Khonsu mes

[Apech]

21 hours ago, stellarwindbubble said:

Out of pure curiosity I will shoot some more questions:

 

Where is the jackal rooted in (archetypically)?

 

And isn’t the Thot (Hermes) and Anubis and Wepwajet part double triple with the Egyptians? Where is the exact difference in their ‚function‘? Both are (spirit) guides for the dead, no?

 

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Hi,

 

I'm not sure I understand your questions - but just a few thoughts.

 

As I think I mentioned already you can't really tie all the Egyptian gods together because there were many similar place traditions in different parts of Egypt.  So it is quite possible that similar traditions would grow up in different parts of Egypt and then become merged or overlapping in attributes.  There are consistent themes in the Egyptian cosmological view but it is nightmare to try to equate or even relate all of the gods together.

 

The main funerary texts of the Egyptians often state that they were 'good on earth' as well as for the dead.  So the afterlife journey and so on was a kind of meditation for the living also.  Practice dying you might call it.  There were some shamanistic type practices and so on which were based on the afterlife.

 

You are right that both Thoth and Anubis have psychopomp roles.  In the case of Thoth it is about understanding the process and knowing the right words to use for the various things encountered.  You could call this getting the over view - or mapping the process if you like.  Anubis on the other hand is about applying sensitivity to subtle energy to be able to do certain transformations and navigate certain situations or environments you might encounter - a more on the ground approach if you like.

 

If you accept the Egyptian view the gods are not really archetypes, they are living souls which form part of the universe.

 

I don't know if this helps or not.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Apech

[S:C]

49 minutes ago, Apech said:

Thoth it is about understanding the process and knowing the right words to use for the various things encountered.  You could call this getting the over view - or mapping the process if you like.  Anubis on the other hand is about applying sensitivity to subtle energy to be able to do certain transformations and navigate certain situations or environments you might encounter - a more on the ground approach if you like.

 

If you accept the Egyptian view the gods are not really archetypes, they are living souls which form part of the universe.

 

I don't know if this helps or not.

It does: no need for differentiation if there isn’t any significance: so Toth is the rational/yang/left brain aspect and Anubis the touchy/feely/yin/right brain aspect that is leading the (dead)human. Seems reasonable and understandable. 👍

 

p.s: dear fellow cat, would you mind unquoting my hidde/in-brackets-text? it‘s something in a process, unfinished and incoherent mumbling, that I’d probably like to delete later, - I do get embarrassed about incoherency and do not want to lead someone astray / maintain a delusion with incomplete thoughts…. thanks! 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, stellarwindbubble said:

It does: no need for differentiation if there isn’t any significance: so Toth is the rational/yang/left brain aspect and Anubis the touchy/feely/yin/right brain aspect that is leading the (dead)human. Seems reasonable and understandable. 👍

 

p.s: dear fellow cat, would you mind unquoting my hidde/in-brackets-text? it‘s something in a process, unfinished and incoherent mumbling, that I’d probably like to delete later, - I do get embarrassed about incoherency and do not want to lead someone astray / maintain a delusion with incomplete thoughts…. thanks! 

 

I can't delete quotes you'll have to ask a mod.

[Cobie]

.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Cobie

[Apech]

34 minutes ago, Cobie said:

You can delete the quote. Click top-left corner of the quote twice, when it shows the plus-sign in bold, click delete twice.

 

 

Oh - have I done it ... I'm a boomer - need help.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Apech

[oak]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 but I would suggest some kind of hunting dog instead - breed unknown

 

I've been interested in dog breeds lately.

@Apech meet the Pharaoh Hound...

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

 

They are easily confused because the iconography is so similar.  And there are other 'jackal' gods.  Even the great huntress goddess Neith (Nit) is a female jackal.  By the way when I say jackal - that is what they are usually called - but I would suggest some kind of hunting dog instead - breed unknown.

 

yes, in some depictions  the shape of the ears and tail are different and distinguished  ( for specific ID ? ) . Aboriginal does this too, in certain styles ; it might vaguely , look like a type of animal , but a small feature that is prominent might separate it out to the specific animal of that type , perhaps the exaggerated shape of an eye .  Another is pointed out by an Aboriginal ; " That huge rock carving down there  below the cliffs  ( and this is just south of Bondi beach ) is a  female whale ."

