Yin Shen Demon Attached

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Are you abusing the word “mind-games” in a non-dictionary way?

 

mind game

noun

: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate  —usually used in plural

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mind game 

 

 

This is another common bit of spicy psychology, and it fits very nicely into what I was writing about, the mind-games that can be played to produce what appears to be ESP or fortune telling.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying

 

Scrying is looking into a "black mirror" in order to probe the sub-conscious mind.  This is where Tarot Cards, looking into a Crystal Ball, reading runes, tea-leaves, incense smoke, and all sorts of meditative, divination ( fortune telling ) practices come from.  But the images are usually so vague that they can be easily believed if the recipient is simply open to suggestion.  Then the fortune teller gets a psychological boost when the recipient feeds their faith to the fortune teller.

 

The spicy psychology part comes in when the fortune teller is reading the recipient's reaction to the fortune as it is being told bit by bit.  Then the fortune narrows in bit by bit.  The fortune teller is actually not reading the medium, the tea-leaves, they are instead reading the reactions on the recipient.  That's the secret which shatters the illusion.

 

The fortune teller begins by casting the net far and wide... then they read the reaction on the recipient.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

Its not the underpinning of western occultism ... its the underpinning technology of all spiritual systems  that use any thing like ritual .

 

'Seeking control over the mind '  has no exclusivity at all  owned by western occultism .

 

Look up a definition of meditation .

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

This is another common bit of spicy psychology, and it fits very nicely into what I was writing about, the mind-games that can be played to produce what appears to be ESP or fortune telling.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying

 

Scrying is looking into a "black mirror" in order to probe the sub-conscious mind.  This is where Tarot Cards, looking into a Crystal Ball, reading runes, tea-leaves, incense smoke, and all sorts of meditative, divination ( fortune telling ) practices come from.  But the images are usually so vague that they can be easily believed if the recipient is simply open to suggestion.  Then the fortune teller gets a psychological boost when the recipient feeds their faith to the fortune teller.

 

The spicy psychology part comes in when the fortune teller is reading the recipient's reaction to the fortune as it is being told bit by bit.  The fortune teller is actually not reading the medium, the tea-leaves, they are instead reading the reactions on the recipient.  That's the secret which shatters the illusion.

 

 

 

a 'fortune teller ' reading tea leaves is hardly comparable to a Priest in the Gnostic Catholic Church , nor a qualified magician performing an evocation .

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Are you abusing the word “mind-games” in a non-dictionary way?

 

mind game

noun

: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate  —usually used in plural

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mind game 

 

 

I suppose the last piece of the puzzle involves self-induced hallucinations which is self mind manipulations, or perhaps manipulating the mind of an "initiate" through a form of hypnosis or sensory deprivation.  In a group setting there is a increased likelihood for the phenomena if all parties are ... drumroll... open to suggestion. 

 

This is the illusion of summoning an angel or a demon.  An angel or demon is just an archetype that lives in the psyche, in the mind.  The angel/demon is invoked into a human body or evoked into a sigil drawn on the floor or on some other surface or on a vessel.  Then the individual or group convinces themself, manipulates their mind that this archetype is among them or possessing them.

 

But again, it's all mind-games.  It's neither miracle nor magic.  It's a psycho-drama being "worked" or "crafted" on those who are highly suggestable and open to the concepts.

 

So, when someone gets involved in these things and is having trouble, the best non-medical intervention / remedy is non-belief.  It's like a light switch.  None of those angels / demons / magic tricks are real.  They're all in mind.  And it's literally true.  All of them are just mind-games.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_effect

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-71631-001

https://dictionary.apa.org/collective-hysteria

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

… just mind-games. …

Thanks for your replies. I’m aware of ‘cold reading’ and I have a developed ‘belief/don’t belief’ switch.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

… just mind-games. …

You are not using the dictionary meaning of ‘mind-games (it requires ill intent). 
 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

You are not using the dictionary meaning of ‘mind-games (it requires ill intent). 
 

