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[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[Ajay0]

4 hours ago, Summer said:

I eat a lot of meat. Generally cant stand vegetables. I seem to function better on meat, not only in terms of energy, will and digestion but in general.

 

Consumption of meat has been correlated to higher rates of cancer, cardiovascular diseases, alzheimers and dementia, as per scientific research.

 

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/255644#1

 

https://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/vegetarian-diet-and-cancer-risk.h31Z1591413.html#:~:text=Eating too much meat - especially,can increase your cancer risk.

 

https://www.news-medical.net/health/Alzheimers-and-Veganism.aspx#:~:text=It has been found that,of AD in these populations.

 

In my family of non-vegetarians, I am the only one who is vegetarian. I noticed that my brothers and father suffered from painful kidney stones and had operations in this regard, which I never had.

Kidney stones emerge from excess protein consumption.
 

I became vegetarian due to religious and ethical reasons. Vegetarianism helped me to get rid of my comical pot belly and excess fat and become lean and trim. I have similarly seen other vegetarians who look a decade or two younger than their actual age.
 

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Summer said:

I eat a lot of meat. Generally cant stand vegetables. I seem to function better on meat, not only in terms of energy, will and digestion but in general.

 

Now I know that a lot of traditions emphasize the "Do no harm" approach and that (on the really extreme end) some go as far as removing all stimulants like garlic and onion for optimal nervous function and higher consciousness. Wondering what you lot do? Why? Have you tried the alternatives? Is there something to this? Also I mean in terms of changes to your practice and or meditation as well as usual mental states.

 

Had an odd thought about it the other day and I keep returning to it so obviously something is speaking.

 

I was an admittedly not completely strict vegetarian for a good number of years.  Mostly due to the influence of my ex-wife and her cohorts.  But for the last 10 years at least I have been eating meat - in fact since I went low carb to deal with my weight and blood sugar I have eaten a lot of meat.  My feeling about it is - and this is completely non-scientific and unproven - that a meat diet is far more healthy provided its not junk food meat.  My reason for thinking this is that I am convinced that meat contains a lot of complex molecules and substances which we need for good health.  It's not just a protein gloop - which is why meat substitutes are unattractive.  After all we evolved over millions of years to eat a mixed diet.

 

So I am fairly certain of that conclusion.  However of course, the ethical position of not wanting to harm or kill animals is to be admired.  But just because it is ethical doesn't mean it is healthy.  Also I find it hard to think that an ethical position which is so unnatural can be fundamentally true.  Not doing harm means I think, don't be cruel.  To kill an animal humanely, as a necessity, is not automatically cruel.  After all people who still live as hunter gatherers have a very respectful and spiritual link with the animals they hunt.

 

The other thing I noticed - and again this is not a scientific survey, but of the people I have known who are strict veggies/vegan - they all seem to suffer from imbalances, thyroid conditions, cancers, dementia in one case - they always seemed to think that the purity of their diets would protect them - but it didn't.  Sadly as some of them, that I knew have died of cancers and so on.

 

 

[markern]

I eat a lot of meat and the most enlightened person I have ever met suggested that I instinctively did that in order to help feel grounded because I naturally go upwards very easily and needed a downward force. I probably would be better of eating less of it if I can stay grounded in other ways. 

meat is probably more healthy than its reputation:

https://bigthink.com/health/red-meat-cancer-not-health-risk/

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[markern]

23 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

The other thing I noticed - and again this is not a scientific survey, but of the people I have known who are strict veggies/vegan - they all seem to suffer from imbalances, thyroid conditions, cancers, dementia in one case - they always seemed to think that the purity of their diets would protect them - but it didn't.  Sadly as some of them, that I knew have died of cancers and so on.

 

 

I know so many people who were vegans for years that had to start eating meat because it eventually made them unbalanced or gave them a health issue. They knew and practiced all the advice vegans usually claim will compensate for lack of meat but it didn't help. The issues they struggled with where also often quite severe and ended completely with resuming eating meat. None of them needed to eat a lot of meat though. They are usually still moderate in meat consumption compared to the average person.

I spent 5 weeks at an Ayurvedic health clinic in India where every meal was tailored perfectly according to what they thought I needed to eat. All meals where vegan. After five weeks I had lost at least 9, I think maybe 11 kg (can't remember exactly), and I was weighing 75 kg at the time. I looked like a skeleton. It did not seem like a good diet for me at all.

 

[markern]

I think Damo Mitchell says that he finds those students he has that are vegan struggle in certain phases of the alchemy process because they have a harder time building up certain energies that are required. I don't remember if he advises eating meat only for a particular phase or permanently. I think it is in one of his YouTube videos.

[liminal_luke]

I don't  have any personal testimony on the energetic front to share -- the kind of discussion the OP seems to have been hoping for -- but since when do I hold myself to a high standard?  I would question the idea that meat eating is somehow less ethical than vegetarianism.  While there's much to criticize about conventionally raised chickens, etc, I think it's possible to raise and slaughter animals in a way that is good for the environment, or at least no worse than agriculture.

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[whocoulditbe?]

IMO history shows that the human body can thrive on a wild diversity of diets, though that's partly dependent on environment, genetics and lifestyle. Becoming vegetarian just takes a but of adjusting, and it's worthwhile even on a personal level. Being able to honestly conceive of what you consume, what sustains your body, without that triggering thoughts of death and violence is a great psychological benefit.

[stirling]

What matters most about whether you eat meat or not is whether you are creating identity or karma around it. If you feel slightly guilty that living beings are dying for your sustenance, then you should think carefully about this diet choice. Precepts and practices around diet and way of life are principally about reducing created karma. 

 

I am a vegetarian of 30 years, for what it is is worth. I don't personally care what anyone else eats, and have never honestly understood why anyone else would care either. 

 

 

[EFreethought]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

The other thing I noticed - and again this is not a scientific survey, but of the people I have known who are strict veggies/vegan - they all seem to suffer from imbalances, thyroid conditions, cancers, dementia in one case - they always seemed to think that the purity of their diets would protect them - but it didn't.  Sadly as some of them, that I knew have died of cancers and so on.

 

 

 

Anecdotal, but the vegans I have known who were vegans for political/ethical/environmental reasons always seemed healthier than people who were vegans for health reasons.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, EFreethought said:

 

Anecdotal, but the vegans I have known who were vegans for political/ethical/environmental reasons always seemed healthier than people who were vegans for health reasons.

 

interesting

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Summer said:

This is exactly why I said no pissing contest. Its very easy to do that with meat or veg talking because some people think it makes a better/worse things. I don't care what you do or why. I am only interested in what works as best for practices.

 

Ok, ok...I'll do my pissing elsewhere.  But I think it's unrealistic to expect all the other pissers to do likewise.

[Mark Foote]

I think about this a lot.

I was ova-lacto vegetarian for a few years, then vegan for a few more.  Had some bad dreams, figured it was time for a change and resumed eggs and sardines.  Gradually back to meat twice a day.

Had a life-changing experience as I transitioned back from eggs and sardines.  Reminded me of Gautama the Buddha, who was barely able to fish himself out of the river, and decided to resume milk and sustenance.  Then he sat six years and experienced "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", and saw the dependent causation that was his enlightenment.

I only experienced "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) inhalation and exhalation", zazen that got up and walked to the door.  No enlightenment, but it nearly ruined my life, as I waited for zazen to do everything.  And I still couldn't sit the lotus worth beans.

 

I always thought that maybe someday I'd turn a corner, and go back to at least ova-lacto vegetarianism, but it's actually more complicated for me to find satisfaction at that.  And I haven't turned a corner that tells me to give up the meat.

I think of Gautama, advising his followers to accept what they were given, even if it was meat.  And telling them to think of it as a parent eating their children.

 

I think of Kobun Chino Otogawa, saying "vegetables scream too, you just don't hear them."

 

 

[Ajay0]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:49 PM, Summer said:

Thats great. Good for you. I do see a lot of this evangelical thinking with people who make the switch though (especially vegans) and its a bit condescending.

 

 I only put my personal facts over here. What people eat is their individual choice, and I only provided data for informed decision-making.

 

If it comes to starvation and eating non-vegetarian food for a person, I would whole-heartedly go with the latter.

 

Reverence and gratitude to nature or the Divine would reduce any karmic impurities of the act.

 

The Hindu/Sikh practice of Jhatka, killing the animal or bird in a single stroke so as to minimize physical pain or suffering is also a good practice in this regard.

 

Quote

 

 You could have reigned in your overeating whilst still meat based, if you wanted.

 

 

 Meat-based dishes are more delicious than vegetarian food, imho. The tendency for most people is to keep eating even beyond their needs and hunger. Hence there is austerity and discipline involved in control of the palate and taste buds. 

 

The discipline of the tongue is also correlated to the discipline of the sex organs, and thus those focussed on celibacy would thereby try to discipline their palate as well. 

 

Quote

 

If you read I asked about what benefits or changes people had seen in terms of cultivation.

 

 

My perception is that eating fresh vegetarian food on a constant basis improves the quality of meditation.

 

I have noticed that fasting or eating fruits alone as a meal brings about a tangible leap in the quality of meditation during the day for the better.

 

I have also met advanced meditators who were totally vegetarian or ate non-vegetarian food sparsely. And this has increased my conviction in this regard.

 

But I have also met an enlightened sage who ate meat as well and enjoyed such dishes, and drank beer and alcohol too (prior to his enlightenment).

 

 However he was someone who was able to discipline himself to live constantly in a state of total awareness or mindfulness in the midst of his wordly duties. And this is not an easy task. 

 

His mind was very strong and focused in this regard, and this resulted in his eventual enlightenment. He was also in his twenties, and blessed with good physical and mental fitness and vitality at that time.

 

If you have cultivated such a heroic mind, I don't think meat or beer would be a problem for spiritual advancement.

[old3bob]

 

Wild Bison meat is said to be free of many of the contaminates/pathogens that can be found in much of the store bought Beef.  (which comes from who knows where?!)  But even bison meat sold in stores is not always of the best of quality which I can attest to, besides it high price.   Also some other wild game like deer and elk sometimes get serious diseases which can kill them,  (wasting disease for one)  so a person is at great health risk if they are not sure about such things and eat wild game.

Edited October 25, 2023 by old3bob

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[liminal_luke]

I don't think he's active on the board anymore, but @Spotless had a lot to say about the effects of a vegetarian diet on meditation.  Those interested might want to look up those posts.

[MBZ]

26 minutes ago, Summer said:

Lots of animals get killed during the farming process it seems. They call them "pests". Kept away to protect the crops etc.. I thought that was an interesting observation.

 

https://plantbasednews.org/culture/billions-animals-killed-growing-crops/

 

Really, the thinking of this thread inspiration has changed now. Now I'm wondering if we aren't trapped in some strange hell where everything and everyone is suffering. Many wont admit this. The Bardo thread, for example, is linked to this. If the place and its creator were benevolent why make it so hard to leave? Why so many different religions that all fight? Why create an obviously psychotic species like man? Why must we create some kind of death (animal or plant) to live?

The good old Archon lol

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[Apech]

53 minutes ago, Summer said:

Lots of animals get killed during the farming process it seems. They call them "pests". Kept away to protect the crops etc.. I thought that was an interesting observation.

 

https://plantbasednews.org/culture/billions-animals-killed-growing-crops/

 

Really, the thinking of this thread inspiration has changed now. Now I'm wondering if we aren't trapped in some strange hell where everything and everyone is suffering. Many wont admit this. The Bardo thread, for example, is linked to this. If the place and its creator were benevolent why make it so hard to leave? Why so many different religions that all fight? Why create an obviously psychotic species like man? Why must we create some kind of death (animal or plant) to live?

 

Well Buddhism says it directly - this is samsara the world driven by desire, ignorance and hatred - except it is illusory (although I hate using that word).  Christianity says we live in a fallen world - cast out of the garden - and we suffer because of it.  Whatever God's purpose or plan is - we are not given to know but through suffering, like Jesus on the cross, we come closer to his love.

 

 

[Summer]

Edited January 28 by Summer

[old3bob]

19 hours ago, Summer said:

Lots of animals get killed during the farming process it seems. They call them "pests". Kept away to protect the crops etc.. I thought that was an interesting observation.

 

https://plantbasednews.org/culture/billions-animals-killed-growing-crops/

 

Really, the thinking of this thread inspiration has changed now. Now I'm wondering if we aren't trapped in some strange hell where everything and everyone is suffering. Many wont admit this. The Bardo thread, for example, is linked to this. If the place and its creator were benevolent why make it so hard to leave? Why so many different religions that all fight? Why create an obviously psychotic species like man? Why must we create some kind of death (animal or plant) to live?

 

One idea is one being put to an absolute test of good and evil before knowing absolute truth that is beyond good and evil,  for who can be absolutely trusted unless put to an absolute test and then passes it?   But what about most of humanity that doesn't often measure up well to an absolute type of test?  Anyway besides there being a very great amount to consider in eastern  religions in Christianity Jesus is the good Shepard while most of the rest of us are his "sheep" who are dealing with wolves but hopefully evolving sheep who will also become lions for and empowered by the Holy Spirit...I know that doesn't cover everything by a long shot but is a shot at it. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by old3bob