Ba Gua as taught by the Bruce Frantzis Energy Arts system, anyone have experience?

[Tethys]

I have an opportunity to take a two-day workshop that introduces the basics of Ba Gua as both a fighting form and for meditation purposes (walking the circle, basic palm changes). It will be taught by a senior student of Bruce Frantzis, who teaches in California and has written a bunch of books about Taoism and is supposedly a lineage holder in the Water Method of Taoist meditation and other things.

 

So,

 

1. Does anyone here do Ba Gua? What experiences have you had with the meditative side of it? I have heard you can get quite far with it in regards to clearing out your energy body of blocks.

 

2. How effective is this as a fighting method? I've heard all sorts of grand things, such as that you can fight eight people at once! I'm sure that's after practicing for years and becoming quite advanced, but I am wondering how Ba Gua compares to other fighting techniques.

 

 

Thank you so much.

[shontonga]

I have an opportunity to take a two-day workshop that introduces the basics of Ba Gua as both a fighting form and for meditation purposes (walking the circle, basic palm changes).

 

1. Does anyone here do Ba Gua? What experiences have you had with the meditative side of it? I have heard you can get quite far with it in regards to clearing out your energy body of blocks.

 

 

 

BAGUA!

 

IT'S BEAUTIFUL!

Spinning!

Spirals within spirals within spirals!!!

Fluid and solid and Fun!!!

Love it!

 

never got past very very beginning though.

sprained an ankle

(2 years or so, still bothers me)

and forced myself to drop it

I always have wanted to learn it and hope to return to it sometime!

was studying it to better understand tai chi.

 

Whatever style your interested in

make sure when you practice you pay ATTENTION to yer body

Your knees and alignments and all!

 

and have fun!

 

Shon

 

Still will hold the poses stationary

and (attempt) play with mud walking, great stuff!

love the Speed!

Edited May 17, 2008 by shontonga

[Pero]

Buddy teaches Bagua, he was also a student of BKF for 10 or 15 or something like that years.

[EagerMind]

I've always wanted to take Ba Gua, I think it's an awesome art! The first time I actually heard about it was while reading BKF's book " The Power of Internal Martial Arts: Combat Secrets of Ba Gua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I", this is an amazing book and the book that turned me onto all internal arts!

 

I'd love to study with BKF but all of his classes are way to expensive and I've heard some bad things about him but I'm not sure how true they are.

Edited May 18, 2008 by EagerMind

[Wun Yuen Gong]

So what have your heard?

[EagerMind]

So what have your heard?

 

Not from anyone I personally know but from multiple people off of internet forums (which I always take with a grain of salt) that he has a huge ego and always talks about himself. I normally wouldn't believe in sh*t talking but I've heard it multiple times so that definitely influences me, I'm obviously still not sure though as I've never met him.

 

It's like using Amazon.com feedback, you read all the comments about a book that people left to get a feel for it.

[de_paradise]

If you have a good teacher in your area so you can practise consistantly, you may get somewhere.

 

They say you should have mastered already an easier martial art before bothering with Bagua.

 

I was crazy for Bagua (Gao style of Luo lineage) at one point but my knees could not take the strain--twisting in the pre-heaven palm changes, and the wide stanced post-heaven forms.

 

If you are looking for energetic ways to advance spiritually, then why waste time with fighting forms? If you are looking for a viable fighting system, then its said bagua will take about 4 years of applied training. And some lineages are more martial than others.

[Tethys]

Thank you for the responses! I'm encouraged, and I'll definitely do the workshop. They are opening up the ba gua class in my area to new students for the first time in two years, so I will have the opportunity for weekly group practice as well as instruction.

 

I'm 22 and I don't have any knee problems, so I think I will be ok, but I will be VERY careful about alignment. I have heard that ba gua is a good segue into meditation because you can build internal power, and most importantly you can "fight" inner demons and blocks using the techniques learned. I hope it lives up to its claims.

 

I currently do Dragon & Tiger qi qong, also taught by a student of a student of BK Frantzis (I can confirm that he's a . . . shall we say . . . VERY confident person, but he appears to know what he's talking about). I find that I need to go for a jog or otherwise move around and get warmed up before I can concentrate on anything slow and requiring concentration, is that normal? I have a lot of energy, so I was thinking ba gua would be cool because of the constant motion.

 

Also, the idea of a form based on I Ching principles, so that you can instantly adapt to any change and manifest the eight energies at the drop of a hat, all very very appealing. But I think I'd have to practice hours a day, for years, to get to anywhere near the beginning of that level.

[JessOBrien]

Hi Tethys,

 

I've practices Kumar's Ba Gua for a while now, it's got some very good aspects.

 

If you have a chance to learn from Frank, go for it. There's no one who's worked harder or longer at it than he has.

 

There are a few aspects about Kumar's system that stand out:

 

1 emphasis on safety. The stepping drills are done softly and gently for a long time. It's boring, but it helps create a foundation. When people get too many complex forms too quickly, they can blow themselves out quite easily. I know I did. Later I had to spend a lot of time on the walking to fix the damage and strengthen my foundation.

 

2 simple forms, but depth to them. He doesn't have a huge series of sets like some styles, but each palm change can be trained in depth. We spent a long time on Single palm change before moving on to the rest. It's fine to learn as fast as you can, but when it comes to practice, take it step by step and really build up one at a time. keep the others in reserve for later.