 

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_games#Unconscious_games

 

"... a central element of social life ALL OVER THE WORLD."   Which is why I said:

 

Quote

"Magic" as it is "conceived" in western occultism is precisely that "mind-games".  And it's amazing how much can be accomplished through these sorts of mind-games.  Amazing.  But, when good people dabble in them deeply bad things can happen.  

 

... can happen.  Not will happen.  Deeply bad things can happen.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

… It also describes the unconscious games played by people engaged in ulterior transactions of which they are not fully aware, and which transactional analysis considers to form a central element of social life all over the world. …

(my highlighting)

“transactions … transactional analysis”

 

As I said:

 

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

You are not using the dictionary meaning of ‘mind-games (it requires ill intent). 

 

21 hours ago, Cobie said:

mind game

noun

: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate  —usually used in plural

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mind game  

 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

20 hours ago, Daniel said:

… a form of hypnosis …

 

On 02/10/2023 at 4:17 PM, Taoist Texts said:

… What is going on is a hypnosis. …

 

Great minds think alike. 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

… So, when someone gets involved in these things and is having trouble, the best non-medical intervention / remedy is non-belief.  It's like a light switch. 

 

I agree. 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

I agree. 

 

 

 

As one would assume .   But go try it .  G and try and convince someone that really believes they are seeing something , when it IS an hallucination , that it isnt real .

 

Otherwise we would have a revolving door on our psych wards , with people coming in one side, meeting a doctor who says ; " Look,  its not real, just stop believing in it ." And the patients going " OH ? Okay then . " and walking out the door .

 

These ideas might sound fine , but seem totally divorced from the reality of being in the actual experience .

 

You be pushing the proverbial poo uphill with a toothless rake with that one .    When I worked at the hospital, the nurses ( well, the one's that knew what was going on ) would specifically call for me ( to come off my ward and go to their one ) to deal with such cases .; 

" Mrs.  Smith has gone right off ! She insists there is a dog under her bed he bed in the ward and is making an awful fuss about it and disturbing other patents . We even showed her nothing is there , but that just made her more confused . "   So I go into the room ( 4 beds )  and 'Mrs Smith' ,  Immediately  " Who are you and what are you doing here ?"

Me; " Dog catcher ... from the Pound, where is he ?"

" Oh, at last .... under the bed . "

" Right then ! " ... I grab a blanket, go under the bed  ... make growling and dog catching noises ... ' Cummere you ! " ... emerge with a bundled blanket  that I am shaking and wiggling around  and remove the 'dog' .   But then she goes ; " What about the bird !  There is a bird in my drip ! .... thats made it unsterilised ... I;ll get bird flu !  "  and she starts trying to pull her drip out .

Me ; " No no, that bird is not INside your drip , thats a sealed bag a bird cant get in there ... that bird  is sitting on the outside of your drip and because its clear plastic ... you are seeing through it and seeing the bird ... it just looks like  the bird is inside  ... now shoo ! Out you go... ot the window ! "

 

Then she looks at me kindly ; " Oh , yes,of course, silly me  .... " and then  " ... I'm sorry , that wa silly, I think I am a bit confused .

 

" Oh thats fine Mrs Smith , dont worry about that , sometimes when you come out of an anesethetic, you can feel a bit that way , you will be  fine by tomorrow . "  

 

... I' ve caught dogs birds and cats , been the 'housing inspector' , a   WWII correspondent  .... ' the barber' ,  'someone's long dead husband'    .....    

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

You are not using the dictionary meaning of ‘mind-games (it requires ill intent). 

 

The dictionary is incomplete.  That's why there are encyclopedias.

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

Great minds think alike. 

 

As I was telling someone else earlier today.... I'm overdue for a major mistake... when I fail, I fail big.  The good news is, it's usually pretty funny.  Although, it takes me a few days to figure that out.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

 

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

As one would assume .   But go try it .  G and try and convince someone that really believes they are seeing something , when it IS an hallucination , that it isnt real .

 

sometimes I wonder how many people have hallucinations/see things that are not real.

