eternity can't be....

[old3bob]

eternity of all time and space can't be of a line that starts, extends and then ends somewhere, or in thinking that from here on out we have eternity.  So to me its pretty safe to say that only cycles are eternal...the cosmic cycle for the physical universe and all its variations of energy is said to be around 14+ billion earth years before it returns (to a singularity) and then starts all over again with a big bang - not sure if or how that might apply to generally unknown realms?  Anyway some want to be around as a particular someone or particular immortal for "all eternity" yet even eternity isn't around for all eternity except in cycles.  So that makes me wonder about the goals of some "immortals" that we hear of who at best can only exist in a period of a cosmic cycle (or perhaps much longer during the lifetime of Lord Brahma?) before it ends and then begins all over again, thus only the Great Tao-remains as the source of cycles - while particular beings and worlds have to "return".  And of course there are many takes on this subject and many of them don't agree...

 

that which was said above is different from an "eternal moment" which is beyond the time and space limits of a cosmic cycle or of a lesser cycle of time and space.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by old3bob

[Daniel]

I'm not arguing, I promise.

 

I think that the eternal moment is a concept which could, possibly, overlay onto what you're saying about cycles of time.  The reason this is important, to me, is that it helps to conceptualize what an immortal would experience and be capable of.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the "eterrnal moment" perspective is not achievable, for an immortal, depending on certain conditions.  Perhaps there are different types of immortals.

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Daniel

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I'm not arguing, I promise.

 

I think that the eternal moment is a concept which could, possibly, overlay onto what you're saying about cycles of time.  The reason this is important, to me, is that it helps to conceptualize what an immortal would experience and be capable of.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the "eterrnal moment" perspective is not achievable, for an immortal, depending on certain conditions.  Perhaps there are different types of immortals.

 

 

there are several types of immortals (per various schools) that I don't have descriptions of at the moment; if a Taoist or anyone else wants to fill that in go ahead.

 

Enlightenment per the term "Self" as used in the Upanishads is only possible in the eternal moment beyond mental stuff, so other times, so to speak,  have aspects of spinning with past and or future ramifications.  For instance memories and thought projections are in such times and are of mind stuff)

 

Beings can come upon the Self that is within them or which is really them without one being pigeon-holed by various labels  like "immortal" since that term can mean different things to different folks.  All of this is a big subject often gone into here at this site.

[old3bob]

pulled the descriptions below off the internet - of which there are more variations depending on the school;   one might also look in the old and new testaments  where golden being or something like man of gold is pointed to or mentioned...(thus and apparently a "golden immortal" but in a different religious context)

 

"Immortals are separated into Five Ranks, namely Human Immortals [ren xian人仙],  Heavenly Immortals [tian xian天仙] Immortals,  Spirit Immortals [shen xian神仙] ,  Earthly Immortals [di xian地仙] and  Ghost Immortals [gui xian鬼仙].Aug 2, 2019"

 

btw, the founder of Akido mentions the Golden Being in a revelation he had, and there are many other accounts over the ages with different peoples, for instance the Golden Buddha mentioned and depicted in some of their scripture and or art, and similar pointers and or accounts can  also be found in Hinduism.  Btw, here is very short clip from Taoism:  "The Twelve Golden Immortals, also known as the Twelve Golden Immortals of Kunlun, are the collective name for the twelve disciples of Yuanshi Tianzun of Yuxu Palace in the Chinese classical novel "The Story of Fengshen ". It is the highest immortal in the Taoist immortal level."

Edited September 18, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

You left out the 'eternal extension' of macro/microcosms . That is  we can see the 'as above so below' reflection in sub-atomic physics and astrophysics , but what if these realms extend to many (or infinite ) levels of 'smaller' and greater' .  So or 'eternity' has to be 'in and out, to and fro , up and down , in and out .

 

So we could postulate ( for ease of terms ) a really big being ... huge Maha Vishnu type dude  , and hence  'being' in a ( to us ) immensely slow time scale .  Then such cycles as you mention may be like 'mere' heartbeats to him  .... breaths in and out . 

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

You left out the 'eternal extension' of macro/microcosms . That is  we can see the 'as above so below' reflection in sub-atomic physics and astrophysics , but what if these realms extend to many (or infinite ) levels of 'smaller' and greater' .  So or 'eternity' has to be 'in and out, to and fro , up and down , in and out .

 

So we could postulate ( for ease of terms ) a really big being ... huge Maha Vishnu type dude  , and hence  'being' in a ( to us ) immensely slow time scale .  Then such cycles as you mention may be like 'mere' heartbeats to him  .... breaths in and out . 

