"Spirit" in the DDJ

[ChiDragon]

33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

But ,  how do you think my comments on English  word 'spirit'  relate  ( if at all ) to what the term means in the TTC ?  - thats the crux of it

It will throw me off completely. Unless you go into a specific case for me to interpret.

[Michael Sternbach]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Laotze is an atheist and naturalist. He uses ghost(spirit)  as example in people's language to explain so people who would understand.

 

I beg to differ. Yes, Laotzu is a naturalist. But he isn't an atheist. Unless perhaps you would have a particular definition of God in mind.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Michael Sternbach

[Daniel]

58 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Seen in its entirety, no. Not of its own accord. It's essentially a medium for the exchange of information between the things--on all levels--that set it in motion. Much in the way  water and air can carry waves.

 

 

Insofar it can be attracted and accumulated by certain things and places, yes. Which is a matter of resonance, though, not of conscious choice.

 

 

It has a passive or receptive kind of consciousness that simply passes on what it has been imbued with. So (self-)awareness would sound about right.

 

• a medium, like water and air
• it is attracted, accumulated, drawn(?), which is a matter of resonance
• passive consciousness

 

OK.  That's a very interesting version of "spirit".  Not arguing, not disagreeing.  Just completely non-judgy interest.

 

I appreciate the info.  I'll keep that in mind as I am learning the DDJ.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

53 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I beg to differ. Yes, Laotzu is a naturalist. But he isn't an atheist. Unless perhaps you would have a particular definition of God in mind.

I don't believe in God. However, I can talk about your God with you. Do you believe in Tao?

Edited September 19, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 Laotze is an atheist and naturalist. He uses ghost(spirit)  as example in people's language to explain so people who would understand.

 

 I was asking about the english word choice "deity" for 神 in the context of chapter 39?

 

神得一以靈 what is it that Laotze is explaining here?  What is it that Laotze intended for the people to understand?  I am not unfamiliar with atheism like perhaps a common individual at that time and place.  It's a rather simple theological position.  Perhaps the simplest theological position that exists. 

 

So, the word "deity" is not needed for me, it can be avoided.  What is the lesson being taught here from Laotze, the atheist and naturalist?  Please?

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

49 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I beg to differ. Yes, Laotzu is a naturalist. But he isn't an atheist. Unless perhaps you would have a particular definition of God in mind.

 

And that's precisely what I was hoping to discuss at some point in this thread.  Thank you for saying this.

 

On 9/17/2023 at 5:29 PM, Daniel said:

Does it make sense for Laotze to completely avoid any "spiritual" beliefs in the manner of a naturalist atheist by today's standards?

 

a-theist.  theos.  greek.  are we talking about a greek god concept?  if so, then I think we can all agree that Laotze would be completely atheist.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

So, the word "deity" is not needed for me, it can be avoided.  What is the lesson being taught here from Laotze, the atheist and naturalist?  Please?

 

1. 昔之得一者。
2. 天得一以清。
3. 地得一以寧。
4. 神得一以靈。
5. 谷得一以盈。
6. 萬物得一以生。
7. 侯王得一以為天下正。

1. Since those who gained unity:
2. Heaven gained unity became clear;
3. Earth gained unity became peaceful;
4. Deity gained unity became miraculous;
5. Valley gained unity became full;
6. All things gained unity became alive;
7. Rulers gained unity made world peace.

Here is the interpretation of lines 2 to 7 in Chapter 39.
The key words are "gained unity(得一)."  Laotze used Unity to represent Tao. What 得一 means is one who has Tao will be so and so..... It was indicated in lines 2 to 7. Those who are having Tao in their lives will have the benefits as indicated for each entity.

8. On the contrary,
9. Heaven is not clear, afraid it will split;
10. Earth is not peaceful, afraid it will quake;
11. Deity without  miracle, afraid it will disappear;
12. Valley is not full, afraid it will dry out;
13. All things cannot grow, afraid they will extinct;
14. Rulers without standards, afraid they will be overthrown.

Lines 8 to 14 explained that what happened to those who does not have Tao in their lives. The lesson taught here is to accept and live by the principles of Tao; or else otherwise!
 

