probably posted way before:

[old3bob]

 

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Edited October 19, 2023 by old3bob

[stirling]

Quote

You see yourself in the world while I see the world in myself. To you, you get born and die; while to me, the world appears and disappears. - Nisargadatta Maharaj

 

The Past and the Future are thoughts happening now.

 

[old3bob]

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Edited October 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Mig]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:37 PM, stirling said:

 

The Past and the Future are thoughts happening now.

 

Isn't that subjective? My past recollections are in the present because I am thinking about it now but those were past experiences that my memory helps me to live them again in my head. As for the future, I don't have a clue, those are just thoughts that may happen or may not happen or half happen depending on millions of circumstances. And what is your sentence related to Zhuang zǐ?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

Isn't that subjective? My past recollections are in the present because I am thinking about it now but those were past experiences that my memory helps me to live them again in my head. As for the future, I don't have a clue, those are just thoughts that may happen or may not happen or half happen depending on millions of circumstances. And what is your sentence related to Zhuang zǐ?

 

It does seem subjective, until it is your experience.   I'm glad the idea was irritating enough to make you comment.

 

I am not urging anyone to blindly accept this idea, but instead to explore it carefully in as unbiased a manner as possible for you. You may find your concreted ideas don't allow you to explore it without correcting you constantly, in which case it may be a waste of time to take it further.

 

If you find you are able the idea, I would examine (preferably in meditation where the playing field is much flatter):

 

Is my memory of the past unique, or does everybody have the same experience of it, (is it entirely subjective)? Can I be present in the past, or is it always recalled in memory? Experientially, does this moment seem have a more legitimate reality, and if so, how or why? 

 

How does this all relate to Zhuang Zi? This was over a month ago and the quote has inexplicably disappeared, along with my memory, so I can't illuminate you. Funny how these things work, eh?

 

Wondering aloud, but I wonder why young Robert decided that his posting needed to be deleted... 

 

 

[Dao of Rob]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:37 AM, stirling said:

 

The Past and the Future are thoughts happening now.

 

 

Correct. There is only one day, and we're in it. Some years back I had and interview with an old vietnamese nun to see if I could attend zen meditation at her centre. She said very matter-of-factly 'the past is not real, the future is not real'. It is paradoxical to minds that think in terms of 'before and after', 'cause and effect' and for whom it's true that 'if I save money for retirement now I'll be better off in the future'. But that's because language and the concept of time are bound up together. Forgetting both for a while helps us see what is real rather than imagined ... and sorry to say it, but we spend most of our lives inside the imagined. How does this relate to Master Chuang? Many of his stories show how different behaviour is when the illusions are removed. When he wife dies he beats a drum and sings because of his deep knowledge that 'Chuang' and 'Chuang's wife' are flowerings of the same field (to use an Alan Watts metaphor). The field remains. In the same way, when my dog died my other dog sniffed around the corpse and decided he was dead ... and then pretty much carried on. A dog's sense of 'self' and 'time' is more elemental, more accurate. But because we live in language and concept rather than in direct experience, we find it hard to beat a drum and sing when things die.

[Taoist Texts]

drumming and singing parable

 

 a good example how Watts and his lot of western taoists totally misread the real ones. In this particular case the whole meaning of the parable is that Chuang's sings and drums for a very specific purpose, which has nothing to do with anything the westerners can even imagine.

Namely he does that to scare his wife's ghost away. It is a chinese custom the westerners have no clue about; so they have to make up some ridiculous new-agee explanations for his singing.

[Taomeow]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

drumming and singing parable

 

 a good example how Watts and his lot of western taoists totally misread the real ones. In this particular case the whole meaning of the parable is that Chuang's sings and drums for a very specific purpose, which has nothing to do with anything the westerners can even imagine.

Namely he does that to scare his wife's ghost away. It is a chinese custom the westerners have no clue about; so they have to make up some ridiculous new-agee explanations for his singing.