 

" How do you know that ?"

 

" See that shape of a small flipper  out to the side , and below, a small tail shape that is obscured by the main figure ? The whole whale image is an unbroken line , this indicates it has been transposed over the other  ... oir in Aboriginal speak , one is below the other .... thats the baby , under the mother , whales  often swim like that with the calf being under and protected by the mother . "

 

-  There is an exception ; In a pod, the calves might be kept in to the center  and the males be driven to the outside , for protection of the calves  *  , at the 'whale nursery' near Exmouth Western Australia , I have seen a mumma whale, in shallow water ( in safe surrounds ) , lying on the bottom, belly up, with the calf on top , suckling .

 

*  One reason why  whales in captivity  (killer whales ) go nuts ; a female will always attempt to drive the male to the outside , of course, in a  'tank' no matter how large , there is no 'outside' resulting in continual 'harassment'  by the female

 

In Egypt there were several 'main' cult centres where particular sets of gods were worshiped - most notably Heliopolis (On), Memphis, Abydos, Thebes ... but until the very late period there was no universalism - there was always a cultural divide between Upper (South) Egypt and Lower (North) Egypt as well.  So many gods were popular in their local cult centre - but became fused with other pantheons as time went on.  After all 'pagan' really means 'religion of place' in modern understanding.  So most gods were either tutelary gods of cities or localities or protectors.

 

This was and in some cases , still is,  the way Aboriginals see it .   It is intimately connected with location , primarily via the local 'God' and secondarily by ones totem animal , which is like a God or 'species God'  .... a bit like the way concept of 'neter' can include locality, God, standard , 'concept' , people, and a range of similar associations to that neter .

 

  The exception is the funerary cult - which although it had regional variations was essentially formed from the Heliopolitan cosmology and the Osiris cult.  the union of the souls of Ra and Osiris being the central theme.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Oh - have I done it ... I'm a boomer - need help.

 

'   Khonsu -  Mess . '

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, oak said:

 

I've been interested in dog breeds lately.

@Apech meet the Pharaoh Hound...

 

 

Looks like a cross between an African hunting dog - or 'African wild dog' - and a whippet .

 

 

[Nungali]

... wild dog has the same tail as the Egyptian 'God' , the above dog doent have a tail like that , it does have the ear shape but the wild dog has a different ear shape .

[oak]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

... wild dog has the same tail as the Egyptian 'God' , the above dog doent have a tail like that , it does have the ear shape but the wild dog has a different ear shape .

 

Actually the experts say that the place of origin of the Pharaoh Hound is Malta, however a friend of mine used to have a black coloured one which was called Anubis. It was just like the picture.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by oak
Add picture

[Apech]

1 hour ago, oak said:

 

Actually the experts say that the place of origin of the Pharaoh Hound is Malta, however a friend of mine used to have a black coloured one which was called Anubis. It was just like the picture.

 

 

 

The other mystery is the Set beast ... no one knows for sure what that was either:

 

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

‘ Khonsu -  Mess . '

Eton mess

 

 

[oak]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

The other mystery is the Set beast ... no one knows for sure what that was either:

 

Peacock head ??

[Apech]

13 minutes ago, oak said:

Peacock head ??

 

Errrr no!

 

[oak]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Errrr no!

 

 

Lizzardy then, would you say?

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Cobie

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

Keep trying. I think you should remove the  @stellarwindbubble quote.

 

 

Have I done it now?

[Apech]

I wanted to talk a bit about the heart and ma'at.

 

According to tradition the Sun (who has various names such as Ra or Atum or Khepera etc.) creates the world.  Before creation there is what is described as the primordial waters.  These waters have four qualities - darkness, wateriness, infinity and hiddenness.  The last one, hiddenness is sometimes called 'lostness'.  That is because in that dark infinity there are no directions and so no way to say what is left or right or up or down.  Nothing can be said to be in any position in relation to anything else - and so it is chaotic, formless and so on.  It is said that the Sun god could find no place to stand.  To stand in Egyptian is related to words for place or site - so the sun had no location in which to exist.  That is until the Sun god stood on his own heart.  He used his heart as the locus from which to bring the cosmos into being.  That is he became his own origin point from which all other dimensions and positions could be measured.  When he created there first became light/air and dark/moisture, then the sky above and earth below and so on.  So the world had structure and was no longer hidden or lost.  This structure, the essential order of the universe was ma'at (personified as the sun god's daughter).

