Whats your purpose/meaning or life?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

But If we sumarise some of the thread, it seems the concept of eudomnia/perfecting our nature/doing our duty/being us self are themes we agree upon?

 

I am not sure this question is possible to answer, but it could be an interresting to take this one step further. Is there a purpose/function/higher meaning by achieving this? Lets illustrate: a hammer is used to hit nails. A good hammer does this effectivley. Lets say the nails purpose was to be used to hang up a piece of art. But is there a purpose of the art piece? (Speaking metaphoically ofc.)

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, mat said:

But If we sumarise some of the thread, it seems the concept of eudomnia/perfecting our nature/doing our duty/being us self are themes we agree upon?

 

I am not sure this question is possible to answer, but it could be an interresting to take this one step further. Is there a purpose/function/higher meaning by achieving this? Lets illustrate: a hammer is used to hit nails. A good hammer does this effectivley. Lets say the nails purpose was to be used to hang up a piece of art. But is there a purpose of the art piece? (Speaking metaphoically ofc.)

 

I am probably in the minority but to me the meaning of life is super duper simple.

 

The most basic drive and instinct an organism has is survival.

 

The point of life is to survive.

 

So, we have a problem.

 

The universe is winding down.

 

Stars are dying out. 

 

Eventually no new stars will be born.

 

Eventually everything will grow cold and dark.

 

The heat death of the universe, and then eventually black holes even will evaporate, and protons themselves will decay.

 

So life has a problem.

 

Right now we are too stupid to fix this problem.

 

We can't even begin to fathom how entropy can be reversed.

 

So we have to become more intelligent.

 

Not just a little bit more intelligent, but a lot bit.

 

Intelligence so advanced it would be godlike by our current standards.

 

We will convert this entire universe into a computer to figure out the answer to that question, how can we reverse entropy.

 

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@kakapso i think that perspective (darwinism, gathering knowledge in order to deal with entropy) is perfectly valid.

I do differ on some aspects tho. That we are wired to reproduce, doesnt automatically make it a virtue or a goal, so to speak. But by all means, reproduction is an essential part of life, and it do provide value. But i think im more on the «qaulity over qauntity» camp. This far, i reason that human (and plant and animal) flourishing is what i value the most, and therefor my personal answer to the «meaning of life.»

Also, when we are talking about the universe, dying stars etc, that is so far out of our controll, understanding, capabilities and time that i dont bother thinking about it. It is not like we are going to do surgery to a dying star.

 

But maybe im just overthinking. I mean, what is the purpose of a flower?  Meaningless question, isnt it.

 

edit: does a higher purpose need a belief in God in order to exist?

 

Edit 2: adding a qoute here from a book i am about to start reading. «Etikk» by Spinoza. This is how it opens:

 

 After experience had taught me that all the things which regularly occur in ordinary life are empty and futile, and I saw that all the things which were the cause or object of my fear had nothing of good or bad in themselves, except insofar as [my] mind was moved by them, I resolved at last to try to find out whether there was anything which would be the true good, capable of communicating itself, and which alone would affect the mind, all others being rejected—whether there was something which, once found and acquired, would continuously give me the greatest joy, to eternity (TdIE 1).

 

Edit 3: im only on page 8, foreword by Ragnar Næss, but it seems very relevant: 

 

He concludes that what can ensure truth, freedom, and happiness is a true starting point that can serve as the basis for further reflection. For "method is nothing but reflective knowledge, or an idea of an idea... a good method is the one that shows how thought can be guided in accordance with the standard provided by true idea."

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by mat

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali

I havent dug up your old posts, but i think i have a better understanding of true will. We, or anything, are not seperate from nature, right. Nature creates and destroys and transforms. The will is who we truly are, a being, and individuated part of an superorganism, and if we are free from external influences we will be/express ourselves fully and authentically. Just like how a flower flourishes if its left alone in its natural enviorment. What do you think?

 

Quote

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Nungali]

I felt I had to respond to this  first, before I go on to the next bit  ( as it gives some background to my take on things and hopefully some relevance to my next post :

 

18 hours ago, kakapo said:

 

I am probably in the minority but to me the meaning of life is super duper simple.

 

I and many others agree , but in my experience those others have been the indigenous  ... that have not had their culture totally ruined .

 

Quote

 

The most basic drive and instinct an organism has is survival.

 

The point of life is to survive.

