Khonsu mes

[oak]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Where are you getting the better pics?  

 

Reddit and pinterest...not much left though.

[Apech]

 

This is a line drawing of another part of the papyrus which shows the progress of the sun through the day.  In front of the sun is ma'at.

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Something that might interest you from the same papyrus is these scenes:

 

 

Sorry it's a bit blurred.

 

What you see reading left to right is Thoth presenting Osiris as judge of the dead with the results of the weighing of the heart.  What the Egyptians called 'calculating the difference' - that is the difference in weight between the persons heart (representing their character and volition) and ma'at. 

 

Oh !  I never heard of that step in the process , I always though the weight thing was just 'less than or equal too . is there  a different result depending on the difference calculated ?

 

 

 

Then the weighing scales, then the deceased and his ka.  So here a state of harmony with ma'at is achieved.  This is followed by the square 'lake of flames' - which is a pool surrounded by torches - which I would take to be a state of balanced energy - then by the four steering oars of heaven - which are related to the four directions, four sons of Horus and are about the ability to orientate yourself in spiritual space

 

also representing the Sun's path from east/birth to west/death and intersected by the north south axis of the country / Nile .... or would it be the axis of the Sun 'beneath' at night  ( south underworld ) and its path, north south , seasonal inclination ?

 

 

- then the Bull of Heaven with the seven Hathors or seven skies - which represent I think seven increasingly subtle views of reality.

 

Could that be associated with the 7 planets .... did Egyptians recognize them  .... out to Saturn  ? 

 

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

This is the point at which the deceased's soul has reached the East and is ascending into the sky to witness the sunrise.

 

 

 

 .... and then,   their soul  .....   ? 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Where are you getting the better pics?  

 

he has a direct link to the Akashic record    

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

This is a line drawing of another part of the papyrus which shows the progress of the sun through the day.  In front of the sun is ma'at.

 

 

 

Oh man !   ...

 

( armband tattoo  !!!  ...  make it circular with the hands holding one sun ) 

[oak]

14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

he has a direct link to the Akashic record    

Indirect 😁

[Nungali]

Ooops .  I edited a previous 'respond to this later' instead of a re  'quote' .... see above  ^ .

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

What you see reading left to right is Thoth presenting Osiris as judge of the dead with the results of the weighing of the heart.  What the Egyptians called 'calculating the difference' - that is the difference in weight between the persons heart (representing their character and volition) and ma'at. 

 

Oh !  I never heard of that step in the process , I always though the weight thing was just 'less than or equal too . is there  a different result depending on the difference calculated ?

 

Its like an assay test (is that the right term?) weighing against a standard ounce, lb, gram or whatever - it is meant to be an exact match.  The result of not weighing equal is being fed to Ammit ... ooops!

 

Then the weighing scales, then the deceased and his ka.  So here a state of harmony with ma'at is achieved.  This is followed by the square 'lake of flames' - which is a pool surrounded by torches - which I would take to be a state of balanced energy - then by the four steering oars of heaven - which are related to the four directions, four sons of Horus and are about the ability to orientate yourself in spiritual space

 

also representing the Sun's path from east/birth to west/death and intersected by the north south axis of the country / Nile .... or would it be the axis of the Sun 'beneath' at night  ( south underworld ) and its path, north south , seasonal inclination ?

 

Yes, the Egyptians were a bit odd about directions, they tended to pair North with West and South with East.  There are a whole number of correspondences - organs in the body, the Sons of Horus, the pillars of Shu (which support the sky) and here the rudders of heaven.  This four foldness was recapitulated at every level - earthly, heavenly and in between!  They tended to put South at the top (like the Chinese) but in terms of the body the head was the North and the feet the South.  The sun's journey (on the ecliptic) would cross the Milky Way (the heavenly Nile) just as the dead had to cross the nile to get to the necropolis.  So the Nile defined the North South axis.

 

- then the Bull of Heaven with the seven Hathors or seven skies - which represent I think seven increasingly subtle views of reality.

