Everything is perfect?

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

That's the perspective taken by Zen and those Buddhist schools which maintain that the 'Pure land' is everywhere around us, if only we could see it.

 

I tend to agree.

 

I believe.. confidently.. you are the pure-land.  And I get to visit 'you' if I keep an open mind. 

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Just skipping the word fear and using "exciting" or even "spooky", works.  But would exciting or spooky exist without doubt? 
 

Yup.  Exciting and spooky pulls me into the present, into my body.  Doubt is a whole 'nother bag, at least to me.

 

 

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Yup.  Exciting and spooky pulls me into the present, into my body.  Doubt is a whole 'nother bag, at least to me.

 

what does it mean, to you, to be excited?

[old3bob]

I'd interject that there is far more than just physical and emotional excitement...so to borrow the Buddhist quote below which points to all beings whether Buddhist or not since the word word buddha and its meaning meaning is in no way limited to just Buddhism...

“Wonder of wonders! Intrinsically all living beings are Buddhas, endowed with wisdom and virtue, but because men’s minds have become inverted through delusive thinking they fail to perceive this.”  — Buddha

[doc benway]

On 9/13/2023 at 5:28 AM, old3bob said:

As for Buddhism it does not say that except perhaps in a way by saying that all are Buddhas but all have not realized that -yet.

 

Buddhism actually does say that everything is perfect in a very explicit way - the path of dzogchen.

The word literally means great perfection, referring to the fundamental, primordially pure, unfabricated state of being - our inherent essence. There are three major paths in Mahayana Buddhism and this is one. The other two paths and the Hinayana don't necessarily accept or agree with the dzogchen view but it is an important part of Bön and Buddhism, generally referred to as the highest or most precise, and most elusive, view. 

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Buddhism actually does say that everything is perfect in a very explicit way - the path of dzogchen.

The word literally means great perfection, referring to the fundamental, primordially pure, unfabricated state of being - our inherent essence. There are three major paths in Mahayana Buddhism and this is one. The other two paths and the Hinayana don't necessarily accept or agree with the dzogchen view but it is an important part of Bön and Buddhism, generally referred to as the highest or most precise, and most elusive, view. 

 

are you saying that your school says all beings have realized/actualized the "Great perfection"?  I'd be surprised if that was so...since the founder of Buddhism never said that in the quote I posted  just before your most recent post.  It's great that a being sees the "great perfection" but many such beings ( for instance Quan Yin) also stay on this side of the gate  to help those that haven't realized/reached or seen that perfection yet.

Edited September 15, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd interject that there is far more than just physical and emotional excitement...so to borrow the Buddhist quote below which points to all beings whether Buddhist or not since the word word buddha and its meaning meaning is in no way limited to just Buddhism...

“Wonder of wonders! Intrinsically all living beings are Buddhas, endowed with wisdom and virtue, but because men’s minds have become inverted through delusive thinking they fail to perceive this.”  — Buddha

 

Agreed!

 

The question I'm asking is: 

 

If there is no doubt, then everything is certain. 

If everything is certain, there is no motive-to-explore.

 

If there is no motive-to-explore, what is exciting?

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The question I'm asking is: 

 

If there is no doubt, then everything is certain. 

If everything is certain, there is no motive-to-explore.

 

If there is no motive-to-explore, what is exciting?

 

a Saint has no doubts about certain things, but for certain they have motive to continue their mission.

Edited September 15, 2023 by old3bob

[whocoulditbe?]

How is "fail to percieve" compatible with "awakened"?

[old3bob]

3 minutes ago, whocoulditbe? said:

How is "fail to percieve" compatible with "awakened"?

 

to me it means potential awaking yet to be realized/actualized

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

a Saint has no doubts about certain things but for certain they have motive to continue their mission.

 

No doubts about certain things?  That's different than having no doubt unqualified.

 

Is their mission exciting?  what is exciting about it?  how are you defining their mission?  when the 72 were sent, did they know how they would be rec'd?  Luke 10?

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

No doubts about certain things?  That's different than having no doubt unqualified.

 

Is their mission exciting?  what is exciting about it?  how are you defining their mission?  when the 72 were sent, did they know how they would be rec'd?  Luke 10?

 

are you beating this idea to death for the sake of argument?

[Daniel]

41 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

are you beating this idea to death for the sake of argument?

 

no, of course not.  i think there's an important distinction between having no doubt, and lacking doubt in some things.  If I scroll up, I think it will be clear that no doubt, absolutely none, was being discussed.

 

bringing an example of the pious doesn't quite fit if they are only partially lacking doubt.  but this depends on what you mean by mission and what you mean by "Saint" capital "S".  If you mean Christian Saints, then the 72 are relevant for discussion.

[Daniel]

46 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

are you beating this idea to death for the sake of argument?

 

and this is relevant to the topic because it seems like having absolutely no doubt is being lifted up as an ideal of "perfect".

 

i'm asking "is it ideal"?  it's assumed to be ideal?

[old3bob]

Did Moses in his later days have doubt about the bigger picture so to speak?  While and granted he may have had some doubt about what a particular individual would be doing on a certain day at a certain hour unless he was an eye-witness of same,  for instance whether they were working on crops, mending fences, or tending to animals.  And which are you more concerned about?  Btw is following the spiritual laws and doing one's duty "exciting"?  which seems like a shallow connotation if used.

Edited September 15, 2023 by old3bob

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

are you saying that your school says all beings have realized/actualized the "Great perfection"?

 

All beings are said to have innate buddha-nature. That is, their essence is primordially pure and perfectly complete. Nothing needs to be added or subtracted. The only obstacle is a failure to recognize. They need do nothing, change nothing whatsoever to realize/actualize this other than simply to recognize the truth.