Edited September 20, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

@ChiDragon,

 

Thank you, that makes good sense.  I think line 11 is important when considering Laotze as an atheist, because, a deity, theos, does not ever dissappear.  It would never fear this.  So, here, like you said, it might be using the word 神, but Laotzu does not actually believe in it.  Certainly not in a western framework of theism.  It is being used as an example among the other examples, but that does not in any way confer a theistic ( theos ) belief.  In this case, it is actually teaching against it.

 

 And thank you for pointing out,  the focus is clearly on 得一 and its converse.

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

It will throw me off completely. Unless you go into a specific case for me to interpret.

 

Does that mean that Lao tsu's  concept of 'spirit'  changes according to specific  case ?

 

Or  ( I am still asking this )

 

is the English word 'spirit' is a bad translation ?

[ChiDragon]

37 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Does that mean that Lao tsu's  concept of 'spirit'  changes according to specific  case ?

 

Or  ( I am still asking this )

 

is the English word 'spirit' is a bad translation ?

Yes, it is a bad translation. The English word "Spirit" is a very broad term. In Chinese, there are different names given to a specific kind of spirits.

Edited September 20, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Does that mean that Lao tsu's  concept of 'spirit'  changes according to specific  case ?

I don't quite get the meaning of the "concept of spirit". If you don't mind, would you just give me a little hint. Thanks.

Edited September 20, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

Not directed to me, but, the most basic concept of spirit is, nephesh, in Hebrew.

 

It is the vital force that produces autonomous bodily functions like breathing, and a heartbeat, pupil dilation, hunger, thirst...

 

It's actually very complicated in my tradition, but, this most basic concept is not too bad.  Here is a detailed write-up on the subject.

 

https://torah.org/learning/mlife-lor8-3/

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

 

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… In Chinese, there are different names given to a specific kind of spirits.

And there are many!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supernatural_beings_in_Chinese_folklore 
 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

On 18/09/2023 at 10:35 PM, ChiDragon said:

Chapter 1 …

Your translation does make a coherent whole with one clear message. So that I applaud. 
 

 

[Cobie]

 

On 18/09/2023 at 10:35 PM, ChiDragon said:

8. Both are regarded as unfathomable; the most occult and profound; …

I agree these are possible meanings of 玄. 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Your translation does make a coherent whole with one clear message. So that I applaud.
 

Thank you! I appreciate your continuous compliments on my posts.

To tell you the truth, at first, I knew nothing about the Tao Te Jing. I tried to read the English translations to begin with. It did not help me much. Then, I tried the native translations. I was still not pleased. So, I dropped by a local Chinese book store and found one book that is very good. I have mentioned it many times here. The author is Chen GuYing( 陳鼓應 ). His book helped me to have a clear understanding of the TTJ. Another lucky thing is that I did not lose my heritage and the meaning of the characters. Finally, with the vast information on the internet, I was able to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Edited September 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:25 PM, ChiDragon said:

In Chinese, there are different names given to a specific kind of spirits.

 

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

And there are many!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_supernatural_beings_in_Chinese_folklore 

 

I missed this detail about the different types of spirits.  Thank you, Cobie, for the wiki-link and highlighting this.

 

ChiDragon, this seems to be a cross-over between daoism and chinese folk religion?  It's true that there are "spirits" "ghosts" and "gods" in daoism?  And some believe in them?  But you are saying Laotze did not?

 

( and I'll add this question paranthetically... what beliefs aren't in daoism?  It's a huge religion, right? )

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Thank you! I appreciate your continuous compliments on my posts.

To tell you the truth, at first, I knew nothing about the Tao Te Jing. I tried to read the English translations to begin with. It did not help me much. Then, I tried the native translations. I was still not pleased. So, I dropped by a local Chinese book store and found one book that is very good. I have mentioned it many times here. The author is Chen GuYing( 陳鼓應 ). His book helped me to have a clear understanding of the TTJ. Another lucky thing is that I did not lose my heritage and the meaning of the characters. Finally, with the vast information on the internet, I was able to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

 

What is your native language, if you don't mind me asking?  And when you say "I did not lose my heritage and the meaning of the characters" are you saying you are Chinese and you knew the meanings of the characters before reading Chen GuYing's book?