Quote

Could that be associated with the 7 planets .... did Egyptians recognize them  .... out to Saturn  ? 

 

Some people associate them with the Pleiades stars (7) with the bull as Taurus.  But I favour the idea of seven levels in the sky - as one form of the sky goddess was a cow.

 

Quote

 

 .... and then,   their soul  .....   ? 

 

The Book of the Dead suggests two cycles - in the first you witness many things but especially the sun rising and in doing so you are able to identify with the creator - this is outlined in Chapter 17 of the Book of Dead.  So the first cycle is one of seeing - seeing reality.  The second is one of transformation where you become an immortal being.  More on this later.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Apech

[Apech]

Thanks to the mod team for moving this thread from my ppf to here.

 

One of the things about the Egyptian understanding - which has an influence on how we see our selves, is that they didn't see a person as a single entity.  In fact if you google it you can find up to 9 different entities involved.  I think though that close analysis shows that some of these are different expressions of the same thing.  So I would say that apart from the physical body itself, there are four parts of being - which between them have the potential to lead to the most important fifth - which is the akh, the immortal self.

 

So one way of understanding the Egyptian path, either post mortem or during spiritual work in life, is the exploration of how these four parts of being act and interact, what happens when they separate, and how they can be joined to form a unified being.  This goes a long way to clarifying the processes outlines in the Book of the Dead and other 'underworld texts' such as the Amduat.  

 

The important four parts , or different entities are:

 

- the heart (ib, or ab)

- the ka

- the shade (shwt)

- the ba.

 

 

 

[thelerner]

I learned a bit about Egyptian mythology from an unlikely place.  I have kids and Sesame Street did a strangely touching and indepth movie with their characters helping a trapped prince find his way into the afterlife.  It wasn't childish or hokey, it was remarkably well done. 

If you have kids or spare time, I'd recommend it. 

[S:C]

On 4.10.2023 at 7:43 AM, Nungali said:

, its her feather on one side, she is observing . The actual weighing is the business of 'underworld desert jackals ' , and the recording done by , the early version of 'Hermes'  ( from whom the term Heremetic comes )

I am sorry, I do not understand. Can you explain this? What do desert dogs of the underworld (e.g. a death layer) have to do with the weighing process? And what’s with the symbolical feather? How is Hermes recording? Is there a fable or something about this? 

Thanks @Apech and @Nungali, - enjoyable read, would like to hear more, if there is any. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by stellarwindbubble

[Daniel]

@stellarwindbubble,

 

I see your confused reaction to my post.  Send me a private message if you would like me to explain in more detail.

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Daniel

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Thanks to the mod team for moving this thread from my ppf to here.

 

One of the things about the Egyptian understanding - which has an influence on how we see our selves, is that they didn't see a person as a single entity.  In fact if you google it you can find up to 9 different entities involved.  I think though that close analysis shows that some of these are different expressions of the same thing.  So I would say that apart from the physical body itself, there are four parts of being - which between them have the potential to lead to the most important fifth - which is the akh, the immortal self.

 

So one way of understanding the Egyptian path, either post mortem or during spiritual work in life, is the exploration of how these four parts of being act and interact, what happens when they separate, and how they can be joined to form a unified being.  This goes a long way to clarifying the processes outlines in the Book of the Dead and other 'underworld texts' such as the Amduat.  

 

The important four parts , or different entities are:

 

- the heart (ib, or ab)

- the ka

- the shade (shwt)

- the ba.

 

 

 

 

Ah ... we are at the juice . I would like to examine these concepts in greater detail .   I have a sot of compendium of post mortem / 'types of or 'parts of the '  soul ,  ideas going, from Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Egyptian, Jewish, Indigenous ... etc .

 

Could you expand on your understanding of these 4 concepts  .,.....   please      ( then lets discuss that in relation to their hieroglyphs  )

 

 

and what do you think of this arrangement  ?  :

 

 

 

 

The whole list :

 

 

Aside ;    Speaking  one's name ( ren )  helps maintain their existence ....  but what about THEM speaking after they are dead ?  I recently saw a doco where .... get this .....   they scanned a  dead Pharaoh's voice box , did a 3-d print of it , did some 'computery stuff' and said they where going to hear dead Pharaoh talk again !  