 

I'd say  it's  'point'  is to 'continue' .   That can be via the 'sacrifice' of individual survival ... actually the the 'survival of life'  might well depend on  the  transience of it's  ' units' .

 

Quote

 

So, we have a problem.

 

We do ... being units of life .

 

 

Quote

 

The universe is winding down.

 

Maybe the Universe is a  really BIG 'life unit '  ?

 

 

Quote

 

Stars are dying out. 

 

and being born  . 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Eventually no new stars will be born.

 

Eventually everything will grow cold and dark.

 

The heat death of the universe, and then eventually black holes even will evaporate, and protons themselves will decay.

 

Well, like I say about social media and IT ... at least I will be dead before I  could see the horrible results .

 

But then again  ;       https://www.noemamag.com/life-need-not-ever-end/

 

Quote

 

So life has a problem.

 

Well .... eveeeeeeentualy .   Meanwhile  ...... 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Right now we are too stupid to fix this problem.

 

Thats like saying I am too stupid to make myself immortal .  We can be sure of nothing ... for all I know  , when I die, thats it .. zippo ... finata !    I still remain grateful and appreciative that I had a chance to experience life , and for the life I had .

 

Its a dream Bro .... when that big snake , asleep underground , dreaming this all up , wakes up ... then the Dream finished ... everything gone .... you and me too !   

 

 

 

Quote

 

We can't even begin to fathom how entropy can be reversed.

 

So we have to become more intelligent.

 

Yes. I can give you another 100 reasons why as well .

 

 

Quote

 

Not just a little bit more intelligent, but a lot bit.

 

Intelligence so advanced it would be godlike by our current standards.

 

Now, hang on a minute  

 

 

 

Quote

 

We will convert this entire universe into a computer to figure out the answer to that question, how can we reverse entropy.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe it is already doing that ...  but I think it has little to with us ......  teenie little bio-units that we are .

Edited October 14, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@Nungali

I havent dug up your old posts, but i think i have a better understanding of true will. We, or anything, are not seperate from nature, right.

 

Right . Except many of us  are unique animals that somehow challenges nature, fights against it  , believes he has 'dominance over' it ... so that 'separates us ' from nature .

 

Quote

 

 

Nature creates and destroys and transforms. The will is who we truly are, a being, and individuated part of an superorganism, and if we are free from external influences we will be/express ourselves fully and authentically.

 

Yes and no . For me the above depends on  one's concept of 'who we truly are '  .  We are 'here' , perhaps we chose to come here , for this life time and place . That means interaction with the environment ( and family, tribe, culture, etc ) . The constitution of the self , is generated from several levels and components  and the result of this is self , and this self and its  environment creates  the 'personna' .  When we relate (for example ) , you are not getting 'Pure Nungali' you are also conversing with a set of programs and conditionings  ( some, thankfully, adjusted  by 'self' ).

 

So  is 'who we truly are'   self  or 'personna ' .   If we choose 'self' alone , then we have to identify  what that is  ASIDE from our programmings and conditionings  and ' accidents of incarnation ' ( which seem to include a certain amount of 'memory loss' )  and look at that .

 

Some use a natal chart or other forms of astrology for this .

 

 

 

Quote

Just like how a flower flourishes if its left alone in its natural enviorment. What do you think?

 

 

In a nurturing natural environment ,  yes.   ( and I mean 'nurturing' specifically, not just as in 'good' or healthy ....  the whole range of it's meanings . ) 

 

Eg . as I said previous about the indigenous , in their natural state ;  dont got much ... but happy  , satisfied, appreciative , healthy,  glowing , proud, standing tall, egalitarian,  slave to no one  ...... and that is how Captain Cook described them when he stopped  for ship repairs at 'Cooktown' and spent some time with them . They know who they are and why they are here and what their purpose is . For some, all that is embedded in their name/s.

 

Unfortunately , they where not 'left alone'  .

 

But we are more complicated , a child whose  Khvarenh  it is to be a  engineer , might feel totally 'naturally'  at home the first time she walks into  an engineering shop .

 

I like to keep it simple myself .....break it down to its basics , so it can apply in all sorts of situations ... especially tribal .

 

Everyone loves the  story teller  !

 

( just ask chat GP     ....      )

 

 

.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Nungali

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali

So the will can be said to be (at least partly) discovered (uncovered?) by inspiration (genius, muse), self knowledge, finding/making your imediate enviorment more harmonious and acting in accordance with your… what to call it… your deep felt sense of values? Synchronisity probally also deserves a mention/

 

And you seemed to be very ‘insisiting’ on useing the term nurturing, can you expand some on that?

 

edit: i dont think you need to expand on nurturing, cambridge dictionary makes it clear:

 

Quote

to take care of, feed, and protectsomeone or something, especiallyyoung children or plants, and help him, her, or it to develop

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Daniel]

20 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

The will is who we truly are

 

"will" is the outer dimension of a specific cognitive function.  It's name is "rahtzohn".  It is the outer dimension of "Keser/Keter" which means "crown".  I propose it is part of the whole in spite of its popularity and the misconception that it is supreme and nothing else matters.  The reason it is idealized and idolized is because it is simple.  Just like a light switch, it is on or off.  Just like a crown, it is on or off.  And if everything else is ignored, then, a person can (falsely) justify acting on their desires to do anything they want, to whomever they want, at any time.  Many people love this idea.  It makes them feel like a god.

 

"will" is, naturally, one of the most powerful motivating forces in the human psyche.  But it is not "who we truly are" in total.  Well, excluding the rare extreme psychopath / sociopath.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Daniel

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

"will" is the outer dimension of a specific cognitive function.  It's name is "rahtzohn".  It is the outer dimension of "Keser/Keter" which means "crown".  I propose it is part of the whole in spite of its popularity and the misconception that it is supreme and nothing else matters.  The reason it is idealized and idolized is because it is simple.  Just like a light switch, it is on or off.  Just like a crown, it is on or off.  And if everything else is ignored, then, a person can (falsely) justify acting on their desires to do anything they want, to whomever they want, at any time.  Many people love this idea.  It makes them feel like a god.

 

"will" is, naturally, one of the most powerful motivating forces in the human psyche.  But it is not "who we truly are" in total.  Well, excluding the rare extreme psychopath / sociopath.

 

Hmm… i know that there are many different philosophical understanding of the will. My understanding, currently, is that will is «growing in to your potential and nature,» and not inherintley psychopathic, unless you are a psychopath.

 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm… i know that there are many different philosophical understanding of the will. My understanding, currently, is that will is «growing in to your potential and nature,» and not inherintley psychopathic, unless you are a psychopath.

 

 

First, when you use the words "True Will", that is coming from a specific philosophy.  That philosophy positions it, "True-Will" as cerebral, but that is incomplete.  If one researches the details of the philosophy, its origin, history, and evolution through time, it's clear to those who know, it is lacking.  Although the adherents to that philosophy never appreciate hearing it, and few admit it.  In a lot of ways, it matches the identifier "broken lineage".  But, it's not intentional.  Those who engage in it have no clue, TBH, even though the information is there if they choose to explore it.

 

That said:  Please see my quote below:  The qualifier that produces the psychopath behavior is at the begining.  And it is a universal qualification.  Those almost never occur in real life.  They are the far extreme, but it's important to be aware of it.

 

And if everything else is ignored, then, a person can (falsely) justify acting on their desires to do anything they want, to whomever they want, at any time.  Many people love this idea.  It makes them feel like a god.

 

"will" is, naturally, one of the most powerful motivating forces in the human psyche.  But it is not "who we truly are" in total.  Well, excluding the rare extreme psychopath / sociopath.

 

"will" is an archetype.  Understanding it, like so much of human behavior can be accomplished by examining it in the extreme cases, then moderating it.  The mechanism which produces the varying outcomes of these archetypes is most clearly evident in the extreme cases.  For example, in my country, not naming names, if I want to analyze the archetype of the "corrrupt politician", my first stop is the most corrupt politican I can find.  Then once I have deconstructed their behavior, the motivating factors for them, the causes and effects, then I can take that extreme example and look for those elements as they exist in the spectrum of what is considered "common".

 

The reason this works is because a very effective model of understanding and predicting human behavior is by using "vessels".  In the extreme cases, like the absolutley corrupt poitician,  using this model, there will be a vessel or vessels which are completely full consistently.  And at the same time, simultaneously, all the other vessels are completely empty.   Consistently. 

 

People like this are extremely rare.  However, in the right circumstances each and every human is capable of producing behavior which approaches, or mimics the extreme case.  If we are all, kinda-sorta, composed of the same vessels, then we are all, kinda-sorta, capable of being completely full in certain key areas and completely empty in the all the others, briefly. In a moment, or two.  Maybe for an hour.  Maybe we get triggered.  

