LDT Woes

[TowardTheosis]

From what I've gathered via self study, the Lower Dan Tien (LDT) is the primary governor of the body's qi supply. It acts as a distribution system to all of the other energy centers of the body and has a huge impact on the body's overall health. My personal practice seems to affirm these details. Whenever I bring my mind down to the LDT, I do feel an immediate sense of relaxation, increased warmth throughout my limbs, a stronger sensation of strength in my legs and overall musculature, and a slowing down of the racing, monkey mind. 

 

Wonderful benefits. 

 

These benefits do not come without detrimental consequences. They last for about a good hour or so, but once they dissipate I am left in a weakened state that I cannot explain. 

 

I become extremely tired and groggy. My mind slows to the point of dullness, and I find that it is difficult for me to maintain any decent degree of concentration. There's a bout of pronounced lethargy that just seems to overtake me. I become emotionally apathetic, my social charisma disappears, and without jumping into TMI territory my sexual energy also evaporates. I have a very difficult time performing after meditating on the LDT if I haven't taken a rejuvenating nap first. 

 

Would any of you more experienced practitioners have some idea as to why this happens? 

[Taoist Texts]

15 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

why this happens? 

because

15 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

I bring my mind down to the LDT,

it gets stuck down there

[TowardTheosis]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

because

it gets stuck down there

What then is the remedy? Is it that my mind is stuck or that my qi does not flow well?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

What then is the remedy?

ironically what you think to be

On 9/29/2023 at 6:03 PM, TowardTheosis said:

detrimental consequences.

are in fact excellent results.  This what success in the LDT practice looks like. So if you dont want to enjoy it, i guess you can sabotage it and call it a remedy;)

[Mark Foote]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:03 AM, TowardTheosis said:

From what I've gathered via self study, the Lower Dan Tien (LDT) is the primary governor of the body's qi supply. It acts as a distribution system to all of the other energy centers of the body and has a huge impact on the body's overall health. My personal practice seems to affirm these details. Whenever I bring my mind down to the LDT, I do feel an immediate sense of relaxation, increased warmth throughout my limbs, a stronger sensation of strength in my legs and overall musculature, and a slowing down of the racing, monkey mind. 

 

Wonderful benefits. 

 

These benefits do not come without detrimental consequences. They last for about a good hour or so, but once they dissipate I am left in a weakened state that I cannot explain. 

 

I become extremely tired and groggy. My mind slows to the point of dullness, and I find that it is difficult for me to maintain any decent degree of concentration. There's a bout of pronounced lethargy that just seems to overtake me. I become emotionally apathetic, my social charisma disappears, and without jumping into TMI territory my sexual energy also evaporates. I have a very difficult time performing after meditating on the LDT if I haven't taken a rejuvenating nap first. 

 

Would any of you more experienced practitioners have some idea as to why this happens? 
 

Twelfth-century Chinese teacher Foyan spoke of two sicknesses in Zen:
 

In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness.  One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey.  The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey.

… Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat.  I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey!
 

(“Instant Zen:  Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4)

 

 

From a piece I'm writing:

 

Shunryu Suzuki spoke about the difference between “preparatory practice” and “shikantaza”, or “just sitting”:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer)
 

 

Suzuki said that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of “doing something”, and that “doing something” makes such practice only preparatory.

 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(Common Ground)
 

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages (see A Way of Living).
 

It's that mechanism of support that is the power in the martial arts, if you ask me.  

 

Directing attention to the LDT, preparatory practice.  Attention placed at the LDT out of necessity in the movement of breath, human nature some of the time, given a presence of mind.  Activity of the body purely by virtue of the location of attention--when “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention.  Attempting to act by virtue of the location of attention all the time--refusal to dismount.

[ChiDragon]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:03 AM, TowardTheosis said:

Whenever I bring my mind down to the LDT, I do feel an immediate sense of relaxation, increased warmth throughout my limbs, a stronger sensation of strength in my legs and overall musculature, and a slowing down of the racing, monkey mind. 

 

Wonderful benefits. 

 

These benefits do not come without detrimental consequences. They last for about a good hour or so, but once they dissipate I am left in a weakened state that I cannot explain. 

Besides focusing on your LDT, you have not described what were you practicing. May I ask what were you trying to accomplish?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 29/09/2023 at 5:03 PM, TowardTheosis said:

From what I've gathered via self study, the Lower Dan Tien (LDT) is the primary governor of the body's qi supply. It acts as a distribution system to all of the other energy centers of the body and has a huge impact on the body's overall health. My personal practice seems to affirm these details. Whenever I bring my mind down to the LDT, I do feel an immediate sense of relaxation, increased warmth throughout my limbs, a stronger sensation of strength in my legs and overall musculature, and a slowing down of the racing, monkey mind. 

