Personal Values inform How we live

[dwai]

Personal Values inform How we live. What are your personal values? Why? It will be interesting to see how the bums respond to these. Are there any that have been missed?

[liminal_luke]

Tough love?  That's a difficult one to decipher.  For me, if an action is truly loving than I'm all for it; the toughness or softness aspect is secondary.  Yesterday my partner asked me if he could have his therapy session online rather than go in person.  He likes to avoid social interaction and didn't want to deal with the anxiety of being outside, taking the bus, etc.  I thought it would ultimately be better for him to face his fears and get out of the apartment -- even though that would be hard -- so I said no to the online option.  Tough love.  And yet I'd hesitate to check the box saying tough love is one of my values.  Why?  Because I associate the phrase "tough love" with hardasses who use the concept as a bully club.  Sometimes people use the word "love" as a permission slip for bad behavior.  Then again, maybe I'm just missing personal experience with truly loving toughies.

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Tough love?  That's a difficult one to decipher.  For me, if an action is truly loving than I'm all for it; the toughness or softness aspect is secondary.  Yesterday my partner asked me if he could have his therapy session online rather than go in person.  He likes to avoid social interaction and didn't want to deal with the anxiety of being outside, taking the bus, etc.  I thought it would ultimately be better for him to face his fears and get out of the apartment -- even though that would be hard -- so I said no to the online option.  Tough love.  And yet I'd hesitate to check the box saying tough love is one of my values.  Why?  Because I associate the phrase "tough love" with hardasses who use the concept as a bully club.  Sometimes people use the word "love" as a permission slip for bad behavior.  Then again, maybe I'm just missing personal experience with truly loving toughies.

I kept it ambiguous on purpose. It's not a trick question - it means different things to different people. The objective of this post is not to judge but as a means to inquire /help in self-inquiry about our values. I went through a similar exercise recently and found it quite illuminating. I look at tough love like you do yourself, FWIW. 

[Ajay0]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Personal Values inform How we live. What are your personal values? Why? It will be interesting to see how the bums respond to these. Are there any that have been missed?

 

I had a nihilist phase in my life as a teenager and youth, and so there were times when I had doubts about the relevance of values and virtues and whether they were mere mental abstractions designed to create some artificial semblance of meaning in an essentially meaningless universe.

 

My confusions and despair were set aside slowly and steadily after meeting enlightened sages and spending valuable time with them, along with study of Buddhism and eastern philosophy.

 

Gradually I intellectually understood the state of enlightenment, and that all spiritual exercises were meant to achieve this state through expansion of consciousness, which includes virtuous conduct as well.

 

I had posted a thread of a female enlightened master named Rajini Menon who had attained enlightenment through virtuous conduct.

 

 

 

The Buddha had also emphasized ethical behavior and conduct in the form of right speech, livelihood and behavior as vital practices for attaining enlightenment or Buddhahood.

 

 

 

 

For these reasons I am interested in the op's theme, and would be glad and grateful to get any insights if possible. 

[Nungali]

I would add

 

Appreciation .

 

I have found that physically grounding appreciation in 'offerings'  is a healthy psychological practice .  Not so much in any 'empty'  act of offering but realisation of one's benefits  and being truly grateful , potentiates the rituals of offering  .

[thelerner]

Those are things I strive for, with mixed success.  

I try to view the values as coins.  Like Generosity has Thankfulness/Appreciation as the complimentary side.  One should lead to other, they're entwined.

Kindness has patience on the other side.  Without patience I walk past times I could be kind but with patience and awareness I have the opportunity to be kind.

Courage comes from strength.  Being strong, competent, confident gives me a better chance at displaying courage than if I lack those things. 

 

 

[Taomeow]

I marked the first five, the rest is not applicable because "individual over collective" and "collective over individual" are phrases from my past that spelled brainwashing -- in reality, it would depend on who the "collective" are and what they're up to.  I have a friend, e.g., who is an exemplary host -- if she throws a party, she cooks up a delicious storm and arranges everything as perfectly as possible, but she won't let anyone help with anything -- and her explanation is as blunt as can be: "I hate people meddling in my kitchen!"  If she invites a bunch of friends over and someone suggests a potluck she acts positively insulted -- "I'm not stingy enough to allow a potluck in my house!"  Is her behavior individualistic or collectivist??  Go figure.

 

"Tough love" was addressed by @liminal_luke to my satisfaction.  I can only add that in most cases it's a parental problem, but once the kids have grown up, I feel grateful for not having to deal with any disciplining of anyone.  Of course when an extraordinarily inquisitive and entrepreneurial 3-year-old stuck a bobby pin in an outlet (the European 220v at that), getting away with only a minor electrical burn on his fingers plus short-circuiting the apartment, I had to find some "tough love" in me to make sure he understands and remembers the cause-effect crime-punishment dynamics lest he does it again (he was already planning to, due to his sister's encouragement -- "I really liked those pretty blue stars you made fly out of the wall, could you make them again?"  "Sure!")    