[Michael Sternbach]

9 hours ago, steve said:

 

Buddhism actually does say that everything is perfect in a very explicit way - the path of dzogchen.

The word literally means great perfection, referring to the fundamental, primordially pure, unfabricated state of being - our inherent essence. There are three major paths in Mahayana Buddhism and this is one. The other two paths and the Hinayana don't necessarily accept or agree with the dzogchen view but it is an important part of Bön and Buddhism, generally referred to as the highest or most precise, and most elusive, view. 

 

Zen says the very same thing. As do at least those Pure Land schools that maintain that the 'pure land' is non-dual with the world of our ordinary experience. 

 

That kind of view might help explain why Japanese Buddhist temples are frequently such cheerful places -- regardless of Shakyamuni's "life is suffering" statement. They radiate some kind of existential joy; something, by contrast, I never felt in a western church (although some of the latter are energetically interesting too).

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

All beings are said to have innate buddha-nature. That is, their essence is primordially pure and perfectly complete. Nothing needs to be added or subtracted. The only obstacle is a failure to recognize. They need do nothing, change nothing whatsoever to realize/actualize this other than simply to recognize the truth.

 

agreed and a profound platitude unless one has attained it,  Btw "many biographies of the Buddha begin not with his birth in his last lifetime but in a lifetime millions of years before", (thus a realization which must have not been all that simple to attain over that period)

Edited September 15, 2023 by old3bob

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 a profound platitude unless one has attained it,  

 

It’s only a platitude when you objectify and conceptualize it. It is not an attainment, that idea is what makes it seem so far away. It is always here and now. Nothing to attain at all, it is already complete and perfect.

[old3bob]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

 

It’s only a platitude when you objectify and conceptualize it. It is not an attainment, that idea is what makes it seem so far away. It is always here and now. Nothing to attain at all, it is already complete and perfect.

 

18 minutes ago, steve said:

 

It’s only a platitude when you objectify and conceptualize it. It is not an attainment, that idea is what makes it seem so far away. It is always here and now. Nothing to attain at all, it is already complete and perfect.

 

It yes, the matrix for greater manifestation of It not necessarily so...thus the said million or whatever number years of matrix development.  

Edited September 15, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, old3bob said:

Did Moses in his later days have doubt about the bigger picture so to speak?  While and granted he may have had some doubt about what a particular individual would be doing on a certain day at a certain hour unless he was an eye-witness of same,  for instance whether they were working on crops, mending fences, or tending to animals.  And which are you more concerned about?  Btw is following the spiritual laws and doing one's duty "exciting"?  which seems like a shallow connotation if used.

 

Did Moses doubt or was he certain?  I don't know. 

 

My concern ( if that's a proper description ) is the focus of the thread: "perfection" so, I would say that Moses is not the ideal, but it's not about doubt or certainty.  without some additional info from you or in writing, I'm not able to say much more than that.

 

are spiritual laws and doing one's duty exciting?  That depends.  the excitement can be cultivated and I think that is good and important.  It brings the service to a higher level.  my question is, can it be cultivated in certainty?  is doubt required for that cultivation?  granted there is certainty-of-doubt, but I consider that a version of doubt, not a version of certainty.

 

if doubt leads to excitement, and certainty prohibits it, and excitement brings the service to a higher level, then, doubt is good in that context and should not be abandoned nor compromised... in that context.  not in grizzly territory 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

Did Moses doubt or was he certain?  I don't know. 

 

My concern ( if thats a proper description ) is the focus of the thread: "perfection" so, I would say that Moses is not the ideal, but it's not about doubt or certainty.  without some additional info from you or in writing, I'm not able to say much more than that.

 

are spiritual laws and doing one's duty exciting?  That depends.  the excitement can be cultivated.  my question is, can it be cultivated in certainty.  is doubt required for that cultivation.  granted there is certainty-of-doubt, but I consider that a version of doubt, not a version of certainty.

 

 

 

if one has some experiential faith and some actual undeniable experience for themselves around the meanings of scripture does one keep saying "I don't know"?  It hasn't sounded to me like you are bereft of some experience and thus can keep proclaiming that you  don't know....one can take playing the devils advocate so far if that is what you are doing?

[Daniel]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

if one has some experiential faith and some actual undeniable experience for themselves around the meanings of scripture does one keep saying "I don't know"?  It hasn't sounded to me like you are bereft of some experience and thus can keep proclaiming that you  don't know....one can take playing the devils advocate so far if that is what you are doing?

 

My only reply to this is to restate what I previously wrote.

 

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 i think there's an important distinction between having no doubt, and lacking doubt in some things.

 

and

 

26 minutes ago, Daniel said:

granted there is certainty-of-doubt, but I consider that a version of doubt, not a version of certainty.

 

my experiences have led me, speaking only for myself, to a certain-doubt.  this cultivates humility and opens my mind among other things.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

My only reply to this is to restate what I previously wrote.

and my experiences have led me, speaking only for myself, to a certain-doubt.  this cultivates humility and opens my mind among other things.

 

certain doubt as you say can also mean certain non-doubt.  Solomon had doubts along the lines of "Vanity of vanities" but at the end of Ecclesiastics I'd say he found something better...

[thelerner]

Divide time into small enough units and things are pretty good.  Like, Right Now, things are great.  I'm fed, comfortable, in no pain.. Right Now, like the T-shirt says, Life is Good.  If I stretch my thinking into the future than worries and problems arise.. and inevitably the future and its dramas pull me into it.  

 

But now, is pretty damn good.  No complaints.. the berries of the moment are delicious.  Perfect enough that I want nothing, need nothing.