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Daniel said:

ChiDragon, this seems to be a cross-over between daoism and chinese folk religion?  It's true that there are "spirits" "ghosts" and "gods" in daoism?  And some believe in them?  But you are saying Laotze did not?

 

( and I'll add this question paranthetically... what beliefs aren't in daoism?  It's a huge religion, right? )

 

Please note that TTJ was written as Laotze's philosophy. It was not intended to be the canon of the Taoism religion. There are two categories of Taoism in Chinese thinking. One is philosophy and the other is religion. The philosophy group is the scholars who wanted to interpret the true meaning of the TTJ as written. The religious group of Taoism selected some chapters of the TTJ that fit their religious beliefs as their canon to create the Taoism religion.

 

[ChiDragon]

47 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

What is your native language, if you don't mind me asking?  And when you say "I did not lose my heritage and the meaning of the characters" are you saying you are Chinese and you knew the meanings of the characters before reading Chen GuYing's book?

My native language is Chinese and I am a native Chinese. I had learned the meanings of the basic characters when I was young. However, there were some ancient characters and terms I was not familiar with until I'd read Chen Guying's book on the interpretation of the DDJ. That is how get to understand the DDJ 99.99%.

At first glance, I had no idea what are these two ancient characters 橐籥meant. Until I read Chapter 5 of TTJ. It is a wind box that iron smith used it to increase the temperature in the furnace.

Edited September 22, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

ChiDragon, this seems to be a cross-over between daoism and chinese folk religion?  It's true that there are "spirits" "ghosts" and "gods" in daoism?  And some believe in them?  But you are saying Laotze did not?

 

 

On 9/20/2023 at 4:28 PM, Daniel said:

Thank you, that makes good sense.  I think line 11 is important when considering Laotze as an atheist, because, a deity, theos, does not ever dissappear.  It would never fear this.  So, here, like you said, it might be using the word 神, but Laotzu does not actually believe in it.  Certainly not in a western framework of theism.  It is being used as an example among the other examples, but that does not in any way confer a theistic ( theos ) belief.  In this case, it is actually teaching against it.

 

I thought we got over that and the subject was closed!

PS As you can see that I am not responding to any spiritual posts here.

Edited September 22, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

At first glance, I had no idea what are these two ancient characters 橐籥meant. Until I read Chapter 5 of TTJ. It is a wind box that iron smith used it to increase the temperature in the furnace.

 

Yay!  I posted a picture of one in another thread before we began this conversation.  The topic was Chapter 5 of the DDJ.

 

Beautiful invention.  Produces consistent air to the furnace when operated manually in both directions.  It's a huge improvement.  Understanding the mechanics of its functioning fits perfectly with what I think is happening in Chapter 5.

 

I know a bit about primitive forge work, the consistent even heat is important for tempering a blade properly.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Yay!  I posted a picture of one in another thread before we began this conversation.  The topic was Chapter 5 of the DDJ.
 

 

I might have missed. May I see it here?

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

I thought we got over that and the subject was closed!

 

Apologies.  I distinguish between deity and spirit.

 

Yes, the deity aspect was certainly closed.

 

Here in America, an Atheist can believe in spirits, ghosts, baba-yaga ( link ), whatever.  It's like I said.  Atheism is a very simple theological position, at least where I am.  It takes a position on 1 thing and 1 thing only.  "I do not believe in God or gods".  That's it.  They might believe in spirits or ghosts, one would need to ask them.

 

Quote

PS As you can see that I am not responding to any spiritual posts here.

 

Understood.  I will not make any spiritual posts.  I only want to know about the DDJ here.  I want to be able to ask questions and listen to the answers.

 

I very much appreciate what you're doing.  Sincerely.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

I might have missed. May I see it here?

 

https://quatr.us/history/bellows-invented-bellows.htm

 

By 400 BC, people in China used ox-hide bellows. They were using more efficient double-action piston box bellows by the early Han Dynasty, about 200 BC. These bellows blow air both when they’re opened and when they’re closed, so they’re more efficient than the pot bellows.

 

 

Cobie also found a picture: