My summary of bhagavad gita

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

51 minutes ago, Ajay0 said:

This is the reason why racial, religious, nationalistic, ideological and linguistic identities have a history of violence and cruelty associated with them which continues in the present day due to lack of Self-knowledge.

I agree and support this. The problem however, is that if some ethnicities adopts a more peacefull and tolerant perspective, while others do not, they can be outcompetet by the more «egoic» one.

[Sahaja]

While I respect and find great value in the stories in this book, I also feel a bit of a rationalization in it for the caste system from the priest or royals perspective. Telling the sudras (and others) you don’t need to drop everything and become an ascetic to find God - Just do your job with detachment from its fruits. While detachment  is a wonderful and powerful concept, placing such an emphasis on doing your duty in a caste milieu  feels a little self serving to me. Perhaps they felt pressure from the sramanic religions (e.g. Buddhists and Jains,etc) that emphasized these more ascetic approaches and there was concern for maintaining the social order, I don’t know. Unfortunately using religious precepts to maintain order in society is a pretty common historical pattern certainly not limited to this instance.

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, mat said:

I agree and support this. The problem however, is that if some ethnicities adopts a more peacefull and tolerant perspective, while others do not, they can be outcompetet by the more «egoic» one.

 

I very much appreciate what you wrote here.  It is absolutely true.  And.  It is vitally important.  Some things are worth fighting for.  Most consider fighting for those who cannot defend themselves against the tryannt who rapes, muders and steals to be justified.  But.  It is also justified to fight for those who will not fight to defend themselves.

 

Why?  Why is it justified to fight for those who will not fight?  Aren't they choosing to to take a stand against violence of any sort?  Don't they have a right to choose to die for this noble pursuit?

 

The reason is:  These extreme pacifists are precious souls; vessels of a unique wisdom which can only be attained via their extreme pacifism.  Recognizing their value, and the mechanism that produces it, comes from a complete understanding which includes the "ego", so-called lower self, and does not abandon it.  While, simultaneously, recognizing that there is tremendous value in the denial of the "ego" by those extreme pacifists, the precious souls that need to be protected.

 

This is not an easy concept for some.  For some it comes easily.  I hope that I'm being clear.  Both ideals, the unitary perspective, and the dual ( mutiplicity ) perspective need to be held in the mind simultaneously.  This is a complete understanding.  And yes, it is inherently dual.  For some, it is discord, a source of cognitive dissonance, for me, it feels perfectly natural.  It's like music.  Harmony.  Chocolate and Peanut Butter.  It's a partnership.  The two are opposing ideals, but they need each other to survive.  This sympathetic relationship is reflected everywhere in the natural world and in science.

 

So.

 

The extreme pacifist absolutely needs it's partner, a guardian, which is quite literally watching its back, and perhaps, will trade its life for their's. 

 

At the very least, the minimum required is to have a "spotter" on duty so that while the pacifist is in their "trance", they can be aroused from their oblivion ( the unitary perception ) in order to flee to safety, assuming safety exists. 

 

These "spotters" are the ones who can see and appreciate the dual perspecitive both in general and in particular.  Zooming out, and zooming in.  Above, below, left, right, inner, and outer.  They can see the extreme pacifist as an individual, even though the enlightened, precious soul will deny it.  These "spotters" value them as individuals.  This is natural for them.  Just as it is natural for the enlightened masters to deny it to the point of discouraging the "spotters" from doing what needs to be done, which, in this case, is dual-perception. 

 

The enlightened discourage this dual perception, and train people in methods to escape it forevver, even though this dual perception is actively protecting them.  But their denial is for the good, because it is a vehicle for vast amounts of valuble wisdom...  As long as it (the denial) is protected by those who do not, and will not, ever deny it, to the point of sacrificing their lives.

 

This sacrifice is what happens when a soul knowingly maintains the dual perspective, agreed?  It just depends on what it means to be "alive". And that determines whether it is a sacrifice or reward. 

 

Both are valuable, both are necessary.  Neither should be neglected.

 

This is complete understanding.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Daniel

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Sahaja said:

While I respect and find great value in the stories in this book, I also feel a bit of a rationalization in it for the caste system from the priest or royals perspective. Telling the sudras (and others) you don’t need to drop everything and become an ascetic to find God - Just do your job with detachment from its fruits. While detachment  is a wonderful and powerful concept, placing such an emphasis on doing your duty in a caste milieu  feels a little self serving to me. Perhaps they felt pressure from the sramanic religions (e.g. Buddhists and Jains,etc) that emphasized these more ascetic approaches and there was concern for maintaining the social order, I don’t know. Unfortunately using religious precepts to maintain order in society is a pretty common historical pattern certainly not limited to this instance.

Your understanding needs further refinement imho

 

The Gita is a manual for living life according to one's Svadharma. And it outlines different paths meant for different temperaments. The critical thing to remember is that the varna system (which you call caste) was not (during the Mahabharata period) a static social striation like it is made out to be today. It was based on aptitude. 

 

The varnashrama dharma is the bulwark of Sanatana dharma (Hinduism) - it doesn't prescribe asceticism. It relies on what is called the Four Purusharthas - Dharma, Artha, Kama, Moksha. Using Dharma as the guideline, live your life by becoming materially comfortable (artha) , sensory fulfillment (kama) and work towards liberation (moksha). The Varnas are what you do, the Ashramas are when you do what. The first ashrama is Brahmacharya - where one acquires knowledge (education), the second ashrama is Grihastya - where one has a family and contributes to society; the third is vanaprastha - where one retires from society into the forests (vanahprastha) for quiet contemplation and preparing for the final step of giving up the social identity entirely and becoming a renunciant (sannyasa). 

 

The Gita is meant to provide different ways of living this lifestyle based on mental qualities. And provides guidance on what one should do to uphold dharma - both socially as well as individually. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by dwai

[dwai]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:09 AM, Taoist Texts said:

oh i understand:

you think that pointing that  'killing own family is bad',

A} brings  a worse karma than actually 'killing your family' as preached in whatever scriptures.

B}  worse karma than preaching the ' 'killing of own family'.

 

i see. thanks.

You can take something out of context to make a strawman argument or try to understand things properly. Based on my interactions with you in the past, you are not very well-versed in these things. Let me know if I can help educate you on this subject (I think I helped clear up your misconceptions about how well you know Sanskrit a few moons back). 

[dwai]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:59 AM, old3bob said:

and what is the purpose of the Ego and all of creation for that matter?  Could everyone just pass go and collect enlightenment?

Not only that, they already are enlightened. 

[old3bob]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Nungali]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:40 PM, Daniel said:

 

What is the problem?  You brought an analogy, I disagreed for very good reason.  You've tried to prove me wrong, couldn't do it, and now you want me to defer to you?  Why?  Why should I defer?

 

You started this exchange with me, not vice versa.

 

 

Take a powder Daniel .   The mistake in your communication was explained to you pages back .... but you just cant let it go , can you.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Sahaja said:

While I respect and find great value in the stories in this book, I also feel a bit of a rationalization in it for the caste system from the priest or royals perspective. Telling the sudras (and others) you don’t need to drop everything and become an ascetic to find God - Just do your job with detachment from its fruits. While detachment  is a wonderful and powerful concept, placing such an emphasis on doing your duty in a caste milieu  feels a little self serving to me. Perhaps they felt pressure from the sramanic religions (e.g. Buddhists and Jains,etc) that emphasized these more ascetic approaches and there was concern for maintaining the social order, I don’t know. Unfortunately using religious precepts to maintain order in society is a pretty common historical pattern certainly not limited to this instance.

 

It reminds me of a Christian 'ideal'  ;   if you 'keep your head down and work hard and obey  ( dont rise up, dont revolt, ) , dont worry, even if you are oppressed  , as you will receive justice in heaven .... now, go build my palace !

 

yeah right .... .

 

Duty in caste to fight against one's extended family   ?    Yet the 'pre-loaded instinct' to defend and protect family is what  survival depended on .... otherwise we would have  wiped out each other long ago .

 

Its actually what's called 'the soldiers duty '  ....   you are supposed to be an orderly 'robot of the state' ... its just a 'natural part' of how we work our  'human mess' .

 

'Warriors' have to 'put a lot aside'    to be able to indulge in human slaughter  .

Edited October 13, 2023 by Nungali

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

You cant be virtous/benevolent/generous without wealth/power/influence/strength. Or rather, there is nothing noble about non-violence, unless you are capable of violence. Fighting for your cause/tribe, winning and showing your defeated nemesis mercy, however, is admirable.