 

But it was a bit of a scam .... nothing like any type of words or language .... just a range of tones and frequencies  and some wiggly lines on a screen .... in any case , someone suggested the mummified voice box had shrunk during the mummification process and any reproductions would not be accurate .   Damn 'scientific journalism '  ... for a moment there I thought I was going to hear an ancient Pharaoh chant some spell in ancient Egyptian in his own voice .

[Nungali]

I meant ' discuss these  FIVE  concepts ....

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, stellarwindbubble said:

I am sorry, I do not understand. Can you explain this? What do desert dogs of the underworld (e.g. a death layer) have to do with the weighing process?

 

'Wepwawet'  - The jackal

 

 

he is the one doing the weighing .  They are 'dogs of the desert'  as they tend to roam there and also eat carrion, so , like the raven, are associated with death , hence  also associated  with the processes of death and after death  , including mummification .  Sometimes seen as a wolf, he is one of the oldest , the 'opener of the ways ' - into Duat  .

 

Normandy Ellis has a wonderful book , a transliteration of 'The Book of the Dead' , called ' Awakening Osiris ' I highly recommend it for  (not necessarily its  academic value but )  but a beautiful and I think insightful , poetic interpretation . One part, describing a woman's death process , she finds herself , a little confused , wandering in the desert at night , not knowing how she got there .  jackals  approach her , sniff her and declare  ' She is alright .... she is one of us .' and her journey continues .  I highly recommend it as a beautiful piece of writing showing Normandy's  concepts of the Egyptian post mortem process .

 

And what’s with the symbolical feather?

 

Its the standard the heart is weighed against . Its Maat's symbol and its  a reference  to what Maat 'rules' over . It represents if one has been following her ( considered the right ) way . It is more defined by the 'negative confession' , declaring one has not done, what is against Maat , if one does go against 'the way' it 'weighs the heart down ' .  In the above story by Normandy , the woman declares  in the hall of judgement , a version of this  :   "  I am a simple woman, but I always tried to right , when the children where hungry, I gave them bread  ... I never adulterated food or polluted the water , I stood up, and threw an axe in the face of evil when I saw it ....  "   The modern figure of 'Justice' and Libra  is a copy from Ma'at .

 

 

 

How is Hermes recording? Is there a fable or something about this? 

 

Well, 'Hermes' is a later  name for  ....  Djehuti   ( I think ,  ... Apech  ?  )  , which turned into  Tehuti  he is recording on a scroll in the image above -  the Ibis headed God .

Thanks @Apech and @Nungali, - enjoyable read, would like to hear more, if there is any. 

 

Oh , there will be more ! 

 

[oak]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

The important four parts , or different entities are:

 

- the heart (ib, or ab)

- the ka

- the shade (shwt)

- the ba.

 

 

 

 

So that's probably from where Carl Jung took the quaternity concept, or it's confirmation. He noticed that it is present in dreams, it seems like there's always the number 4 in our dreams.

Edited October 11, 2023 by oak

[Apech]

14 hours ago, stellarwindbubble said:

I am sorry, I do not understand. Can you explain this? What do desert dogs of the underworld (e.g. a death layer) have to do with the weighing process? And what’s with the symbolical feather? How is Hermes recording? Is there a fable or something about this? 

Thanks @Apech and @Nungali, - enjoyable read, would like to hear more, if there is any. 

 

Hi @stellarwindbubble,

 

The jackal or dog figure in the weighing scene is Anubis (Anpu) who is the primary guide to the dead - or psychopomp as it is sometimes called.  One of his main roles was to be in charge of the Divine Booth or tent where mummification takes place:

 

 

Here he is at work - from the same papyrus (sorry the image is blurred).

 

Essentially you could say he is in charge of the process of taking care of the dead person including mummification.