 

Meaning, the phenomenon  only gets to the attention of doctors / psychopersons when it scares people

 

I've seen thing that probably would be called hallucinations, but they never scared me and as a kid I was blissfully unaware that other people did not see them. ( and soon after I learned to keep my mouth shut about them)

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

... I'm overdue for a major mistake... The good news is, it's usually pretty funny. …

(my highlighting)
I think you’ve been “pretty funny” already:

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

The dictionary is incomplete.  That's why there are encyclopedias.

 

 That’s “pretty funny” my friend.  https://www.britannica.com/search?query=Mind games? 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Cobie said:

 That’s “pretty funny” my friend.  https://www.britannica.com/search?query=Mind games? 
 

 

what is this supposed to prove?  do you honestly think that a dictionary defintion contains all there is to know about a concept?

 

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

transactions … transactional analysis”

 

All western magic is transactional.  it is trying to "get something" from the "universe" from an individual, from an "angel" from a "demon".  That's all there is.  Even if it's just for self discovery, or curiousity, it's still transactional.  That's the difference between magic and prayer.  Prayer is devotional, it is giving to a deity.  Magic is "give me"  "My will be done", "I want".  If it's for some other person, it's "they want" or "give me so I can give to them".  It could be altruistic, but it's still trying to "get something".  

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

sometimes I wonder how many people have hallucinations/see things that are not real.

 

Meaning, the phenomenon  only gets to the attention of doctors / psychopersons when it scares people

 

I've seen thing that probably would be called hallucinations, but they never scared me and as a kid I was blissfully unaware that other people did not see them. ( and soon after I learned to keep my mouth shut about them)

 

This thread was started by someone who is troubled by their "visions" what ever they may be.  I'm not sure where you are, but here in America any psychiatric diagnosis requires a negative impact on the the individual's life or the lives of those around them.

 

In western medicine, perscription medication has come a long way as a tool for helping people distinguish between the false perceptions that their brain is creating and objective real world phenomena, but, it is a tool, part of a battery of interventions to help troubled people.  I like to consider them as making space where the root causes can be untangled, if they are not purely chemical imbalances.  And sometimes the medication can be tampered and eliminated once adaqute therapy has been recieved by a patient is open to it.

 

Being open to it is key.  Just getting someone who is hallucinating to trust the Dr. and take their meds regularly can be a very serious roadblock.

 

However, there are people who have treatment resistent hallucinations and delusions.  And that takes professional care, exorcisms from western magicians, do not have good track records for accomplishing any kind of long term recovery, but they do make the exorcist in "western occult magic" feel good, being needed and getting return customers.  And they can tell stories about their successes, which are never verifiable.  And if it doesn't work, they can always blame the victim.  It's all a charade in the western "magical" world.  Psycho-drama.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

what is this supposed to prove?  do you honestly think that a dictionary defintion contains all there is to know about a concept?

 

 

All western magic is transactional.  it is trying to "get something" from the "universe" from an individual, from an "angel" from a "demon".  That's all there is.  Even if it's just for self discovery, or curiousity, it's still transactional.  That's the difference between magic and prayer.  Prayer is devotional, it is giving to a deity.  Magic is "give me"  "My will be done", "I want".  If it's for some other person, it's "they want" or "give me so I can give to them".  It could be altruistic, but it's still trying to "get something".  

 

 

Daniel does know what 'all western magic' is , he appears to only focus on ONE 'blinker vision' of it .   But Magick is declared to be , overall, the pursuit of ones 'True Will' and purpose , where by one can 'offer their light unto the world ' .  Its also about developing yourself to your fullest potential . Like I said, it uses the similar 'magical technology' that religion does .... except 'your priest' is supplanted by yourself .

 

there are many ends to these means ... including devotional  and using prayers .  The basic magical manuscripts show that .

 

Daniel seems to be focusing on 'unscrupulous magicians ' ... yeah , they are out there , and we also find the unscrupulous  in monasteries , churches , meditation centres , etc .