 

Wonderful benefits. 

 

These benefits do not come without detrimental consequences. They last for about a good hour or so, but once they dissipate I am left in a weakened state that I cannot explain. 

 

I become extremely tired and groggy. My mind slows to the point of dullness, and I find that it is difficult for me to maintain any decent degree of concentration. There's a bout of pronounced lethargy that just seems to overtake me. I become emotionally apathetic, my social charisma disappears, and without jumping into TMI territory my sexual energy also evaporates. I have a very difficult time performing after meditating on the LDT if I haven't taken a rejuvenating nap first. 

 

Would any of you more experienced practitioners have some idea as to why this happens? 

Can you please describe exactly how you are practicing? Every step you are taking 

[TowardTheosis]

12 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

ironically what you think to be

are in fact excellent results.  This what success in the LDT practice looks like. So if you dont want to enjoy it, i guess you can sabotage it and call it a remedy;)

 

Would you be able to expound a bit more on what you mean?

 

Bringing attention to the LDT is (again, from what I gather in my own research) supposed to yield the benefits I referenced above, but is it your assertion that the heavy fatigue is somehow also a part of that constellation of benefits? 

 

Is the fatigue a necessary stage of developing the LDT?

[TowardTheosis]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Besides focusing on your LDT, you have not described what were you practicing. May I ask what were you trying to accomplish?

 

Forgive me for not providing these details in my original post. 

 

I dabble in meditation with the LDT as a focus. The bulk of my practice is taken from Yong Hua's Chan Handbook where he details Chan methods of developing samadhi using that energy center. Energy flows where attention goes, per the aphorism, and Yong Hua encourages his students to anchor the mind at the navel to train both the accumulation of qi and concentration. 

 

The fatigue that I mentioned always follows (after about an hour or so) my placement of my attention on the LDT regardless of what I happen to be doing beforehand, but I'll speak on the most recent instance to hopefully shine some light on what may be going on. This particular incident took place at the gym. I weightlift to support my health, and that day saw me moving through a fairly heavy assortment of compound exercises. I was tired, but I sensed that much of my fatigue was the result of my mind being scattered rather than my body being fully exhausted. 

 

So, in between sets, I placed my index finger just at my navel to help guide my focus to that point. Initially, things were great. I felt a renewed sense of power coursing throughout my body accompanied by a nimble concentration that empowered me to knock out the remainder of my exercises without any obstacles and to make my way back home. 

 

It was only later that things took a turn for the worse. 

 

 

[TowardTheosis]

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Can you please describe exactly how you are practicing? Every step you are taking 

 

Please reference my most recent reply to @ChiDragon. I'm happy to provide any additional details as needed.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

The fatigue that I mentioned always follows (after about an hour or so) my placement of my attention on the LDT regardless of what I happen to be doing beforehand, but I'll speak on the most recent instance to hopefully shine some light on what may be going on. This particular incident took place at the gym. I weightlift to support my health, and that day saw me moving through a fairly heavy assortment of compound exercises. I was tired, but I sensed that much of my fatigue was the result of my mind being scattered rather than my body being fully exhausted. 

 

So, in between sets, I placed my index finger just at my navel to help guide my focus to that point. Initially, things were great. I felt a renewed sense of power coursing throughout my body accompanied by a nimble concentration that empowered me to knock out the remainder of my exercises without any obstacles and to make my way back home. 

 

It was only later that things took a turn for the worse. 

Ok first of all stop doing this.

 

Don’t mix meditation and physical exercise or other of your daily activities.

 

You should focus on your lower dantien during meditation (use the dhyana mudra to help) and the lower dantien is located around 2-3 inches below your navel, and inside your body, not at your navel.

[diggorydogood]

4 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

I was tired, but I sensed that much of my fatigue was the result of my mind being scattered rather than my body being fully exhausted.

 

I’m not understanding what you’re doing exactly so I need to take a step back and ask some follow up questions.

To understand:

1. At some point in the day you are performing what is considered stillness (for some period of time). How long are you doing stillness

2. You go to the gym to support your physical body and that you are feeling fatigued quicker.

3. You then place focus on the LDT because hey you felt heat and such and assert mentally hey if I focus here I won’t feel as tired

4. You finish a set and then an hour later you feel fatigued again

 

Is that correct?

Also

 

What is your diet consisting of? Sleeping pattern? Stress? Sexual health? Sensations you feel during meditation? Physical sickness (e.g. cold, flu,) and etc. All of this and then some affect on your practice especially in the beginning of your practice.

 

Generally, you’re not necessarily supposed to feel heat radiating over your body during stillness per se. It’s supposed to ideally stay in the lower dan tian so the location of the heat should be minimal and at that area (amongst a few other sensations I won’t really get into). But it sounds like you have some deviation. Have you gone to an acupuncturist locally so they can inform you which organs are out of balance?

 

Are you over concentrating during stillness? Because it sounds like to me you’re not entering stillness you may be entering the void which again it happens to everyone in the beginning. It also seems like you don’t have a proper anchor to the area either and you may be assuming what the area is supposed to feel like and what it anchors to (just from reading a bit of the book you referenced for the actual practice itself).

 

My suggestion here is to find an acupuncturist and potentially get some herbs. I think for most starting out what you’re feeling is health related with knowing the proper practice and proper breathing method. But also, I think you need to understand how to properly focus on the LDT and what sensation should be your anchor.

 

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

ironically what you think to be

are in fact excellent results.  This what success in the LDT practice looks like. So if you dont want to enjoy it, i guess you can sabotage it and call it a remedy;)

 

These are also not excellent results nor what success of the LDT practice looks like at all. Again I refer to any Daoist texts which actually describe what happens with proper meditation and what should occur:

 

 

Perhaps you should read a few of them and come back. For your own education.

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

Would you be able to expound a bit more on what you mean?

let's let the local experts explain. then if you wish send me a PM

[diggorydogood]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

let's let the local experts explain. then if you wish send me a PM

 

I'll also ask why you think these are signs of progress because in most cases, it isn't a sign of progress. It's a sign of deviation at its worst and something less at its best

Edited October 1, 2023 by diggorydogood

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, diggorydogood said:

I’m not understanding what you’re doing exactly

 

The screen-name is "toward-theosis"  Theos... a greek god concept.... towards a greek god concept appears to be "what they're doing exactly"

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Daniel

[TowardTheosis]

8 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The screen-name is "toward-theosis"  Theos... a greek god concept.... towards a greek god concept appears to be "what they're doing exactly"

 

 

You may not have had a chance to see my message in the Welcome forum, but I am an Orthodox Christian. Theosis is intimately connected to our concept of salvation and would be roughly analogous to the Western Christian concept of divinization.

 

That aside, I meditate and practice qigong to maintain my health. These wellness practices are not directly connected to my spiritual path. 

[Daniel]

38 minutes ago, TowardTheosis said:

 

You may not have had a chance to see my message in the Welcome forum, but I am an Orthodox Christian. Theosis is intimately connected to our concept of salvation and would be roughly analogous to the Western Christian concept of divinization.

 

That aside, I meditate and practice qigong to maintain my health. These wellness practices are not directly connected to my spiritual path. 

 

Thank you, that is a good clarification.  The concern over physical gratification and charisma in the OP describes something else.  And I was careful not to judge in particular, although, in general divinization, just like anything, has benefits and liabilities.

 

The author known as "paul" writes:

 

NIV:

 

Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

 

And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—

 

Does this, perhaps, explain what you were observing in yourself?  It is a lofty aspiration, especially the last line.  Lacking this obedience, the gains would be perceived as a loss.

[Apech]

This is quite an interesting thread although a little confused perhaps.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

This is quite an interesting thread although a little confused perhaps.

Yes let’s bring this back to actual practice and results. 
 

On 29/09/2023 at 5:03 PM, TowardTheosis said:

I become extremely tired and groggy. My mind slows to the point of dullness, and I find that it is difficult for me to maintain any decent degree of concentration. There's a bout of pronounced lethargy that just seems to overtake me. I become emotionally apathetic, my social charisma disappears, and without jumping into TMI territory my sexual energy also evaporates. I have a very difficult time performing after meditating on the LDT if I haven't taken a rejuvenating nap first. 

This should not be happening at all. Anyone who says this is the correct outcome is wrong, simple as that. 
 

All of this stuff should be improving from a legitimate practice, not getting worse. 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

 

Forgive me for not providing these details in my original post. 