 

In the judgement scene he checks the balance to see is the person's heart weighs the same as the feather of ma'at.  he reports the result to Thoth (Hermes) who writes it down in the book of life and gives the result to Osiris who acts as judge.

 

There is another jackal/dog god called Wepwawet whose name literally means Opener of the Ways.  He is associated with the city of Abydos where the god Osiris was said to be buried.  Every year he led a procession into the desert to find the tomb of Osiris - and as vanguard of this procession was the one who showed the way ... hence his name.

[Apech]

24 minutes ago, oak said:

 

So that's probably from where Carl Jung took the quaternity concept, or it's confirmation. He noticed that it is present in dreams, it seems like there's always the number 4 in our dreams.

 

I wasn't aware of this.

 

 

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Ah ... we are at the juice . I would like to examine these concepts in greater detail .   I have a sot of compendium of post mortem / 'types of or 'parts of the '  soul ,  ideas going, from Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Egyptian, Jewish, Indigenous ... etc .

 

Could you expand on your understanding of these 4 concepts  .,.....   please      ( then lets discuss that in relation to their hieroglyphs  )

 

 

and what do you think of this arrangement  ?  :

 

 

 

 

The whole list :

 

 

Aside ;    Speaking  one's name ( ren )  helps maintain their existence ....  but what about THEM speaking after they are dead ?  I recently saw a doco where .... get this .....   they scanned a  dead Pharaoh's voice box , did a 3-d print of it , did some 'computery stuff' and said they where going to hear dead Pharaoh talk again !  

 

But it was a bit of a scam .... nothing like any type of words or language .... just a range of tones and frequencies  and some wiggly lines on a screen .... in any case , someone suggested the mummified voice box had shrunk during the mummification process and any reproductions would not be accurate .   Damn 'scientific journalism '  ... for a moment there I thought I was going to hear an ancient Pharaoh chant some spell in ancient Egyptian in his own voice .

 

I don't know about that diagram - so its probably easier if I say how I think things worked.  Also Khaibit should be Shwt ... that's an old Budge mistranslation.

 

 

[Apech]

Here's a better black and white version of the scene I posted above:

 

 

It's a bit easier to see what is going on here.

 

In the centre is Anubis working on the mummification, beneath the bier are some jars of oils used in the process - there are said to be seven oils but only four are shown here.  At the head and foot of the bier are the two sister goddesses, Isis at the foot and Nephthys at the head.  Behind Nephthys is a symbolic pole with a cow skin hanging from it - this is called 'imy-wt' which means 'within the skin' and behind this is Khonsu-mes holding his hands up in a gesture of respect.

 

On the other side of the picture stand four figures, these are the Sons of Horus.  They are connected with the mummification process because they guard four main organs which were removed from the body to aid preservation.  These organs were placed in stoppered jars which are called Canopic Jars and kept separately from the body in a small square chest.

 

Everything in this picture is about the body, that's why the 'imy-wt' symbol is there to show this.  At death there is of course a separation between the physical body and the animating entities which make it live.  During life of course it acts as an anchor for the set of entities - and the in the immediate post death phase it was still thought of as important as a focus - hence the strenuous efforts to preserve it.

 

From medical papyri it is known that the Egyptians had a good grasp of the functions of the body and they could perform types of surgery for instance.  In addition to the skin, bones, circulation system and nervous system they also recognised twenty two subtle channels which connected different parts of the body similar to subtle body channels.  For them the controlling centre of the being, where volition and thought was exercised - was the heart.  They did not place consciousness in the head like we tend to today.  So within the body the most important part was the heart.  That is why it was the heart that was weighed in judgement.

 

Cosmologically, perhaps the most important figures shown are the four Sons of Horus.  They have correspondences at all levels of the cosmos.  As four organs in the body, as the four supports of the sky, as the four steering oars of the sun's boats, as the four cardinal points of the compass and so on.  They are also individually related to the parts of being I mentioned before.  So it's probably easiest to set out these correspondences first.