 

So there is an immediate cosmological link between heart as the origin point for creation and ma'at as cosmic order.

 

We each have a heart in our body, which is both the hollow muscular pump of science and also the seat for our minds and volition.  Our characters are shaped by our hearts - how we conduct ourselves is informed by whatt is in our hearts.  So as an echo of the Sun god we have choices in how we conduct ourselves - either in harmony with ma'at which is usually exampled by acts of kindness and care for others - or chaotically ruled by passions and greed etc. which are seen as ingress of primordial chaos into out lives.  

 

What is in accord with ma'at is usually codified by something called the Negative Confession - which are 42 statements saying that you have not done acts which are against ma'at - here is an example from the Papyrus of Nu:

 

Quote

I have not committed sins against men.

I have not opposed my family and kinsfolk.

I have not acted fraudulently in the Seat of Truth.

I have not known men who were of no account.

I have not wrought evil.

I have not made it to be the first [consideration daily that unnecessary] work should be done for me.

I have not brought forward my name for dignities.

I have not [attempted] to direct servants. [I have not domineered over slaves.]

[I have not belittled God].

I have not defrauded the humble man of his property.

I have not done what the gods abominate.

I have not vilified a slave to his master.

I have not inflicted pain.

I have not caused anyone to go hungry.

I have not made any man to weep.

I have not committed murder.

I have not given the order for murder to be committed.

I have not caused calamities to befall men and women.

I have not plundered the offerings in the temples.

I have not defrauded the gods of their cake-offerings.

I have not carried off the fenkhu cakes [offered to] the Spirits.

I have not committed fornication.

I have not masturbated [in the sanctuaries of the god of my city].

I have not diminished from the bushel.

I have not filched [land from my neighbour's estate and] added it to my own acre.

I have not encroached upon the fields [of others].

I have not added to the weights of the scales.

I have not depressed the pointer of the balance.

I have not carried away the milk from the mouths of children.

I have not driven the cattle away from their pastures.

I have not snared the geese in the goose-pens of the gods.

I have not caught fish with bait made of the bodies of the same kind of fish.

I have not stopped water when it should flow.

I have not made a cutting in a canal of running water.

I have not extinguished a fire when it should burn.

I have not violated the times [of offering] the chosen meat offerings.

I have not driven away the cattle on the estates of the gods.

I have not turned back the god at his appearances.

 

This is what you are judged against at the Weighing of the Heart in the underworld - and shows how important conduct was to the Egyptians - that is conduct in what we would consider normal human interactions and also in relation to the gods, their offerings and rites.

 

What you do in life is carried with you, by your heart to the Judgement Hall, making this perhaps the foremost most important part of being in the first stage of your post mortem journey.

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

Eton mess

 

 

 

Eatin' mess

[Apech]

 

This short section from Khonsu-mes illustrates the day part of the sun cycle (as distinct to the night time journey through the underworld).

 

The figures at either extreme (left and right) represent the Eastern and Western horizons and have outstretched arms supporting the solar disk (aten).  They define the boundaries of the day i.e. the 12 hours daylight part of the day,  The East being the poiint of origin from which things arise and the West where they sink into embodiment and death.

 

The sun itself is shown with a hawk head and solar disk on his head, walking (i.e. in motion) and is given the composite name of Ra-Hor-akhety (Gk. Re Hamarchis) which could be translated as the solar energy which is awareness between the horizons.  He is being adored by two figures.  Behind him is the god Heka (magic) wearing the 'peh' symbol of the hindquarters of a lion and in front is Ma'at the goddess of order and daughter of the sun.

 

Next in hieroglyphs is written Djet a word for everlasting time.  Then a seated figure with upraised arms named 'heh' which means eternity.  Then a figure with a tally stick (for counting) on his head which is ren-pet meaning 'years'.

 

This scene could be read something like this.  The energy/awareness moves from the origin to the end (alpha to omega) powered by the field of magic power (heka) and produces order/structure (maat) in doing so.  This occurs endlessly through beginningless serial time (djet) and in eternal cyclic time (heh) ... for ever and ever through the years.