 

 

 

I'm biased more towards the Saivite teachings than Vishnuism, thus there is that famous saying, "Shiva destroyer of worlds" which I think could better be put as absorber of worlds which has a different connotation altogether.  Anyway Lord Brahma/creator is recognized as having the following time periods in most or all of Hinduism:  "A month of Brahma contains thirty such days and nights, or 259.2 billion years. According to the Mahabharata, 12 months of Brahma (=360 days) constitute his year, and 100 such years his life called a maha-kalpa (311.04 trillion years or 36,000 kalpa + 36,000 pralaya)".  Which is obviously far longer than that which modern science proposes for cosmic cycles of a singularity and then a big bang that lasts for around 14 billion years.  (so i'll edit my first post to include this much longer time period)

 

"Then such cycles as you mention may be like 'mere' heartbeats to him  .... breaths in and out",  Mr. O. of the fourth way submitted some good charts along these lines of cosmological comparisons.  (an interesting system to me besides some of the troubles it has had with false teachers)

 

People do speak of multi-verses if that is what you mean but I have not gotten into those postulations, which may be fact for some.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by old3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

16 hours ago, old3bob said:

eternity of all time and space can't be of a line that starts, extends and then ends somewhere, or in thinking that from here on out we have eternity.  So to me its pretty safe to say that only cycles are eternal...the cosmic cycle for the physical universe and all its variations of energy is said to be around 14+ billion earth years before it returns (to a singularity) and then starts all over again with a big bang - not sure if or how that might apply to generally unknown realms? 

 

Well, most cosmologists believe that the universe is roughly 14 billion years old today.  If the model you refer to actually turns out to be the correct one, one full cycle of expansion and contraction takes considerably longer than that, though (thanks God!).

 

However, while there is no universal agreement in cosmology (LOL), the idea that the current expansive phase will be followed by a contractive phase--ending, at least momentarily, in a so called Big Crunch--lost much popularity in more recent times: not only is there not the slightest indication of the expansion ever coming to a halt, on the contrary, it was found to be constantly accelerating. The reason for this is elusive, so the cosmologists wisely decided to attribute it to something they call Dark Energy.

 

Now since we are not entirely sure how Dark Energy relates to equally mysterious Dark Matter, the last word on the matter may not have been spoken yet, but at the moment, it really seems like the universe (or whatever may be left of it in many billion years) is bound to expand in all eternity.

 

Is there a way that the cyclic concept could be saved? Astonishingly, there is!

 

For not long ago (well, at least in cosmic terms), Sir Roger Penrose (whose grasp of cosmic matters is so breathtakingly impressive that he needed to be knighted) came up with the idea that, although expansion indeed continues unlimitedly, once that all black holes would have evaporated, and all matter would have returned to the state of pure energy, something weird happens: space and time stretch out to infinity and eternity, respectively!

 

Another way of expressing this is that, with all Swiss watchmakers and all other matter reverted to energy, there's simply no way of telling what bloody time it is, or (for that matter) to measure any distances. So you might as well say that our light-filled universe became both timeless and spaceless now. Hush! The mind of God!

 

Paradoxically, this state of infinite expansion coincides with a state of infinite contraction by what may seem to be a mere mathematical trick, but actually has a profound meaning. 😮

 

Nope, there's no contractive phase ('Big Crunch') occurring in Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology!!! Yes I know, that's a tough one to wrap your head around--trust me, I feel you! Let me tell you that even a costly documentary got that wrong as I sadly had to inform its makers in a comment posted just hours after its release. 🤭

 

So at one (eternal) moment you have infinite expansion, and at the "next" another singularity--nothing in between! Just BANG! And Brahman's game starts all over again...

 

Quote

Anyway some want to be around as a particular someone or particular immortal for "all eternity" yet even eternity isn't around for all eternity except in cycles.  So that makes me wonder about the goals of some "immortals" that we hear of who at best can only exist in a period of a cosmic cycle before it ends and then begins all over again, thus only the Great Tao-remains as the source of cycles - while particular beings and worlds have to "return".  And of course there are many takes on this subject and many of them don't agree...

 

that which was said above is different from an "eternal moment" which is beyond the time and space limits of a cosmic cycle or of a lesser cycle of time and space.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

@DanielPlease note that CCC (see my previous post) also highlights the curious coincidence of infinity with zero which we recently talked about.

 

We're not done yet with that discussion... More spiritual smoothie yet to follow as we try and smoothen things out! 😋

[stirling]

On 9/17/2023 at 7:30 AM, old3bob said:

that which was said above is different from an "eternal moment" which is beyond the time and space limits of a cosmic cycle or of a lesser cycle of time and space.

 

Absolutely!

 

We can make up any stories we want about how "eternity" presents itself, but really it is NONE of those. It just as you describe here. It is now, where our delusions about the past and future are understood, and we can just drink in this moment. No cycles.

 

"Time" is one of the three doors to non-dual understanding, the others being "self" and "space". All of them are conceptual designations we distort reality with by insisting what is real underneath be shoe-horned into their limited shapes.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Absolutely!

 

We can make up any stories we want about how "eternity" presents itself, but really it is NONE of those. It just as you describe here. It is now, where our delusions about the past and future are understood, and we can just drink in this moment. No cycles.

 

"Time" is one of the three doors to non-dual understanding, the others being "self" and "space". All of them are conceptual designations we distort reality with by insisting what is real underneath be shoe-horned into their limited shapes.

 

i don't have a problem with duality and or evolution that is part of non-duality and or the non-evolutionary.

Edited September 18, 2023 by old3bob