 

Didn't find your interpretation in the link posted either though, and was mighty surprised to read it.  Far as I know, the Chinese custom "the westerners have no clue about" is not to scare a loved one's ghost away but, on the contrary, to guide it home should the person die away from the native abode.  There was (and still exists in some parts, at least, to my knowledge, in Taiwan) a whole profession of ghost guides tasked with going to, e.g., battle grounds after the war, collecting all the ghosts of the fallen soldiers, lining them up and marching them home.  A couple of my Chinese friends witnessed such processions in their early years (and, being young, were somewhat freaked out, while older people actually paid the ghost guide to perform the task.) 

 

There was also a really superb 1999 Chinese movie, The Road Home (incidentally the first role of Zhang Ziyi of the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon fame) where, when the protagonist dies in his old age, his wife insists that the coffin be carried to their native remote village on foot all the way (long and difficult) in order for her beloved husband's ghost to remember the road home and get there safely.  

 

What you probably mean is that there is indeed a tradition of chasing unwanted ghosts (gui) away by various means, including making loud noises, but it's a different situation.  Far as I've been able to discern, Zhuangzi is indeed waxing philosophical in this episode rather than trying to shoo his wife's ghost away.   

Edited January 14 by Taomeow

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

not to scare a loved one's ghost away but, on the contrary, to guide it home

very good;) yes thats true. to their own new home, separate from the living

/Early Daoist Scriptures By Stephen R. Bokenkamp, Peter Nickerson/

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Zhuangzi is indeed waxing philosophical in this episode rather than trying to shoo his wife's ghost away.  

 "When Zhuangzi's wife died, Huizi went to condole with him, and, finding him squatted on the ground, drumming on the basin, and singing"  

 I am sure you wondered why he was doing it squatted as opposed to sitting normally? Good question, most readers just skip over that part. Because 箕踞 jījù [sit on the floor with one's legs spread apart and stretched out] is a very specific posture according to the chinese body-language. It is both insulting to the observer and shameful for the sitter. Yet in wizardry it is used to ward off and to dominate evil ghosts as in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanwu_(god)

Btw, since you mentioned that famous wuxia film there is another   wuxia classic Hero (2002). it contains a famous (for the classically educated chinese) instance of this posture: when the attempt at the emperors life fails and the assassin is killed, in the final act of defiance he dies assuming this posture, as recorded by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sima_Qian

[Taomeow]

15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

very good;) yes thats true. to their own new home, separate from the living

/Early Daoist Scriptures By Stephen R. Bokenkamp, Peter Nickerson/

 

 

I guess both are true -- indeed, in many cases the living preferred to avoid the dead, except for professionals, usually taoist or buddhist, who handled them as needed. 

 

15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 "When Zhuangzi's wife died, Huizi went to condole with him, and, finding him squatted on the ground, drumming on the basin, and singing"  

 I am sure you wondered why he was doing it squatted as opposed to sitting normally? Good question, most readers just skip over that part. Because 箕踞 jījù [sit on the floor with one's legs spread apart and stretched out] is a very specific posture according to the chinese body-language. It is both insulting to the observer and shameful for the sitter. Yet in wizardry it is used to ward off and to dominate evil ghosts as in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanwu_(god)

 

  

As someone who squats habitually and with ease (a lifelong habit), I doubt that "sit on the floor with one's legs spread apart and stretched out" equals "squatting."  Methinks it's two different poses.  Many Asians routinely perform various chores in the squatting position which is comfortable and stable if you're used to it, without meaning disrespect to anyone.  

 

 

and even

 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

hey, where did you get that pic of me as a youngster doing my homework?

 

[Dao of Rob]

In my reading there is nothing more at odds with the spirit and practice of daoist philosophy and tradition than sitting around 'proving' to one another that a culturally specific practice is the 'real' daoism and everything else is a false version. Global versions of Christianity don't 'get' ancient cultural practices around Galilee, western Buddhists don't 'get' the small city-state structures and traditions of what we now call India and Vietnames zen buddhists (with whom I've practised) have their own take on Bodhidharma. The person trying to prove they have the 'right' version of any of these is the person making Chuang laugh. There are many English versions of the opening lines of the dao de jing ... and none of them say that one person, or one cultural practice owns the true meaning of the way. In fact, they all say the opposite

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

As someone who squats habitually and with ease (a lifelong habit), I doubt that "sit on the floor with one's legs spread apart and stretched out" equals "squatting."  Methinks it's two different poses

exactly, very good: two different. The original says Chuang sits like this