Everything is perfect?

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

certain doubt as you say can also mean certain non-doubt. 

 

i vote no.  

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

Solomon had doubts along the lines of "Vanity of vanities" but at the end of Ecclesiastics I'd say he found something better...

 

ok.

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

i vote no.  

it's an obvious equation,, and equations are supposed to balance out...

 

 

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

Divide time into small enough units and things are pretty good.  Like, Right Now, things are great.  I'm fed, comfortable, in no pain.. Right Now, like the T-shirt says, Life is Good.  If I stretch my thinking into the future than worries and problems arise.. and inevitably the future and its dramas pull me into it.  

 

But now, is pretty damn good.  No complaints.. the berries of the moment are delicious.  Perfect enough that I want nothing, need nothing.

 

yep, and in the "eternal now" only now can reach us...and is the home of "enlightenment" since same will never come in the past or in the future...

Edited September 16, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

12 minutes ago, old3bob said:

it's an obvious equation,, and equations are supposed to balance out...

 

certain-doubt = certain-nondoubt ?

 

certainly doubtful= certainly not doubtful ?

[old3bob]

19 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

certain-doubt = certain-nondoubt ?

 

certainly doubtful= certainly not doubtful ?

certain doubt =1point,  and certain non-doubt=1point,  thus 1=1

Edited September 16, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

26 minutes ago, old3bob said:

certain doubt =1point,  and certain non-doubt=1point,  thus 1=1

 

you lost me, sorry.

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

you lost me, sorry.

 

creative math  (being equal in magnitude)

Edited September 16, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Zen says the very same thing. As do at least those Pure Land schools that maintain that the 'pure land' is non-dual with the world of our ordinary experience. 

 

That kind of view might help explain why Japanese Buddhist temples are frequently such cheerful places -- regardless of Shakyamuni's "life is suffering" statement. They radiate some kind of existential joy; something, by contrast, I never felt in a western church (although some of the latter are energetically interesting too).

 

if someone is born in a pure land it is still a birth, and although a very high birth the Tibetan Wheel of Life points out to me that even the celestial realms (or god realms) are not free from birth and thus death which granted may take place after an exceeding long time and then another incarnation would be due.  Btw, your mention of particular places radiating joy equates to me of the development of a matrix for it manifest in...a development that Steve and I are apparently in disagreement about.

Edited September 16, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

On 9/14/2023 at 11:26 AM, Mark Foote said:

Yup.  Exciting and spooky pulls me into the present, into my body.  Doubt is a whole 'nother bag, at least to me.

 

 

looks like lack of doubt and action in the present moment saved this guy's ass!

 

 

and I think we could add that it was also an exciting moment of sorts for both man and bear...

Edited September 16, 2023 by old3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

On 16.9.2023 at 11:19 AM, old3bob said:

 

if someone is born in a pure land it is still a birth, and although a very high birth the Tibetan Wheel of Life points out to me that even the celestial realms (or god realms) are not free from birth and thus death which granted may take place after an exceeding long time and then another incarnation would be due.

 

While that is in accordance with a widely held belief especially in the Tibetan tradition, there are Buddhist teachers that have a more complex--or holistic vision--of the Pure lands. Quoting Wikipedia:

 

In Chinese Buddhism, the pure land was commonly seen as a transcendent realm beyond the three realms (the desire realm, form realm and formless realm) into which one can be reborn after death.[59] This view of the pure land as a place was defended by masters of Pure Land Buddhism like Shandao. However, another interpretation of a pure land is that it is non-dual with our world. The Vimalakīrti Sutra was widely cited by exponents of this non-dual view of the pure land, often called "mind-only" pure land (wéixīn jìngtǔ 唯心淨土). This was most commonly defended by masters of the Chan / Zen school.[60] In the Platform Sutra for example, Huineng states that only the deluded hope to be born in a faraway land in the west, while the wise who know their nature is empty seek the Pure Land by purifying their minds.[61] These two views of the pure land led to many debates in Chinese Buddhism.[62]

In a similar fashion, according to the Huayan school patriarch Fazang, the ultimate view of the Buddha's Pure Land (derived from the Avatamsaka sutra) is that it is interfused with all worlds in the multiverse and indeed with all phenomena (dharmas).[63] This view of the Buddha's pure land is inconceivable and all pervasive. Since for Fazang, the entire Dharma realm is visible within each particle in the universe, the Pure Land is therefore contained in every phenomena and is non-dual with our world.[63]

Later Chinese thinkers similarly attempted to synthesize the two ideas. Yúnqī Zhūhóng (1535–1615) saw the pure land as an actual place which is a useful upaya (skill means) created by the Buddha. Once beings reach this realm, they realize that it is just mind. Real sages can see that both ideas are interconnected and thus can affirm both without any conflict.[64]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_land

 

Quote

Btw, your mention of particular places radiating joy equates to me of the development of a matrix for it manifest in...a development that Steve and I are apparently in disagreement about.