 

As far as this unscrupulous path is concerned , any magician   in many of the main systems ,   would well be aware of this  .... that is if they DID actually undertake training and initiation ;

 

" For wert thou to summon the Gnomes to pander to thine avarice, thou wouldst no longer command them, but they would command thee. Wouldst thou abuse the pure beings of the woods and mountains to fill thy coffers and satisfy thy hunger of Gold? Wouldst thou debase the Spirits of Living Fire to serve thy wrath and hatred? Wouldst thou violate the purity of the Souls of the Waters to pander to thy lust of debauchery? Wouldst thou force the Spirits of the Evening Breeze to minister to thy folly and caprice? Know that with such desires thou canst but attract the Weak, not the Strong, and in that case the Weak will have power over thee. "

[Cobie]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

… dictionary definition … ? 

 

Communication with words is possible when both use the same definitions. You made up your own definition for ‘mind games’ (then referring to sectarian usage by transactional analysis); that’s not how I want to converse, I’ve left this thread.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Cobie

[blue eyed snake]

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

This thread was started by someone who is troubled by their "visions" what ever they may be.  I'm not sure where you are, but here in America any psychiatric diagnosis requires a negative impact on the the individual's life or the lives of those around them.

 

yes, i am aware of that.

 

but the way the DSM classifies these things rubs me the wrong way. ( although I am not up to date, i stopped reading that stuff when the 5th edition saw the press)

 

first they make an arbitrary distinction between hallucination that cause fear or anxiety and those that do not

 

second they make a distinction between hallucinations that are uhm...something like culturally fitting (or not)

 

so, when my devout, church going neighbor has a vision of say Maria, the mother of Jesus then it is "normal"

when I have that same vision, being a convinced heathen, it is "abnormal"

 

when same neighbor has fear-inducing visions of Satan, when on his deathbed, it is "normal" but also fear inducing so in need of treatment.

 

totally illogical and tells us nothing about what is reality, and what is delusion. I do not deem that helpful. 

 

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Communication with words is possible when both use the same definitions. You made up your own definition for ‘mind games’ (then referring to sectarian usage by transactional analysis); that’s not how I want to converse, I’ve left this thread.

 

 

 

Pardon me.  I did not make up my own defintion.  The dictionary does not fully describe concepts.  I appreciate your reliance on them, and I also acknowledge their limitations.  

 

This seems to be a disagreement we have had in the past regarding the over-reliance on a specific dicctionary as opposed to considereing an encyclopedia entry.

 

I think, with the highest respect, that we can have a differing opinion about how to choose the meaning of certain words.  But if the meaning I am choosing is coming from an encylopedia, that is not making up my own defintion.  And, conversely, if you are choosing to define a word with a specific dictionary defintion, that does not mean you are ignoring the encyclopedia... until ... the dictionary is lifted up as the one and only truth and the encyclopedia, which is by definition more complete, is actually being ignored. 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

yes, i am aware of that.

 

but the way the DSM classifies these things rubs me the wrong way. ( although I am not up to date, i stopped reading that stuff when the 5th edition saw the press)

 

first they make an arbitrary distinction between hallucination that cause fear or anxiety and those that do not

 

second they make a distinction between hallucinations that are uhm...something like culturally fitting (or not)

 

so, when my devout, church going neighbor has a vision of say Maria, the mother of Jesus then it is "normal"

when I have that same vision, being a convinced heathen, it is "abnormal"

 

when same neighbor has fear-inducing visions of Satan, when on his deathbed, it is "normal" but also fear inducing so in need of treatment.

 

totally illogical and tells us nothing about what is reality, and what is delusion. I do not deem that helpful. 

 

 

I agree with what you're saying 100%.  It's difficult on so many levels understanding and if needed diagnosing these phenomena.  And those tasked with doing the work of triage and diagnosis are people too.  

 

I have, what I consider a beautiful academic write-up from a credentialed PHD which describes the absolute necessity of the provider to, how can I say this, empty themself of any and all preconcieved biases and assumptions prior to attempting anything theraputic.  That includes diagnosis.  The one seeking help has a context, the one who is sought out for that help also has a context.  The burden is on the provider to do the hard work of dropping their's and meeting their client on the client's level, in client's world, where the client is, without any interference or judgement.

