Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth

[ChiDragon]

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
 

Laotze said Tao was invisible before and at the origin of the sky and earth. He will back up what he said in the later Chapters of the TTC. Is there anyone interested and would like to point out what are those chapters?

PS
We might start with Chapters 14 and 21.

Edited September 25, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 14 The invisible Tao
1. 視之不見,名曰夷。
2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。
3. 摶之不得,名曰微。
4. 此三者不可致詰，
5. 故混而為一。
6. 其上不皦，
7. 其下不昧，
8. 繩繩不可名，
9. 復歸於無物。
10.是謂無狀之狀，
11.無物之象，
12.是謂惚恍。
13.迎之不見其首，
14.隨之不見其後。
15.執古之道以御今之有。
16.能知古始，
17.是謂道紀。
 

Translated in terse English...
1. View it couldn't see, name, and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name it, and call it Formless.
4. These three are inseparable
5. These three objects blended in one.
6. Its top is not brilliant.
7. Its bottom is not dim.
8. Its continuance is unnameable.
9. Returned to being formless(state of invisibility),
10. Is called a form of no form.
11. An image of formless,
12. Is called obscure.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.
15. Grasp the presence of Tao to see all existing things,
16. Able to understand the ancient origin,
17. It's called the Principles of Tao. 

Editing Note:
1. Still needs to be refined.
2. As of 9-28-23, the refinement has been completed.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Mig]

On 9/25/2023 at 4:10 PM, ChiDragon said:

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.
 

Laotze said Tao was invisible before and at the origin of the sky and earth. He will back up what he said in the later Chapters of the TTC. Is there anyone interested and would like to point out what are those chapters?

PS
We might start with Chapters 14 and 21.

What the purpose of saying that Lǎo zǐ wrote those lines about the Dào? As a reader, what's in it for me whether it was nameless or nothingness? What's the reason to understand those lines and how that can be helpful?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

What the purpose of saying that Lǎo zǐ wrote those lines about the Dào? As a reader, what's in it for me whether it was nameless or nothingness? What's the reason to understand those lines and how that can be helpful?

It is just common sense.

 

PS

If I keep getting this kind of response and attitude, I have just lost my interest in further posting.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChiDragon

[silent thunder]

34 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It is just common sense.

This is an assumption based on your current perceptual modeling. 

It is an opinion you hold currently and does not necessarily apply to all minds in all states of being.

There is no one answer, or one way mate.

[ChiDragon]

37 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

This is an assumption based on your current perceptual modeling. 

It is an opinion you hold currently and does not necessarily apply to all minds in all states of being.

There is no one answer, or one way mate.

Perhaps. It may be. It is not my idea.  My translation was going by the knowledgeable native scholar. It may not be 100% correct but may be 80%.

 

PS

I thought I might share with those who are interested. I guess not.

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Perhaps. It may be. It is not my idea.  My translation was going by the knowledgeable native scholar. It may not be 100% correct but may be 80%.

 

PS

I thought I might share with those who are interested. I guess not.

 

Dont take it to heart  Dragon .    If I was going to offer interpretation of an obscure part of the texts I deal with .... my first consideration could be , for another   ... how would this benefit them ... what's in it for them  ?

 

I dont mind being questioned about my reasons for imparting information .

 

on a forum of course .... we can just blast right over the 'speed hump' and continue on, giving it  or taking no concern .

 

That depends on ones 'suspension' though   .

 

 

... in other words ... do continue . ( I am not going to ask a question yet ... as it might seem to silly     )

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

。

Edited September 28, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 21 The description of the invisible Tao
1. 孔德之容
2. 惟道是從。
3. 道之為物
4. 惟恍惟惚。
5. 惚兮恍兮
6. 其中有象。
7. 恍兮惚兮
8. 其中有物。
9. 窈兮冥兮
10. 其中有精。
11.其精甚真。
12.其中有信。
13.自古及今，
14.其名不去。
15.以閱眾甫。
16.吾何以知眾甫之狀哉！
17.以此。

1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's hazy and indistinctive.
5. Amongst the haziness and indistinctive,
6. It has images.
7. Amongst the haziness and indistinctiveness,
8. It has a thing.
9. It’s minute and dim,
10. It’s a minute substance.
11. The minute substance is real,
12. It can be proven.
13. From present to ancient,
14. Its name does not vanish.
15. Using it to observe the origin of all things.
16. I can recognize the original state of all things!
17. From it.

[Daniel]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:53 AM, ChiDragon said:

10.是謂無狀之狀，
11.無物之象，
12.是謂惚恍。

 

On 9/26/2023 at 9:53 AM, ChiDragon said:

10. Is called a form of no form.
11. An image of formless,
12. Is called obscure.

 

These are the lines that seem significant to me because of the paradox. 

 

On 9/25/2023 at 4:10 PM, ChiDragon said:

Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

 

The earth and the sky are both versions of formless-forms?  Their origin is a formless-form?

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

These are the lines that seem significant to me because of the paradox. 

 

 

The earth and the sky are both versions of formless-forms?  Their origin is a formless-form?

 

Yes, everything is in a formless-form before Tao comes into existence to create them. Chapter 25 will substantiate that. 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 25 The invisible Tao.
1. 有物混成
2. 先天地生
3. 寂兮寥兮
4. 獨立而不改
5. 周行而不殆
6. 可以為天地母
7. 吾不知其名
8. 強字之曰"道"
9. 強為之名曰"大"
10. 大曰逝
11. 逝曰遠
12. 遠曰反
13. 故道大
14. 天大
15. 地大
16. 人亦大
17. 域中有四大
18. 而人居其一焉
19. 人法地
20. 地法天
21. 天法道
22. 道法自然

1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;
4. Independent and stable;
5. Continuously cycling but never exhausted;
6. It may be the mother of heaven and earth.
7. I don't know its name.
8. I'm reluctant to call it "Tao".
9. I'm reluctant to name it "Big".
10. Big says dynamic;
11. Dynamic says far;
12. Far says reciprocating.
13. Therefore, Tao is great.
14. Sky is great.
15. Earth is great.
16. Human is great.
17. In space, there are four great's;
18. Thus human is one of them here.
19. Human follows Earth.
20. Earth follows Sky.
21. Sky follows Tao.
22. Tao follows its own nature.
 

The first 3 lines in this chapter support the OP.

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Chapter 25 The invisible Tao.

 

Thank you!  I have been studying this one.  I very much appreciate the translation.

[Daniel]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

7. 吾不知其名

7. I don't know its name.

 

Compared to:

 

On 9/25/2023 at 4:10 PM, ChiDragon said:

3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

 

Chapt 1 says:    無 was a name given....  

Chapt 25 says:  I don't know its name...

 

Conclusion:  The subject of 25 "There was a thing formed by chaos.... " is not 無 ??

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Conclusion:  The subject of 25 "There was a thing formed by chaos.... " is not 無 ??

Yes. It is 無, but before it was formed by chaos and before the sky and earth were born. After it was form, then it becomes 有. Laotze was reluctantly to call it "Tao".

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

Edited September 29, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Here is the summary to conclude that Tao was invisible at the time before the sky and earth were born.
Chapters 14,21, and 25 support Line 3 of Chapter 1.

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

Chapter 14 The Invisible Tao
1. View it couldn't see, name, and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name it, and call it Formless.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.

Chapter 21 The description of the invisible Tao
1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's hazy and indistinctive.

Chapter 25 The Invisible Tao.
1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;

[dawei]

I'll agree. Nice new interpretation of Wu. . 

[Mig]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:25 PM, ChiDragon said:

Here is the summary to conclude that Tao was invisible at the time before the sky and earth were born.
Chapters 14,21, and 25 support Line 3 of Chapter 1.

Line 3, Chapter 1
3. 無，名天地之始。
3. Invisible, was a name given to Tao at the origin of sky and earth.

Chapter 14 The Invisible Tao
1. View it couldn't see, name, and call it Colorless.
2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.
3. Touch it couldn't feel, name it, and call it Formless.
13. Greet it cannot see its head.
14. Follow it cannot see its back.

Chapter 21 The description of the invisible Tao
1. The appearance of great virtue;
2. Only trails Tao.
3. This thing, Tao,
4. It's hazy and indistinctive.

Chapter 25 The Invisible Tao.
1. There was a thing formed by chaos;
2. Before heaven and earth were born;
3. Soundless and formless;

Did I miss something? Why calling it invisible as it seems that in the 5K words book is talking about the origin of things. If I read Zhuang zi:

齊物論:

古之人，其知有所至矣。惡乎至？有以為未始有物者，至矣盡矣，不可以加矣。 The understanding of the men of ancient times went a long way. How far did it go? To the point where some of them believed that things have never existed - so far, to the end, where nothing can be added. B. Watson translation Isn't he already talking about  things have never existed and is confirmed in the DDJ Ch 40 天下万物生于有，有生于无 The myriad things of the world are born of being Being is born of non-being . Derek Lin translation   Just wondering

[dawei]

Formless may be better to contrast to form or Mass, but invisible works against that which becomes physical, or phenomenon. 

 

But I might warn against trying to say Dao is any THING. To me, it's more a concept on how it all works. That might be why cosmological don't quite know how to name it. The Tai Yi Sheng Shui has similar wording regarding Dao. 

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, dawei said:

... similar wording regarding Dao. 

 

There is a word for it, 道, at least in english:

 

 

Quote

Formless may be better to contrast to form

 

I'm still going with verb-forms on these.  Becoming ( forming ) Manifesting / Unmanifesting Unbecoming (unforming).  They (有, 無 ) are "forms"  verb-forms.  Unmanifesting, " 無 ", is invisible.

 

Edit:  changed word choices to avoid confusion.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Daniel

[ChiDragon]

15 hours ago, Mig said:

Did I miss something? Why calling it invisible as it seems that in the 5K words book is talking about the origin of things. If I read Zhuang zi:

齊物論:

古之人，其知有所至矣。惡乎至？有以為未始有物者，至矣盡矣，不可以加矣。 The understanding of the men of ancient times went a long way. How far did it go? To the point where some of them believed that things have never existed - so far, to the end, where nothing can be added. B. Watson translation Isn't he already talking about  things have never existed and is confirmed in the DDJ Ch 40 天下万物生于有，有生于无 The myriad things of the world are born of being Being is born of non-being . Derek Lin translation   Just wondering

I believe Chapter 1 well defined what 有 and 无 are.
有 is the state of Tao being visible.
无 is the state of Tao being invisible.

天下万物生于有，有生于无
The logic within context is that all things come from the visible Tao, and the visible Tao comes from the invisible Tao. Regardless, of whether Tao is visible or invisible, it is still Tao itself.

Chapter 42:
1. 道生一 
1. Tao engender one. 
This line indicates that Tao is the one(Unity).

Chapter 39
1. 昔之得一者
2. 天得一以清
1 Those who gain Unity
2. Sky gained Unity becomes clear.
The Unity is Tao supported by Line 1 of Chapter 42.

Please note:
All the interpretations can be done within the TTC without any external sources.  There is no need to redefine the terms that have already been done in the TTC. 
 

[Cobie]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… All the interpretations can be done within the TTC without any external sources.  There is no need to redefine the terms that have already been done in the TTC. 

I agree.  
 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Cobie