visual perceptions.

 

When I first learned meditation I tried visualisation techniques - but quickly dropped them.  In fact it was when I dropped any intermediary technique including counting breaths etc. that I made a significant breakthrough.  Years later when I started Vajrayana practice there was a lot of emphsis on visualisation - which I must admit I didn't take particularly seriously (at first).  I was very casual about it - but in the end I found this was probably the right approach.  For instance if someone says think of your mother or other loved one and an image of them comes up - you don't put any effort in.  Similarly if say I study a picture of a yidam like Chenrezig for some time - then when I image the same on my head or in front of me the image just pops up fully formed with more or less no effort.

 

I think that Damo and Mizner are mistaking the techniques used with visualisation with 'just imagining'.  So for instance just thinking of a line of energy going up your spine or whatever this is unlikely to have any result at all.  So they a right about that.  In fact the result would be inhibiting because it would block your ability to relate to the energy flow directly.

 

However in meditation generally, the whole of the mind has to be encompassed - and this includes visual thought-forms and images.  If as you say you rest your intent - preferably in the LDT - then the mind is released and images can flow in a more distinct and vivid forms.  A kind of controlled day dreaming.  This becomes important when trying to become unified or whole, since all of your mind/body must be engaged.

 

 

[Neirong]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think that Damo and Mizner are mistaking the techniques used with visualisation with 'just imagining'. 

Utter incompetence. It might be more of a question for their teacher, Mark Rasmus, as they both seem to be merely parroting his broken teachings. I guess MR learned all he knows from books, because he is literally selling a course called 40 lessons of Bardon Hermetics, which comes from Bardon book, the book which is full of errors and mistakes.
 

What I find amusing in this entire story is that the methods they teach are based entirely on imagination, which turns it all into a case of projecting — an imaginary lineage that does not actually exist with imaginary chinese teachers, imaginary martial arts practices, imaginary results, imaginary internal arts, and many other elements are both imaginary and cultish. People make progress inside imaginary realm, while in real world all they get is an ego growth (implosion) and mental ailments. So far, I have seen more negative results than neutral. There is not an ounce of evidence regarding any abilities or spiritual progress in any of the students, senior teachers, or even themselves. You cannot build a foundation in internal arts based on lies, deception and cult belief.

However, there are thousands of documented instances of them running persona-based cults and engaging in deceptive, misleading practices.
I am not sure, why they are still being mentioned in commentary discussion to any of the internal practices.

Here are 2 latest things, I got in the DMs. Test your critical thinking, do you see a problem here?
 

[Bindi]

15 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think this is a complex subject.  The first point to make is, I think that the mind naturally visualises in dreams or just when thinking of an object and seeing it in your mind.  Some people claim not to do this, just as some people claim not to dream.  I've met a couple of people with this position which at first I found astounding as I am quite a visual thinker and dream a lot.  Since I am sure this is a natural function of our minds I can only conclude that these people either are blocked or just have never learned to notice their visual perceptions.

 

When I first learned meditation I tried visualisation techniques - but quickly dropped them.  In fact it was when I dropped any intermediary technique including counting breaths etc. that I made a significant breakthrough.  Years later when I started Vajrayana practice there was a lot of emphsis on visualisation - which I must admit I didn't take particularly seriously (at first).  I was very casual about it - but in the end I found this was probably the right approach.  For instance if someone says think of your mother or other loved one and an image of them comes up - you don't put any effort in.  Similarly if say I study a picture of a yidam like Chenrezig for some time - then when I image the same on my head or in front of me the image just pops up fully formed with more or less no effort.

 

I think that Damo and Mizner are mistaking the techniques used with visualisation with 'just imagining'.  So for instance just thinking of a line of energy going up your spine or whatever this is unlikely to have any result at all.  So they a right about that.  In fact the result would be inhibiting because it would block your ability to relate to the energy flow directly.

 

However in meditation generally, the whole of the mind has to be encompassed - and this includes visual thought-forms and images.  If as you say you rest your intent - preferably in the LDT - then the mind is released and images can flow in a more distinct and vivid forms.  A kind of controlled day dreaming.  This becomes important when trying to become unified or whole, since all of your mind/body must be engaged.

 

 

 

Just out of interest, I first noticed what I assume is my LDT by how it felt, and I rested awareness on that sensation because there was nothing else that stood out like that sensation-wise. I’d never heard of dantians etc, and it was only decades later I first read the word dantian. Not knowing any better I concentrated attention on that point for decades! Now I’m grateful for that naïveté and simplicity. 

[blue eyed snake]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think this is a complex subject.  The first point to make is, I think that the mind naturally visualises in dreams or just when thinking of an object and seeing it in your mind.  Some people claim not to do this, just as some people claim not to dream.  I've met a couple of people with this position which at first I found astounding as I am quite a visual thinker and dream a lot.  Since I am sure this is a natural function of our minds I can only conclude that these people either are blocked or just have never learned to notice their visual perceptions. 

 

hm... I've thought along those lines earlier in my live but now I think, brains are just as individual as bodies, that someones brain works different from yours does not mean it is blocked or things like that.

 

20 hours ago, Apech said:

When I first learned meditation I tried visualisation techniques - but quickly dropped them.  In fact it was when I dropped any intermediary technique including counting breaths etc. that I made a significant breakthrough.  Years later when I started Vajrayana practice there was a lot of emphsis on visualisation - which I must admit I didn't take particularly seriously (at first).  I was very casual about it - but in the end I found this was probably the right approach.  For instance if someone says think of your mother or other loved one and an image of them comes up - you don't put any effort in.  Similarly if say I study a picture of a yidam like Chenrezig for some time - then when I image the same on my head or in front of me the image just pops up fully formed with more or less no effort.

 

Thinking of a loved one an image pops up- i think there pops up more then just an image, a conglomerate of memories, emotions, smells etc plus, for those who can easily visualize, an image. For most people thinking of that visual, the face of your mom, is the door into the whole, encompassing all senses, memory.

For a blind person maybe remembering the smell of their mom, or the specific sound of her voice could be the door into the complete memory.

 

following that line of thought, for people who are invested in/ working with the meaning of Chenrezig ( which I have totally no idea of, following my own path) it seems reasonable that conjuring up the image of it will open the door to all that it encompasses for the meditator who is visualizing it.

 

20 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think that Damo and Mizner are mistaking the techniques used with visualisation with 'just imagining'.  So for instance just thinking of a line of energy going up your spine or whatever this is unlikely to have any result at all.  So they a right about that.  In fact the result would be inhibiting because it would block your ability to relate to the energy flow directly.

 

yes, have listened to it yesterday evening,  either they are still quite young or I am ancient. 

 

20 hours ago, Apech said:

 

However in meditation generally, the whole of the mind has to be encompassed - and this includes visual thought-forms and images.  If as you say you rest your intent - preferably in the LDT - then the mind is released and images can flow in a more distinct and vivid forms.  A kind of controlled day dreaming.  This becomes important when trying to become unified or whole, since all of your mind/body must be engaged.

 

 

yes, during standing meditation images of all kind can come up, among them awareness of the energetic "bubble" that is surrounding ( and pervading) the physical body. Part of this awareness comes as a visual signal and as such gets a place in the visual memory.

 

When doing standing I can call up that visual memory from my brain and open the 'door' to the rest of that memory which makes entering that awareness a whole lot easier then the first times it happened.

 

These are my current ideas,

 

also,

 

everything I've thought of until know turned out to be discarded later as: "oh my, that was totally beside the point"

so my guess is that this is rubbish too 

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

hm... I've thought along those lines earlier in my live but now I think, brains are just as individual as bodies, that someones brain works different from yours does not mean it is blocked or things like that.

 

 

Firstly I am not sure this is about 'brains' as such - but then maybe it is.  I cannot see how a mind can work without the visual (memories or whatever) so I am supposing that these people must have them but for some reason they just don't register with them consciously.

 

22 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

Thinking of a loved one an image pops up- i think there pops up more then just an image, a conglomerate of memories, emotions, smells etc plus, for those who can easily visualize, an image. For most people thinking of that visual, the face of your mom, is the door into the whole, encompassing all senses, memory.

For a blind person maybe remembering the smell of their mom, or the specific sound of her voice could be the door into the complete memory.

 

following that line of thought, for people who are invested in/ working with the meaning of Chenrezig ( which I have totally no idea of, following my own path) it seems reasonable that conjuring up the image of it will open the door to all that it encompasses for the meditator who is visualizing it.

 

 

yes, have listened to it yesterday evening,  either they are still quite young or I am ancient. 

 

They are young ... but you are ancient

 

22 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

yes, during standing meditation images of all kind can come up, among them awareness of the energetic "bubble" that is surrounding ( and pervading) the physical body. Part of this awareness comes as a visual signal and as such gets a place in the visual memory.

 

When doing standing I can call up that visual memory from my brain and open the 'door' to the rest of that memory which makes entering that awareness a whole lot easier then the first times it happened.

 

These are my current ideas,

 

also,

 

everything I've thought of until know turned out to be discarded later as: "oh my, that was totally beside the point"

so my guess is that this is rubbish too 

 

Learn as you go ... it's the best way.

[blue eyed snake]

ancient,

oh my creaking old bones.

 

I stoked the fire today as it was the first cold day. I swear the floor gets lower every year and on that specific spot gravity seems to concentrate as to get up again is getting harder too.

But will persevere as it is so nice to sit beside that good old stove.