 

When it comes to ego and a tribal identity, i dont see anything inherintley bad in that. On the contrary, it brings people together, provides community, identity, culture… No doubt tribal conflicts have caused great evils. But in my corner of the world, a strong national identity has made us stronger, more trusting and willing to help each other. To be fair though, i probally live in what has historically been one of the worlds most homogeneus regions.

 

As @Daniel said, there are meny level to identity, and you can zoom in and out.

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

"It" or Self is already enlightened, but souls (as in billions of us incarnated in the earth realm)  are still evolving except for 2 of soul's non-evolving aspects.  Btw, Advaita Vedanta has some similar takes as some forms of Buddhism.  (which and as you very well know Dwai is not the only take in the great and profound vastness of Hinduism) 

There is no evolution of souls - all is appearance only. But whatever the divine wants to amuse itself with is what is.  

[old3bob]

.

Edited October 19, 2023 by old3bob

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Let me know if I can help educate you on this subject

of course you can, please go ahead

[dwai]

Arjuna was not a mere solider - he was a prince, and hence was responsible for laying down/upholding justice in his domain (along with his brothers). Btw those who know the context of the Gita (Mahabharata) know every attempt to broker peace was made - but rejected by the kauravas (duryodhana). The kauravas represent a weak state ruled by egotists and the blind (literally, and also by their filial piety, loyalty, love for their offspring) such that the most heinous crimes were not considered condemnable. Great warriors whose glory and valor spread far and wide, were unable to speak up against the tyranny of duryodhana as they were protocol bound to not oppose the royal throne. 
 

it is in this backdrop that Krishna asked Arjuna to fight with dispassion - to do his duty as a warrior. Those who opted to side with adharma were responsible for their consequences. 

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course you can, please go ahead

Please read my posts carefully  

[Taoist Texts]

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

Please read my posts carefully  

i have

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

it is in this backdrop that Krishna asked Arjuna to fight with dispassion - to do his duty as a warrior. 

unfortunately you left out a slight detail: what good came out of it?

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i have

unfortunately you left out a slight detail: what good came out of it?

A victory of dharma over adharma. 

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

A victory of dharma over adharma. 

Unfortunately you seem to be grudging the details constantly.  

 Please educate me how the contemporary humans became more happy after the victory concretely?  Less disease, less suffering, longer lives, less children mortality, cleaner water, better food? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report (please substantiate with direct quotes)

Edited October 14, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Unfortunately you seem to be grudging the details constantly.  

 Please educate me how the contemporary humans became more happy after the victory concretely?  Less disease, less suffering, longer lives, less children mortality, cleaner water, better food? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report (please substantiate with direct quotes)

What time span are you considering? The Mahabharata happened 5000+ years ago. It was also the beginning of the Kali yuga.  

[Taoist Texts]

36 minutes ago, dwai said:

What time span are you considering? The Mahabharata happened 5000+ years ago. It was also the beginning of the Kali yuga.  

i am certain you are not deflecting, so any time span. What was any tangible beneficial result ever of the good Pandavas killing their evil cousins  Kauravas as prompted by  "the god of protection, compassion, tenderness, and love'? An expert like you can sure give a straight answer.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am certain you are not deflecting, so any time span. What was any tangible beneficial result ever of the good Pandavas killing their evil cousins  Kauravas as prompted by  "the god of protection, compassion, tenderness, and love'? An expert like you can sure give a straight answer.

I dont think we are getting any further. It is a story, and it has great depth. Let me reverse the question here: what does good, virtue, correct behavior, mean to you?

[Taoist Texts]

31 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

It is a story, and it has great depth.

what is your point exactly?

32 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

what does good, virtue, correct behavior, mean to you?

not killing nephews  for power goes a long way in that department if you ask me

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

what is your point exactly?

not killing nephews  for power goes a long way in that department if you ask me

That it contains symbolism, metaphors, is not black and white and is filled with philosophy. But if you would prefer to be killed by your nephew and abandoning your people, then… well, then i dont even now what to say.  

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am certain you are not deflecting, so any time span. What was any tangible beneficial result ever of the good Pandavas killing their evil cousins  Kauravas as prompted by  "the god of protection, compassion, tenderness, and love'? An expert like you can sure give a straight answer.

The people of the land lived peacefully for generations. What do you expect should have happened?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what is your point exactly?

not killing nephews  for power goes a long way in that department if you ask me

Who was whose nephew?