 

Sounds awesome! Care to tell me more about it?

Edited September 18, 2023 by Michael Sternbach

[Eduardo]

El 13-09-2023 a las 6:28, old3bob dijo:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Eduardo
Delete

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Sounds awesome! Care to tell me more about it?

 

 

well same is developed in temples all over the world that become very charged up by their devotee's work and devotion along with many such chosen places also benefitting from positive earth (mountain, ocean, forest, desert, etc.) energies along with the Devas (and higher) that work to harmonize from their world to this world in such places.  Btw., so called "Idol worship" is probably about 100% misunderstood and thus rejected by Abrahamic religions yet certain statues or idols are used for subtle beings to link up with and make connection in this world...I don't know a lot about that or have much experience with it but it is not stretch at all to me.  Btw, I'd add that certain methods that are used for good can be inverted and corrupted for evils sake, thus places for evil and evil beings to work are also around.  (the lower astral trying to hijack and invade here which is protected and guarded against by forces for good)

Edited September 18, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:01 PM, old3bob said:

agreed and a profound platitude unless one has attained it,  Btw "many biographies of the Buddha begin not with his birth in his last lifetime but in a lifetime millions of years before", (thus a realization which must have not been all that simple to attain over that period)

 

It is worth mentioning that most (all?) Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes the possibility of awakening in THIS lifetime, since it is merely the recognition of something that is already true. There are those who have done so at practically every decent sized meditation center. It isn't nearly impossible, but just infrequent. 

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

It is worth mentioning that most (all?) Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes the possibility of awakening in THIS lifetime, since it is merely the recognition of something that is already true. There are those who have done so at practically every decent sized meditation center. It isn't nearly impossible, but just infrequent. 

I like the thought- enlightenment in this life is possible.

 

I listen to the Waking Up app**.  It draws from different sources, the main contributor is Dzoghen-based.  Comes at life and enlightenment from many different angles, but to me the countless dharma talks boil down to 4 words- Rest in Bright Awareness.  Do that consistently and you're enlightened.  Probably a lesser enlightenment but one's feet are in the right pond.  

 

[old3bob]

one could say the math of karma is perfect,  although at times we'd like to help it along or see it speed up for certain people    Btw. there seems to be advanced instant karma and slower long haul like karma taking place over extended periods, with both having advantages and disadvantages depending on how one can handle them. 

 

and what could one say about the karmic math of enlightenment or awakening with greater or lessor degrees of  karma in force.  Maybe that idea could  be related to schools  like Pure land Buddhism where lessor karma would be in effect?  And besides earning merit by design there is also Grace that is far beyond the workings of regular karmic math with a computation superseding human ability.

Edited September 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Small Fur]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:28 AM, old3bob said:

There is the saying heard now and then that, "everything is perfect"....

 

It seems that for the non-evolutionary Supreme Being (or we could also say the Great Tao or pure Spirit) which is beyond good and evil, beyond change and time, decay or corruption,  karma, life and death, etc. that everything could be said to be perfect.  As for Buddhism it does not say that except perhaps in a way by saying that all are Buddhas but all have not realized that -yet.  Further, one might hear that regardless of or including the opposite of all that was mentioned in the first sentence above that everything is still perfect.  So I'd  say this is something that the human mind can not wrap itself around or validly espouse...since it would not apply to same.  Btw. could such a saying as, "everything is perfect" be taken as being counterproductive to Dharma since it would mean that anti-Dharma is also perfect?  Anyway it seems to me that this saying has to be put on the shelf until one is in such realization/actualization 24/7, thus beyond any "coming or going" or potential fall, otherwise it comes across as another "new age" type concept of wishful thinking,  how about to you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Immaterial Concept of Perfection

 

 

The confounding issue has to do with the intellectual focus on parsing semantics when the True state cannot be intellectually derived and thus the focus is without a 'thing'- meaning, it is Empty. So intellectual argument is ultimately, in this case, a false argument, even if it seems logically true given contexts and dependencies. As "thusness" is without name, without object, without even experience in and of itself, there can be no true mental argument that is based on givens or variations regardless of whether one 'believes' it to be true or not true.  Thus, belief here is also another unhelpful form of ideological approach.