 

Each of them are placed under the protection of a goddess (in italics).

 

Imsety (man) - South - Liver - ka - Isis

Hapi (ape)      - North - Lungs - heart - Nephthys

Duamutef (jackal)    - East - stomach - ba - Neith

Quebsenuef (hawk) - West - intestines - shade - Serqet

 

Placed together they form a kind of mandala of the personality which can be seen in this beautiful example from Tutankhamun's tomb:

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, oak said:

 

So that's probably from where Carl Jung took the quaternity concept, or it's confirmation. He noticed that it is present in dreams, it seems like there's always the number 4 in our dreams.

 

Oh .... much more than that !

 

Its a 'development' from  3  to  4  and that is a 'Universal pattern'  .

 

Jung himself even 'developed it ' .... adding a fourth 'drive' to Freud's  basic  3  ( ie, Jung's  'religious instinct ' )

[oak]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Oh .... much more than that !

 

Its a 'development' from  3  to  4  and that is a 'Universal pattern'  .

 

Jung himself even 'developed it ' .... adding a fourth 'drive' to Freud's  basic  3  ( ie, Jung's  'religious instinct ' )

 

Indeed.

IMO what's interesting about CJ's therapy is having the re-connection to the sacred as the means to mental health. He would guide his patients on an exploration of their unconscious to find the divine/sacred in it.

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Hi @stellarwindbubble,

 

The jackal or dog figure in the weighing scene is Anubis (Anpu) who is the primary guide to the dead - or psychopomp as it is sometimes called.  One of his main roles was to be in charge of the Divine Booth or tent where mummification takes place:

 

 

Here he is at work - from the same papyrus (sorry the image is blurred).

 

Essentially you could say he is in charge of the process of taking care of the dead person including mummification.

 

In the judgement scene he checks the balance to see is the person's heart weighs the same as the feather of ma'at.  he reports the result to Thoth (Hermes) who writes it down in the book of life and gives the result to Osiris who acts as judge.

 

There is another jackal/dog god called Wepwawet whose name literally means Opener of the Ways.  He is associated with the city of Abydos where the god Osiris was said to be buried.  Every year he led a procession into the desert to find the tomb of Osiris - and as vanguard of this procession was the one who showed the way ... hence his name.

 

How did I forget Anubis / Anpu  ?

 

I even got a little statue of him hovering over a table with a mummy on it .

 

Where they always separate  or did one 'evolve'   out the other ?   Or perhaps are they  'aspects of' each other ?

[Apech]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

How did I forget Anubis / Anpu  ?

 

I even got a little statue of him hovering over a table with a mummy on it .

 

Where they always separate  or did one 'evolve'   out the other ?   Or perhaps are they  'aspects of' each other ?

 

They are easily confused because the iconography is so similar.  And there are other 'jackal' gods.  Even the great huntress goddess Neith (Nit) is a female jackal.  By the way when I say jackal - that is what they are usually called - but I would suggest some kind of hunting dog instead - breed unknown.

 

In Egypt there were several 'main' cult centres where particular sets of gods were worshiped - most notably Heliopolis (On), Memphis, Abydos, Thebes ... but until the very late period there was no universalism - there was always a cultural divide between Upper (South) Egypt and Lower (North) Egypt as well.  So many gods were popular in their local cult centre - but became fused with other pantheons as time went on.  After all 'pagan' really means 'religion of place' in modern understanding.  So most gods were either tutelary gods of cities or localities or protectors.  The exception is the funerary cult - which although it had regional variations was essentially formed from the Heliopolitan cosmology and the Osiris cult.  the union of the souls of Ra and Osiris being the central theme.

 

 

 

 

[S:C]

Out of pure curiosity I will shoot some more questions:

 

Where is the jackal rooted in (archetypically)?

 

And isn’t the Thot (Hermes) and Anubis and Wepwajet part double triple with the Egyptians? Where is the exact difference in their ‚function‘? Both are (spirit) guides for the dead, no?

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by stellarwindbubble
I can delete quotes.