 

"Order and rules" have their place in life where/when their absence would result in potentially hurting self or others.  Wouldn't count them as my personal values though, anymore than wearing seasonal clothes or observing rules of engagement in CMA -- it's more about common sense.  "Go with the flow" is in the same category.  And yes, common sense is a personal value of mine. 

[liminal_luke]

Here's a values question.  Say you run a restaurant -- do you let customers make culinary choices you deem untasty?  I was on the other side of this issue at a local cafe a few years ago when I asked for a coffee with milk.  Seemed like a fairly pedestrian request but I was turned down.  Turns out that milk obliterates a person's ability to taste the special "notes" in coffee, a foodie crime the proprietors refused to let their ill-informed patrons commit.  There's a pizza place in Portland that's very specific about allowed toppings.  You can have the combinations they've specified or get your pizza somewhere else.  In general, I'm opposed to this kind of gustatory tough love.  Seems to me that an eater's sense of agency is at least as important as the food.  That said, I get the impulse.  When I wear a chef's hat for friends, I want them to have a good experience and not mess things up with the wrong salad dressing, no salt, or what have you.  Good thing I don't own a cafe or nobody would be getting their soy milk.  

[thelerner]

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Here's a values question.  Say you run a restaurant -- do you let customers make culinary choices you deem untasty? 

I'd say yes, you have to honor an individual's taste plus you're also in it for the money.

 

I'd add that it's good to suggest a better way and allow customization.  With great coffee comes great responsibility.  Serve it (and recommend it) plain and also let the person add the milk and amount they desire.  

[Nungali]

On 08/10/2023 at 8:03 AM, liminal_luke said:

Here's a values question.  Say you run a restaurant -- do you let customers make culinary choices you deem untasty?  I was on the other side of this issue at a local cafe a few years ago when I asked for a coffee with milk.  Seemed like a fairly pedestrian request but I was turned down.  Turns out that milk obliterates a person's ability to taste the special "notes" in coffee, a foodie crime the proprietors refused to let their ill-informed patrons commit.  There's a pizza place in Portland that's very specific about allowed toppings.  You can have the combinations they've specified or get your pizza somewhere else.  In general, I'm opposed to this kind of gustatory tough love.  Seems to me that an eater's sense of agency is at least as important as the food.  That said, I get the impulse.  When I wear a chef's hat for friends, I want them to have a good experience and not mess things up with the wrong salad dressing, no salt, or what have you.  Good thing I don't own a cafe or nobody would be getting their soy milk.  

 

In my work as a chef / cook , yes , we  ( me and boss ) do let people ruin our food .....

 

but then we mock and diss them behind their back      

 

I offer you this wonderful little experience  ;   Film catering , 100s for lunch , my crazy boss decides one day to offer a full ' sushi feast ' . We spent ages  ( a whole team of about 7 ) making all sorts of beautifully decorated , innovative ,  fantastic  Japanese style dishes . It looked rather fantastic . As usual, off to the side , for those that are not 'adventurous' there is a 'roast table '  ; a huge lump of something that my boss is standing behind waiting to carve off bits for people , a  a huge tub of mashed potato , another of gravy and some  green veg on the side .

 

"Here they come ! "  ... a minor stampede as 'off set' are coming through first . One of them is a rigger ; big fat guy , got tools strapped all over his huge belt that he still wearing , he approaches the Sushi table ; " Wot's that stuff ?"

 

Me : " Sushi ."

 

Rigger ;  " Wot's that ? "

 

Me;  "  Raw fish , some cooked or smoked , rice, seaweed, pickles and stuff . "  he shrugs with careless approval , makes a grunting 'semi - appreciative'  noise and starts hacking into my 'sushi sculpture' and stacking it up on his plate .  I look over to my boss and he is  .  Then he takes his plate over to the roast table and holds it out under my bosses nose .... what ? Is there something wrong with it ? No, he points at the roast . So my boss carves off a few slices and tries to fit it on the side of his crammed plate . Guy is still there thrusting the plate at him , so he puts more and more slices on , piling it up until the guy grunts in satisfaction , then he moves along , scoops huge spoons of mash potato all over the plate and then drenches all of it in gravy ! 

 

 me and boss are     

 

Then he grabs about half a loaf of buttered bread slices , goes to a table , hits emergency release on belt and throws that on the table , sits down and scoops his plate  (now) mess up with the bread slices and stuffs them down his gob .   Assorted sushi , roast beef , mash and gravy sandwiches  ! 

 

    

 

 

 

[dwai]

Thanks all for sharing. I agree with the views shared. While there are many circumstantial influences on what is more important to us at different times, are there any values that are constant? Do we always consider some values that are foundational to how we choose to live our lives?