 

I dabble in meditation with the LDT as a focus. The bulk of my practice is taken from Yong Hua's Chan Handbook where he details Chan methods of developing samadhi using that energy center. Energy flows where attention goes, per the aphorism, and Yong Hua encourages his students to anchor the mind at the navel to train both the accumulation of qi and concentration. 

 

The fatigue that I mentioned always follows (after about an hour or so) my placement of my attention on the LDT regardless of what I happen to be doing beforehand, but I'll speak on the most recent instance to hopefully shine some light on what may be going on. This particular incident took place at the gym. I weightlift to support my health, and that day saw me moving through a fairly heavy assortment of compound exercises. I was tired, but I sensed that much of my fatigue was the result of my mind being scattered rather than my body being fully exhausted. 

 

So, in between sets, I placed my index finger just at my navel to help guide my focus to that point. Initially, things were great. I felt a renewed sense of power coursing throughout my body accompanied by a nimble concentration that empowered me to knock out the remainder of my exercises without any obstacles and to make my way back home. 

 

It was only later that things took a turn for the worse. 

 

I will recommend Cheng Man-Ch'ing's "Thirteen Chapters" to you.  

That got away from me.  The cat wants attention!

 

Energy flows where attention goes, but what you are doing is the first part of koun Franz's advice here, and the second is what I referred to earlier:

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. 

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

( “No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

 

An easier way to experience letting the base of consciousness move away from the head is in falling asleep:

 

… Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them).
 

… when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.

 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

As you mentioned there is something special about the early morning hours, the state of mind/body after a few hours of sleep that makes this practice very conducive to working.”
 

--humbleone, “The Dao Bums”, 2012

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

dupe, sorry.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Mark Foote

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

This particular incident took place at the gym. I weightlift to support my health, and that day saw me moving through a fairly heavy assortment of compound exercises. I was tired, but I sensed that much of my fatigue was the result of my mind being scattered rather than my body being fully exhausted. 

Thank you for your input for analysis. Weightlifting is a strenuous exercise, I have to conclude that your fatigue was from that. During your weightlifting exercise, your increase in blood circulation consumes lots of body energy. However, your heart will come to a rest point when you stop lifting and start to rejuvenate. At the rest point, the body will become fatigued until the body returns to its normal state. Focusing on the LDT has no effect on fatigue. As  @Pak_Satrio had stated above, it should make it better not worse. If you do not know how to regulate your breathing, then, do not go into meditation immediately after weightlifting.

 

16 hours ago, TowardTheosis said:

So, in between sets, I placed my index finger just at my navel to help guide my focus to that point. Initially, things were great. I felt a renewed sense of power coursing throughout my body accompanied by a nimble concentration that empowered me to knock out the remainder of my exercises without any obstacles and to make my way back home.

FYI There are lots of nerves behind the navel. So, when you place your finger on it, you will feel a pleasant feeling inside your abdomen.  I think you are getting some fallacies from reading your books without proper guidance.  That is what it sounds like to me from your input.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I think you are getting some fallacies from reading your books without proper guidance. 

Yes, having an experienced teacher is always better than trying to read a book and figuring things out for yourself.

 

Best would be a live in person teacher but if there are no good ones around you there are plenty of good ones online who teach over Zoom. 

 

 

[diggorydogood]

15 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The screen-name is "toward-theosis"  Theos... a greek god concept.... towards a greek god concept appears to be "what they're doing exactly"

 

This is also not what I meant given the follow up questions. 

 

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes, having an experienced teacher is always better than trying to read a book and figuring things out for yourself.

 

Best would be a live in person teacher but if there are no good ones around you there are plenty of good ones online who teach over Zoom. 

 

 

 

Wholeheartedly agree. Especially given the risk of deviation and overall misconceptions about what’s happening.

[Master Logray]

On 10/1/2023 at 12:54 PM, TowardTheosis said:

 

I dabble in meditation with the LDT as a focus. The bulk of my practice is taken from Yong Hua's Chan Handbook where he details Chan methods of developing samadhi using that energy center. Energy flows where attention goes, per the aphorism, and Yong Hua encourages his students to anchor the mind at the navel to train both the accumulation of qi and concentration. 

 

 

 

I looked up about Yong Hua.  It is a type of Zen Buddhist meditation.  Comparing with Taoist practices, which are quite body centric, Chan/Zen are mostly mind stuff.  It is not expected nor heard to have substantial effects, whether good or bad, on the body.   The methods outlined do look like Taoist practice.   But the book doesn't mention LDT? 

 

So I don't think your Chan meditation leads to fatigue, especially to that level of fatigue.