 

But there's a problem.  As humans, we almost always get better at things, the more often we do them.  The more often we approach these extremes, the easier and more likely they are to occur.

 

Once these vessels are linked up with "profile" consisting of a few specific vessels which are full, while all the otthers are empty, guess what?  I can look for phenomena, circumstances which encourage and "select-for" personality types strongly inclined in towards that profile.  Now I have something really useful.  I can predict the cricumstances that produce the "corrupt politician".  I can prevent them proactively.  And.  I can also look at the currrent situation in America and understand why almost ALL our politicians are corrupt.  Not all the time, and not to the same degree.  But it's still highly useful "intel" as they say.

 

And all of that comes from this method of being aware of the extreme, analyzing it fully.  Then balancing that against a spectrum of possible combinations.  It's predictive, proactive, and can be preventive if applied towards morals ethics and all manner of decision making.

 

I'll give a personal example: 

 

For me.  Personally.  In a leadership postion I fail.  Everytime.  I do OK in small groups if needed.  One-to-one, I'm an excellent tutor or advisor.  I'm also an excellent worker-bee, or a lone wolf.  But put me in a leadership role over a group?  Lets put it this way,  I've never been successful.  Sadly my own blindspot, my own affection for myself prohibits an objective assessment of what precisely is going on there.  Even if I was extremely humble, I would not be able to self-assess in neutrality.  But I'm confident there's something inside me that's full and all the others which normmally moderate it are completely empty in those leadership rolees, in that time-space-circumstances.

 

Here's a picture of "will" gone wrong.  But this is not actually just "will", it's both the inner and outer dimensions of "will" which have become corrupted and encouraged to ignore anything else.  Specifically, "wisdom" and "understanding" ( two other archetypes of cognitive function ) are being completely flushed into oblivion.  They are empty.  There's others, but those two if, "wisdom" and "understanding" were not empty and were blending with "will", moderating it, then a lot of harm could have beeen prevented.

 

In this case, by my judgement, "Will" and "Glory", those two are full.  Everything else was empty.  In the philosophy which uses the term True-Will, I think they use a different word "victory" instead of glory.  "Glory" is a much better word in english once it is understood.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Daniel

[whocoulditbe?]

I can tell you I'm addicted to coming up with all sorts of personal projects to dedicate my time, energy, and love to, and I think this tendency is due to a lack of confidence in any overarching purpose in my life. Every time I've formulated and really believed in some definite worldy "meaning of life," it has resulted in harm and regret. This probably wasn't as much of a problem during periods when everyone's purpose was firmly assigned to them from above, but in the current age, it's better to have a modus operandi in life than a fixed plan, especially if you happen to be a lonely, drifting person. In practice that takes the form of virtue ethics: be decent and kind, improve yourself, develop an appreciation for beautiful things, etc., all the while seeing the purpose of all this as lying outside of life, far beyond this or any other world.

[whocoulditbe?]

@NaturaNaturans I just skimmed the thread and noticed you're also arguing for virtue ethics throughout. Do you have any thoughts on the idea that modern rights-based ethics is basically the inversion of virtue ethics? I've come across some interesting writing on this in the context of Confucianism. (link) There's also care ethics, a form of virtue ethics developed by feminists in reaction to the patriarchal nature they percevied in rights-based liberalism. The increasing focus on human rights really worries me because it seems to lack any defined form of accountability when rights fail, and leaves positive ethical activity out of the picture.

 

Edit: Spinoza's Ethics is also good stuff, and nice username!

Edited October 15, 2023 by whocoulditbe?

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@Nungali

So the will can be said to be (at least partly) discovered (uncovered?) by inspiration (genius, muse), self knowledge, finding/making your imediate enviorment more harmonious and acting in accordance with your… what to call it… your deep felt sense of values? Synchronisity probally also deserves a mention/

 

Yes ... 'unusual indicators'  ... even genetics  ( ancestors ) .  Things 'falling into place' .

 

One essential practice of the working magician is to keep a ritual diary  ... and I suggest another diary of events . When reading back on these sometimes it can be  enlightening  .... a eureka moment can happen . Its often hard to make sens of things and string them together in a bigger meaning , when we are 'in the thick of it all' .

 

 

 

As far as helping children  find their way , or if we can turn these observations back on the self , be aware of what fascinates and attracts them , where their natural abilities lie , support ( within reason , considering age ) their own abilities to find direction in supporting their interests and what guides them , dont project your own hopes and fears onto them .

 

As an Indian comedian once told me ;  " I tell my mother and father I DO NOT WANT TO be a doctor ... its not what I WANT ... its what they want ..... I very happy to be a dentist  ....   I said to my parents ... look , you have    FIVE SONS !   Surely 4 doctors already in the family is enough !  "

 

 

 

 

And you seemed to be very ‘insisiting’ on useing the term nurturing, can you expand some on that?

 

edit: i dont think you need to expand on nurturing, cambridge dictionary makes it clear:

 

I will anyway ... its also  about not being excessive , not being over protective .

 

Eg .   Plants need 3 basic types of nutrient ,   N based ones give vigorous growth .... you pump them with  N and not a enough P, they grow great .... tall  .... then get pale and keel over .  Too  much P and not enough N , they are 'strong' but stunted and dont produce much 'leaf matter'  ( which converts the energy )

 

Its about assisting the organism to develop to its best potential ... not hampering it by 'overcare '  ... a thing many children seem to suffer from ..... an excess or a lack of one of the other  . 

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm… i know that there are many different philosophical understanding of the will. My understanding, currently, is that will is «growing in to your potential and nature,» and not inherintley psychopathic, unless you are a psychopath.

 

 

That's is the problem with that term ... especially when it devolves to just  'will'  ... which is a totally different context .

 

That's why I like the term Khvarenah  ... but that term comes with a problem too - its exotic and people think its only specific to a certain culture or religion and not describing an essential  part of the makeup of us all .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

First, when you use the words "True Will", that is coming from a specific philosophy.  That philosophy positions it, "True-Will" as cerebral, but that is incomplete. 

 

It does indeed come from  a specific philosophy  ... but within that I fail to see how it can be called 'cerebral " , perhaps  you could demonstrate this .... from your expertise IN THAT PHILOSOPHY  ???????

 

 

If one researches the details of the philosophy, its origin, history, and evolution through time, it's clear to those who know, it is lacking.  Although the adherents to that philosophy never appreciate hearing it, and few admit it. 

 

In case you had not realized .... THAT is what we are doing right now and what I have been doing for some time ... right here on DBs .

 

 

 

In a lot of ways, it matches the identifier "broken lineage".  But, it's not intentional.  Those who engage in it have no clue, TBH, even though the information is there if they choose to explore it.

 

Well, since I have 'no clue '  please enlighten these poor readers here Daniel .

 

 

That said:  Please see my quote below:  The qualifier that produces the psychopath behavior is at the begining.  And it is a universal qualification.  Those almost never occur in real life.  They are the far extreme, but it's important to be aware of it.

 

And if everything else is ignored, then, a person can (falsely) justify acting on their desires to do anything they want, to whomever they want, at any time.  Many people love this idea.  It makes them feel like a god.

 

Oh dear .... acting on your DESIRES  is not an expression of your true will  ... thats an expression of your DESIRES .

Quote

"will" is, naturally, one of the most powerful motivating forces in the human psyche.  But it is not "who we truly are" in total.  Well, excluding the rare extreme psychopath / sociopath.

 

 

Yes, I have included this in some detail ... of course our will is not who we 'truly' are  (whatever that means ? )   ....   Since you are ignoring what I write ... I supposed you missed all that , I even questioned it in  a few posts  , regarding 'essential self '  / 'Personna '

 

"will" is an archetype.  Understanding it, like so much of human behavior can be accomplished by examining it in the extreme cases, then moderating it.  The mechanism which produces the varying outcomes of these archetypes is most clearly evident in the extreme cases.  For example, in my country, not naming names, if I want to analyze the archetype of the "corrrupt politician", my first stop is the most corrupt politican I can find.  Then once I have deconstructed their behavior, the motivating factors for them, the causes and effects, then I can take that extreme example and look for those elements as they exist in the spectrum of what is considered "common".

 

The reason this works is because a very effective model of understanding and predicting human behavior is by using "vessels".  In the extreme cases, like the absolutley corrupt poitician,  using this model, there will be a vessel or vessels which are completely full consistently.  And at the same time, simultaneously, all the other vessels are completely empty.   Consistently. 

 

People like this are extremely rare.  However, in the right circumstances each and every human is capable of producing behavior which approaches, or mimics the extreme case.  If we are all, kinda-sorta, composed of the same vessels, then we are all, kinda-sorta, capable of being completely full in certain key areas and completely empty in the all the others, briefly. In a moment, or two.  Maybe for an hour.  Maybe we get triggered.  

 

But there's a problem.  As humans, we almost always get better at things, the more often we do them.  The more often we approach these extremes, the easier and more likely they are to occur.

 

Once these vessels are linked up with "profile" consisting of a few specific vessels which are full, while all the otthers are empty, guess what?  I can look for phenomena, circumstances which encourage and "select-for" personality types strongly inclined in towards that profile.  Now I have something really useful.  I can predict the cricumstances that produce the "corrupt politician".  I can prevent them proactively.  And.  I can also look at the currrent situation in America and understand why almost ALL our politicians are corrupt.  Not all the time, and not to the same degree.  But it's still highly useful "intel" as they say.

 

And all of that comes from this method of being aware of the extreme, analyzing it fully.  Then balancing that against a spectrum of possible combinations.  It's predictive, proactive, and can be preventive if applied towards morals ethics and all manner of decision making.

 

I'll give a personal example: 

 

For me.  Personally.  In a leadership postion I fail.  Everytime.  I do OK in small groups if needed.  One-to-one, I'm an excellent tutor or advisor.  I'm also an excellent worker-bee, or a lone wolf.  But put me in a leadership role over a group?  Lets put it this way,  I've never been successful.  Sadly my own blindspot, my own affection for myself prohibits an objective assessment of what precisely is going on there.  Even if I was extremely humble, I would not be able to self-assess in neutrality.  But I'm confident there's something inside me that's full and all the others which normmally moderate it are completely empty in those leadership rolees, in that time-space-circumstances.

 

Here's a picture of "will" gone wrong.  But this is not actually just "will", it's both the inner and outer dimensions of "will" which have become corrupted and encouraged to ignore anything else.  Specifically, "wisdom" and "understanding" ( two other archetypes of cognitive function ) are being completely flushed into oblivion.  They are empty.  There's others, but those two if, "wisdom" and "understanding" were not empty and were blending with "will", moderating it, then a lot of harm could have beeen prevented.

 

In this case, by my judgement, "Will" and "Glory", those two are full.  Everything else was empty.  In the philosophy which uses the term True-Will, I think they use a different word "victory" instead of glory.  "Glory" is a much better word in english once it is understood.

 

 

 

 

That  ^  is all a bout the 'mundane will'   ... or even 'free will '  .

 

Ones True Will to be , for example ,   a sculptor who wants to show the  triumph of love in society  ..... need not also be a psychopath or be involved in insurrection .

Edited October 14, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, whocoulditbe? said:

I can tell you I'm addicted to coming up with all sorts of personal projects to dedicate my time, energy, and love to, and I think this tendency is due to a lack of confidence in any overarching purpose in my life. Every time I've formulated and really believed in some definite worldy "meaning of life," it has resulted in harm and regret. This probably wasn't as much of a problem during periods when everyone's purpose was firmly assigned to them from above, but in the current age, it's better to have a modus operandi in life than a fixed plan, especially if you happen to be a lonely, drifting person. In practice that takes the form of virtue ethics: be decent and kind, improve yourself, develop an appreciation for beautiful things, etc., all the while seeing the purpose of all this as lying outside of life, far beyond this or any other world.

 

Have you read the Sufi story ; ' Fatima  the Ropemaker '  ?

 

[whocoulditbe?]

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Have you read the Sufi story ; ' Fatima  the Ropemaker '  ?

No, but thanks for the reference. All I found from searching was a video of a story being told. I'm curious about why you called it Sufi.

[Nungali]

Its a story with a basic 'folk theme' that appears in  a few guises .  A version appeared of it  in Idres Shah book of Sufi short stories .

 

It covers that dynamic of life where ; various frustrating paths have been followed , that seemingly end in failure and despair. yet knowledge and skill , seemingly unrelated, are learned along the way, and she maintains her ' virtue'  . At a crucial moment , in dire circumstances , our heroine realises  her particular skill sets and knowledge  can come together to supply a solution . And from that her purpose is discovered  and her original dream fulfilled ... although not in the way she had first imagined .

 

[ I have a full 'fleshed out' version of the story , if you would like to read it . ]

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

12 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

@NaturaNaturans I just skimmed the thread and noticed you're also arguing for virtue ethics throughout. Do you have any thoughts on the idea that modern rights-based ethics is basically the inversion of virtue ethics? I've come across some interesting writing on this in the context of Confucianism. (link) There's also care ethics, a form of virtue ethics developed by feminists in reaction to the patriarchal nature they percevied in rights-based liberalism. The increasing focus on human rights really worries me because it seems to lack any defined form of accountability when rights fail, and leaves positive ethical activity out of the picture.

 

Edit: Spinoza's Ethics is also good stuff, and nice username!

You know what, that question and the article was crazy interesting. I sat down for a good hour trying to give thoughtfull response, but in the end, I deleted it all because it was simply too big and my knowledge too limited. I think the Orient, continental Europe and the Anglo-sphere live in conceptually very different realities, and that it affects how we view the state, morals, and ideals. I would agree with you on "the idea that modern rights-based ethics is basically the inversion of virtue ethics." 

 

Both the organization of the state and the concepts of rights stem from views on "the state of nature," so we could have a discussion on that if you'd like.

 

_________________________________________________

Brainfart: maybe the function of life  is a better question then the meaning of life?

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

15 hours ago, whocoulditbe? said:

In practice that takes the form of virtue ethics: be decent and kind, improve yourself, develop an appreciation for beautiful things, etc., all the while seeing the purpose of all this as lying outside of life, far beyond this or any other world.

This also strikes me as interesting. 
 

Elaborating: If there is no meaning to life, no «father,» im honestly not sure i can deal with it. The only possible alternative would be as you describe; aiming upwards, nurturing myself and my enviorment and appreciate the beauty.

Edited October 15, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

If there is no meaning to life, no «father,» im honestly not sure i can deal with it.

 

I believe there is a Father, in case that is any comfort to you.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

10 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

I believe there is a Father, in case that is any comfort to you.

It kind of does

 

 

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

…: If there is no meaning to life, no «father,» im honestly not sure i can deal with it. …

 

12 minutes ago, Daniel said:

I believe there is a Father, in case that is any comfort to you.

I too believe there is a Father, in case that is any comfort to you. 
 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

This is going to seem random, but i want to share it. What led to a moment that felt like a real, spiritual unity, an experience of the divine, peace… you Get the point, was two thing.

 

This verse from isha upanishad:

O Sun, sole traveler of the Heavens, controller of all, Surya, son of Prajapati, remove thy rays and gather up thy burning light. I behold thy glorious form; I am he, the Purusha within thee. 
(16)

 

And Sol invictus:

 

 

[old3bob]

 

(reposted)

"This beautiful passage is from the beginning of the eighth chapter of Chandogya Upanishad. The meaning is quite clear.

 

8.1.1 This body is the city of Brahman. Within it is an abode in the shape of a lotus [i.e., the heart], and within that there is a small space. One must search within this space and earnestly desire to know what is there.

8.1.2 If the disciples ask, ‘This body is the city of Brahman; within it is an abode in the shape of a lotus [i.e., the heart], and within that there is a small space; what is it that one must search for within this space, and what should one earnestly desire to know?’—the teacher should reply:

8.1.3 [The teacher replies:] ‘The space in the heart is as big as the space outside. Heaven and earth are both within it, so also fire and air, the sun and the moon, lightning and the stars. Everything exists within that space in the embodied self—whatever it has or does not have’.

8.1.4 If the disciples ask the teacher, ‘If in this body [brahmapura] are all this, all things, and all desires, is there anything left behind when the body gets old or perishes?’—

8.1.5 —in reply the teacher will say: ‘The body may decay due to old age, but the space within [i.e., brahmapura] never decays. Nor does it perish with the death of the body. This is the real abode of Brahman. All our desires are concentrated in it. It is the Self—free from all sins as well as from old age, death, bereavement, hunger, and thirst. It is the cause of love of Truth and the cause of dedication to Truth. If a person strictly follows whatever the ruler of the country commands, he may then get as a reward some land, or even an estate’.

8.1.6 Everything perishes, whether it is something you have acquired through hard work in this world or it is a place in the other world which you have acquired through meritorious deeds. Those who leave this world without knowing the Self and the Truths which they should know are not free, no matter where they go. But those who leave this world after knowing the Self and the Truths which they should know are free, no matter where they are."