 

But, that's an ideal, and from what I have been told it is almost never happens that way.  And if that context ( which includes cultral background, but is certainly not limited to it ) is highly divergent from the providers, the likeliyhood of misdiagnosis is greatly increased.

 

And then there's the limitations placed on providers by american insurance companies... oh-dear...

 

The one seeking help ends up being responsible for "being in the driver's seat on the road to recovery" when they are in the worst possible position to do so.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

yes, i am aware of that.

 

but the way the DSM classifies these things rubs me the wrong way. ( although I am not up to date, i stopped reading that stuff when the 5th edition saw the press)

 

first they make an arbitrary distinction between hallucination that cause fear or anxiety and those that do not

 

second they make a distinction between hallucinations that are uhm...something like culturally fitting (or not)

 

so, when my devout, church going neighbor has a vision of say Maria, the mother of Jesus then it is "normal"

when I have that same vision, being a convinced heathen, it is "abnormal"

 

when same neighbor has fear-inducing visions of Satan, when on his deathbed, it is "normal" but also fear inducing so in need of treatment.

 

totally illogical and tells us nothing about what is reality, and what is delusion. I do not deem that helpful. 

 

 

Friend and me had a mutual friend that often needed help, she was in an out of local mental health lock up .  She ended up going off with some evangelical church and marrying the pastor !    My mate made a classic observation ;

 

if you rant out loud in strange tongues  and converse with angels and go into spontaneous bliss , on the road out side the ambulance station in town - that's crazy .   But if you do it in a church - thats religion .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Pardon me.  I did not make up my own defintion.  The dictionary does not fully describe concepts.  I appreciate your reliance on them, and I also acknowledge their limitations.  

 

This seems to be a disagreement we have had in the past regarding the over-reliance on a specific dicctionary as opposed to considereing an encyclopedia entry.

 

I think, with the highest respect, that we can have a differing opinion about how to choose the meaning of certain words.  But if the meaning I am choosing is coming from an encylopedia, that is not making up my own defintion.  And, conversely, if you are choosing to define a word with a specific dictionary defintion, that does not mean you are ignoring the encyclopedia... until ... the dictionary is lifted up as the one and only truth and the encyclopedia, which is by definition more complete, is actually being ignored. 

 

 

Well, I looked up a dictionary definition of what an encyclopedia is    

 

You wrong daniel !  and you still arguing with someone (else )   who has left the room .

 

Do you realise what an 'entomological dictionary is ?   Thats the fuller meaning of a word .  You dont get that in an encyclopedia .

 

 

 

ĕn-sī″klə-pē′dē-ə

noun

1. A comprehensive reference work containing articles on a wide range of subjects or on numerous aspects of a particular field, usually arranged alphabetically.
2. The circle of sciences; a general system of instruction in several or all departments of knowledge.
3. Specifically A work in which the various topics included under several or all branches of knowledge are treated separately, and usually in alphabetical order.

and for Daniel

4.  a non-  comprehensive reference work explaining the meaning of individual words .

[silent thunder]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:16 PM, blue eyed snake said:

sometimes I wonder how many people have hallucinations/see things that are not real.

 

Meaning, the phenomenon  only gets to the attention of doctors / psychopersons when it scares people

 

I've seen thing that probably would be called hallucinations, but they never scared me and as a kid I was blissfully unaware that other people did not see them. ( and soon after I learned to keep my mouth shut about them)

You make a potent observation here. 

 

The basic form of perception is hallucination.  All that we perceive is being recognized now as not direct observation, but interpretive hallucination.

 

All human perception is an aproximation, not a direct experience.  

 

Our senses are triggered by signals and we interpret those signals into our perception of reality. 

 

We do not see/hear reality as it is... we transduce our aproximations of reality from signals through the conditioning of our perceptual process.

 

Generally it seem when someone's confessed interpretations of the signals of life do not jive harmoniously with their native culture, (particularly when it makes the majority nervous or frightened), we seperate them and isolate them and treat them, to make ourselves feel better.

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer