You and Wu in Chapter One

[Cobie]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… I called myself a semi-Taoist …

I called myself a quarter-Taoist, as I like the DDJ very much but stick to my own tradition.  
 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I called myself a quarter-Taoist, as I like the DDJ very much but stick to my own tradition.  
 

 

Yes, I heard you said that before.

[Cobie]

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Edited September 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

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Edited September 23, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Daniel one of my DDJs has an introduction by H van Praag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_van_Praag 

In this introduction he claims the ideas in the DDJ were influenced by Jewish thought (according to him there were Jewish people living in China at the time). 

 

 

Oh, please let stay within the scope of the OP.

[Cobie]

Sorry. Moved to the ‘deleted’ thread.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Daniel]

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Edited September 23, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

Could 異 refer to the difference between presence and absence of a name, or only to difference between names?

We are not just looking at one character 異. This is not a guessing game. We are looking at compound character 異名. In simple Chinese, it means differ in names. It says no more or less.

[Daniel]

29 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Oh, please let stay within the scope of the OP.

 

Hopefully you saw my reply before I wiped it out.  I am not intending to apply my own ideas onto the DDJ.  I want to learn, not to revise what is written.

[ChiDragon]

22 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Case 2.
3. 無名，天地之始。
4. 有名，萬物之母。
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,

The final translation of the interpretation for the contextual meaning of the three lines would be:
3. At the beginning of the sky and earth, there was no name.
4. The mother of all things, there is a name.
7. These two come from one origin but differ in name.

By the contextual meaning, the logic of Line 7 doesn't flow with the Lines 3 and 4.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

I am not intending to apply my own ideas onto the DDJ.  I want to learn, not to revise what is written.

Thank you very much! You are a gentleman and a scholar.
That is what I had started with an open-mind and objective attitude looking into the TTC .

[whocoulditbe?]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

We are not just looking at one character 異. This is not a guessing game. We are looking at compound character 異名. In simple Chinese, it means differ in names. It says no more or less.

That's surprising to me. Are there any other instances of this compound in the DDJ or other classical Chinese texts?

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, whocoulditbe? said:

That's surprising to me. Are there any other instances of this compound in the DDJ or other classical Chinese texts?

Yes, of course, that is part of the Chinese language. There are many examples.

無名: nameless
無有: don't have
橐籥:wind box.

Edited September 24, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The following chapters support Chapter 1 corresponds to 無 and 有.
Chapter 40
3. 天下萬物生於有，
4. 有生於無。
3. All things in the world came from 有(you).
4. 有(you)came from 無(wu).

Edited:
Disregard Chapter 2 as an example.

Chapter 2: 
6.有無相生
6. You(有) and Wu(無 )mutually produce each other.


 

Edited September 25, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The following chapters support Chapter 1 that Tao is the mother of all things.
Chapter 42

1.道生一。
2.一生二。
3.二生三。
4.三生萬物。

1. Tao engenders One;
2. One engenders Two;
3. Two engender Three;
4. Three engenders all things.

Chapter 51

1.道生之，
1. Tao engenders it,

15.生而不有，
15. Engenders it but not possess it.

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Three engenders all things.

 

Three?  道, 無, and 有?  

 

[ChiDragon]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Three?  道, 無, and 有?  

 

1.道生一。
2.一生二。
3.二生三。
4.三生萬物。

Think of it like a pyramid. Tao is the original creator. It produces one thing, one produces the second, and the second produces the third, and so on until all things are created.

Edited September 25, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

… compound …

 

imo 異名 Is two separate characters. According to Sinologists “compounds” are rare in Classical Chinese.  

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 23/09/2023 at 3:55 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

… 異 …

This site has the origin of the character https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/異 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

… Are there any other instances of this compound in the DDJ …

No.  https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing?searchu=異名 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

No.  https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing?searchu=異名 

 

 

translators do not realize that this compound was used abnormally, in place of another ,normal one, which was normally used in this context in the contemporary lit. but they do not know the normal one. thats why they dont understand what the chapter says.

[Cobie]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… the normal one …

What’s the “normal one”? 
 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

All scripts on DIO use 異名 http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC1.pdf 

 

And so do you:

 

20 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… 此两者，同出而异名，these two together produce all differently named things …

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

What’s the “normal one”? 

各异。 gotta compare to this line

洞同天地，浑沌为朴，未造而成物，谓之太一。同出于一，所为各异

 

Huainanzi

[whocoulditbe?]

How could 各異 have been replaced with 異名? Is it down to visual similarity?

Edited September 24, 2023 by whocoulditbe?