What then causes 'new age wishfulness' but an abundance of beliefs, hopes and dreams, obscuring clarity through ungrounded perceptions? Just because humans are prone to wishfulness and skepticism, trust and doubt, doesn't diminish what is of actual spiritual essence and ultimately beyond essence and the existential (yes! there is 'something' beyond the existential!). We have an entire universe of lost souls but the Tao remains... perfect- more on that later.

So, what is inherently Essential and True does not need anyone's belief yet is benefited and gives benefit to all that sense it within themselves and care to move forth from that integrity of purity within in all moments.  It is the case that the nature of the lost human is lost because that pure sense (the yuan- original light) has been cleaved and fragmented, squandered and compartmentalized; and thus people even feel the need to say such things as 'I believe in love', 'I believe in kindness' and cannot fully comprehend the grace and generosity that is the profound simplicity of love and kindness. This form of unawareness is directly proportional to the fact that many people are not entirely certain about whether they have a soul or a spirit- this essence of themselves that is the shen (spirit, light, awareness) that creates everything that they actually are! Thus in not knowing the spirit of self, they do not know the spirit of other, and in not sincerely caring enough for either, they cannot perceive the mother Tao.  

Not knowing (including not knowing if there is perfection) is a valuable part of being able to accept mystery, learning to work with the unknown, and ultimately understanding what is contained in Silence. This takes as much courage as it does humility. Live from what you sense to be the highest goodness within, and allow the mysteries to unveil themselves as they do, if they do- seeking to understand with grace whatever is presented- whether you like it or not, or want it or not; go deeper than your expectations and desires. Go deeper than believing and knowing, doubtfulness and skepticism.

So then what is it this 'perfection' that we are examining? The reason it is confusing is because people's ideas of perfection are mundanely derived just as their disappointments about the lack thereof. The kind of spiritual perfection that is alluded to by the Perfected Ones is not of mundane conditioning even though it encompasses the mundane. To put simply, once you arrive at the enlightened understanding, you realize the enlightenment that passes through all things, you see the shen (spirit) in all things, and you experience the being(s) as the immortal Buddha. You understand the integral relationship of dualities as a unity of all things in which there is no longer, ultimately even oneness.

This unity (the one) that is no longer dual (the two: yin and yang) is the conjoining of dharma and anti-dharma not as polarities of tension, but now as a perfection of harmony (the Taiji). This is the Consciousness of the shen dao (consciousness of the Tao itself from Wuji)  by recognition of the one whose consciousness has reunited with the Original (yuan shen). In time when you come into full enlightenment, you will realize that in Emptiness there is no thing that can be named, as there is neither dharma nor anti-dharma and by this same token it is how dharma and anti-dharma also exist. This perfected consciousness in understanding is why we realize dharma itself is immaterial: because it is merely a concept.

Yet an invaluable concept nonetheless, and one that we must embrace with our hearts, if our minds (shen as mind-spirit) are to be Liberated of all things- including this concept from within the maya.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55095-everything-is-perfect/

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Small Fur

[old3bob]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:19 PM, Small Fur said:

 

 

The Immaterial Concept of Perfection

 

 

The confounding issue has to do with the intellectual focus on parsing semantics when the True state cannot be intellectually derived and thus the focus is without a 'thing'- meaning, it is Empty. So intellectual argument is ultimately, in this case, a false argument, even if it seems logically true given contexts and dependencies. As "thusness" is without name, without object, without even experience in and of itself, there can be no true mental argument that is based on givens or variations regardless of whether one 'believes' it to be true or not true.  Thus, belief here is also another unhelpful form of ideological approach.

What then causes 'new age wishfulness' but an abundance of beliefs, hopes and dreams, obscuring clarity through ungrounded perceptions? Just because humans are prone to wishfulness and skepticism, trust and doubt, doesn't diminish what is of actual spiritual essence and ultimately beyond essence and the existential (yes! there is 'something' beyond the existential!). We have an entire universe of lost souls but the Tao remains... perfect- more on that later.

So, what is inherently Essential and True does not need anyone's belief yet is benefited and gives benefit to all that sense it within themselves and care to move forth from that integrity of purity within in all moments.  It is the case that the nature of the lost human is lost because that pure sense (the yuan- original light) has been cleaved and fragmented, squandered and compartmentalized; and thus people even feel the need to say such things as 'I believe in love', 'I believe in kindness' and cannot fully comprehend the grace and generosity that is the profound simplicity of love and kindness. This form of unawareness is directly proportional to the fact that many people are not entirely certain about whether they have a soul or a spirit- this essence of themselves that is the shen (spirit, light, awareness) that creates everything that they actually are! Thus in not knowing the spirit of self, they do not know the spirit of other, and in not sincerely caring enough for either, they cannot perceive the mother Tao.  

Not knowing (including not knowing if there is perfection) is a valuable part of being able to accept mystery, learning to work with the unknown, and ultimately understanding what is contained in Silence. This takes as much courage as it does humility. Live from what you sense to be the highest goodness within, and allow the mysteries to unveil themselves as they do, if they do- seeking to understand with grace whatever is presented- whether you like it or not, or want it or not; go deeper than your expectations and desires. Go deeper than believing and knowing, doubtfulness and skepticism.

So then what is it this 'perfection' that we are examining? The reason it is confusing is because people's ideas of perfection are mundanely derived just as their disappointments about the lack thereof. The kind of spiritual perfection that is alluded to by the Perfected Ones is not of mundane conditioning even though it encompasses the mundane. To put simply, once you arrive at the enlightened understanding, you realize the enlightenment that passes through all things, you see the shen (spirit) in all things, and you experience the being(s) as the immortal Buddha. You understand the integral relationship of dualities as a unity of all things in which there is no longer, ultimately even oneness.

This unity (the one) that is no longer dual (the two: yin and yang) is the conjoining of dharma and anti-dharma not as polarities of tension, but now as a perfection of harmony (the Taiji). This is the Consciousness of the shen dao (consciousness of the Tao itself from Wuji)  by recognition of the one whose consciousness has reunited with the Original (yuan shen). In time when you come into full enlightenment, you will realize that in Emptiness there is no thing that can be named, as there is neither dharma nor anti-dharma and by this same token it is how dharma and anti-dharma also exist. This perfected consciousness in understanding is why we realize dharma itself is immaterial: because it is merely a concept.

Yet an invaluable concept nonetheless, and one that we must embrace with our hearts, if our minds (shen as mind-spirit) are to be Liberated of all things- including this concept from within the maya.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55095-everything-is-perfect/

 

 

Small Fur, thanks, that was a little above my grade but I can dig it.  Btw, have you studied the Upanishads which I favor over a lot of what to me are the abstractions of Buddhism. 

Edited September 23, 2023 by old3bob

[old3bob]

From Small Fur:

"This unity (the one) that is no longer dual (the two: yin and yang) is the conjoining of dharma and anti-dharma not as polarities of tension, but now as a perfection of harmony (the Taiji). This is the Consciousness of the shen dao (consciousness of the Tao itself from Wuji)  by recognition of the one whose consciousness has reunited with the Original (yuan shen). In time when you come into full enlightenment, you will realize that in Emptiness there is no thing that can be named, as there is neither dharma nor anti-dharma and by this same token it is how dharma and anti-dharma also exist. This perfected consciousness in understanding is why we realize dharma itself is immaterial: because it is merely a concept.

Yet an invaluable concept nonetheless, and one that we must embrace with our hearts, if our minds (shen as mind-spirit) are to be Liberated of all things- including this concept from within the maya."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 

 

I have a some differences  or ways of expressing about several of your points above.  Btw,  I don't have a Taoist background or training at all, and have just read the T.T.C. and some other Taoist teachings thus it follows I'm not up all the Taoist terms you've used.  Anyway to me the "One" as described as the first born of the Great Tao (which to me is more than a concept since it is connected to Tao) could be said to be an all inclusive circle with everything in and under it, so yes Dharma and anti-Dharma, love through hate, are all in the big ball of wax so to speak.  And then there is the saying that, "only no-thing can enter into no space" with the word emptiness often used in reference to it, but to me that word is empty of meaning in trying to point to that since it tends to have a nihilistic connotation in the west although it is profusely used in a far more applicable context in the east.  And again to me dharma/law is not just a concept but a way to return, a way to lesson karma and weaken ego as you also seem to be saying in your own way? 

Btw, to me Maya is a major concept when only taken as so called illusion like Advaita Vedanta says along with a great many other eastern and western schools, but not by all of them... I'm not really qualified to represent that but feel ok in mentioning it without getting into the all of the possible conundrums.

 

 There are few great Sages that (have the mission to) reveal themselves but I'm thankful that some have and helped struggling mankind (and me) with more than just abstractions but have put themselves on the line and sacrificed in profound ways, so to me that relates to the full meaning of Shen or Spirit which is more than just reaching a transcendent realm or methods of reaching deeper awareness but without karma yoga included.

Regards, Bob

 

P.S. also from Small Fur:  "To put simply, once you arrive at the enlightened understanding, you realize the enlightenment that passes through all things, you see the shen (spirit) in all things, and you experience the being(s) as the immortal Buddha." 

- - - - - - - 

Indeed! to know and be that in an eternal moment is the most wonderful freedom!  but then karma pulls us back into time and space and our old self, so to keep at it will test us to the limits; (with there being big difference's in paths for householders, renunciates and those in between) which I'd say one needs a masters/guru's guidance for since it is not done without having help in certain ways.  Many do not believe in the value of true masters/guru's (partly because there have been lots of hyped-up or false ones) and thus there is disdain for the idea of their authority because several bad apples must mean to them that they are all bad apples...

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

Wow @Small Fur Dropping pearls!

Thank you for sharing.

[Mark Foote]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:19 PM, Small Fur said:

 

 

The Immaterial Concept of Perfection

... In time when you come into full enlightenment, you will realize that in Emptiness there is no thing that can be named, as there is neither dharma nor anti-dharma and by this same token it is how dharma and anti-dharma also exist. This perfected consciousness in understanding is why we realize dharma itself is immaterial: because it is merely a concept.

Yet an invaluable concept nonetheless, and one that we must embrace with our hearts, if our minds (shen as mind-spirit) are to be Liberated of all things- including this concept from within the maya.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/55095-everything-is-perfect/

 

 

I myself try to use only the pronoun "I", if a pronoun must be used.  What I find is, that to do so I have to write things I didn't already know, before I wrote them.

Take a look--is there a loss of personal significance, whenever the other pronouns are used?  Why then expect that someone else will find significance?

There are others who should know better, here on Dao Bums--they continue to write as though only for the benefit of others.  What's a mother to do!




 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 9/18/2023 at 8:49 AM, Eduardo said:

 

Re-experiencing the reality of the painful world is the only path to wisdom.
 

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I myself try to use only the pronoun "I", if a pronoun must be used.  What I find is, that to do so I have to write things I didn't already know, before I wrote them.

Take a look--is there a loss of personal significance, whenever the other pronouns are used?  Why then expect that someone else will find significance?

There are others who should know better, here on Dao Bums--they continue to write as though only for the benefit of others.  What's a mother to do!
 

 

yew, oops that a wood of some type right?   Anyway we using we is more to our and us's likings, even if we are easy...granted we could be making assumptions if we use we.

Edited September 26, 2023 by old3bob

[Cobie]

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I myself try to use only the pronoun "I" …

So do I  , ime it prevents futile arguments 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Cobie

[old3bob]

 

[Unota]

Sometimes I think back on if I should have made different choices, if it would have made me happier or put me into a better situation. I don't think it would have mattered in the end. Bad things could just as easily happened no matter what I had done, and with the mindset that I had been before this, I would have reacted to them just as badly. I would only be able to see the misfortune. A miserable person likes to be miserable.

 

But lately, whether it's good fortune or misfortune, I think I am losing the ability to tell the difference. Nothing about my life circumstances have changed at all! I still have little freedom, few friends, and not much of a family to rely on, not much spending money, which used to make me completely miserable. At one point I was even suicidal. I used to be so miserable, that I would be devastated over waking up in the morning at all.

 

But after realizing something that had been bothering me deeply for a long time, I feel like I have been able to enjoy smaller things. I get excited over things that are really stupid. Like, wow! I get to have cottage cheese for dinner! I love cottage cheese! Lucky!!

 

And recently, it finally occurred to me that I could work out and watch soap operas at the same time. I love exercising and soap operas! What do you mean I could have been doing both at the same time!? Really?! I felt blessed. I've been a lot happier lately because of stupid things like this.

 

I think, by everything is perfect, of course everything is as it should be, because there is nothing you could have done differently to improve it. Ultimately how you react to a situation is up to you. I think that perfection is everywhere if you look for it. My answer is a lot simpler than some of the others...sorry, haha.