 

3 rou shou and combat applications are very intuitive and utilitarian. Again, if you get a chance to work with Frank he will be able to instruct you in these aspects. They are top notch, but you'll need friends to spend the hours needed to make it fun and creative. It starts off frustrating and difficult, and only practice can transform that into something much more fulfilling. From the first day you'll be learning applications, and the sooner you start drilling them the sooner they'll be useful. The first movement of the form is the first application, it's only a question of how much you work on it.

 

4 meditative aspects. Most ba gua teachers reserve the meditative aspects for a while down the road. That's good because you need to unify your body and energy first. But Kumar's system jumps into it from the start. Learn it, work on it, but don't worry about it too much. You'll need to get the body together first. But down the road the meditative training is the key to all the fighting and I Ching stuff. Ba gua's meditation work can drastically accelerate your fighting skill, once you are ready to incorporate it. As you mentioned, clearing out blocked areas of the mind and body allow you to move much faster and in a more relaxed way. Stored unconscious tension prevents your force from landing effectively, and makes your actions stiff and weak. The meditation and chi practices make you much more fluid and alive. To me this is one of the keys to making Ba Gua work in a two person situation. As for fighting 8 people, that's hype, 1 is hard enough. It's nice to have 8 as a concept to keep in mind, but it's more of a principle than something you'll actually try to do.

 

5 Basic training. Every system of Ba Gua teaches circle walking, so in a way you just have to get your foot in the door somewhere. Ba Gua is very individualistic, so you'll likely need to search to find the right teacher for you to go to the edge with. In the meantime, pick up everything you can from the teachers you can find, and train it intelligently. Build up your foundation in walking and Single change, and whatever else you come across so that when you find your "real" teacher you'll be ready and able to get right into it. I know I've met and trained with dozens of teachers, but very few were the right ones for me. This is because that's how Dong Hai Quan created it, each system suits different people better than others. None are right for everyone.

 

6 I Ching, energy channels, yi, chi, bian hua, etc.... Let's just say there's plenty to work on here.

 

Good luck in your quest. As mentioned before, working on alignments is the main priority so you don't hurt yourself, many of us learned that the hard way. I think if you work on it you'll find Ba Gua a very enjoyable study. There's some good folks out there to train with for sure.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

[wenwu]

hi there

 

i thought i would throw my 2 cents in

 

I have been studying Baguazhang for 3 years now with BKF's teacher's younger knug fu brother

 

I is a wonderful art, so comfortable to do.

 

the meditaive aspects, all baguazhang is really a meditation, the twisting helps internal health and the walking help build up strength as well as internal strength

 

the rou shou practice is great, alot of sensitivity there, impossible to do when you are tense.

 

really an excellent art

 

i could go on but i am at work hahaha

[JessOBrien]

Hi Wen Wu,

 

Cool! You are lucky to be learning from Master Zhu, he is well known for being a great teacher. The videos of him in action are terrific. I hope you train hard and learn a lot!

 

What is the principle or concept you are working on the most at the moment?

 

For myself it's trying to quiet inside while I walk, and let some of the crazy thoughts and images slow down as I circle. It's hard, but sometimes it works pretty well and I get into a very quiet, sensitive state. It's nice.

 

Take care,

 

Jess O'Brien

[Tethys]

Jess O Brian,

 

I was SHOCKED that you mentioned Frank Allen, because that's who I am taking the class with! Wow. I never expected to encounter that on this board, you are doing exactly what I want to do! Hehe. Thank you so much for replying, your insights are really helpful.

 

That's one of the things that attracted me, no 64 different palm changes, but a lot of depth in the ones learned.

 

So have you had significant sparring experience? I found this funny video of BKF on youtube demonstrating ba gua fighting applications:

 

[JessOBrien]

Hi Tethys,

 

I've been lucky enough to train with Frank a number of times. He has dedicated his life to Chinese martial arts, and is the top student of BK Frantzis's Ba Gua system. He knows a lot about Ba Gua and he knows how to use it well.

 

The clip of Kumar in action is an old one, probably going on 20 years now. However I've been the dummy for his applications on many occasions. He hits very hard, fast and with much precision. When he engages it's a furious swarm of palm and forearm strikes that transform into locks and breaks if you happen to block any of the shots. If you don't, it almost always ends with a spine or neck shot.

 

His skill at using Ba Gua for fighting is very high. I've been beaten by many martial artists but very few of them deliver like he does at close range. Although past his fighting prime, he has shown me many techniques that are incredibly adaptive and useful for a wide range of situations. Most important are the concentration and intention practices while walking the circle. These help train your awareness to stay very strong during the chaos of a sparring match. This allows you to move much "faster" than you normally would simply because you are more awake than the opponent. You also are able to do more intuitive techniques that seem to come out of nowhere, because your mind isn't slowing you down. All internal martial arts train this kind of awareness, but Ba Gua gives you a particularly twisty, spinning way of moving that is very effective.

 

I have had a lot of full contact and other types of sparring experience, but never with particularly accomplished fighters, so I don't really take it past the "fun" stage. It's a valuable practice but only a small portion of what Chinese martial arts has to offer. Ba Gua training in my opinion is very applicable to sparring.

 

Hope you enjoy training with Frank and get a lot out of it. If you take what you can and train it for a while, I think you'll get something useful from it.

 

 

One more thing- if you are going to pursue internal martial arts you'll want to check out these events:

 

Luo Dexiu Summer 2008 Seminar Series

Gao Style Bagua, Hebei Xingyi, Chen Panling Taiji

 

Boston, MA: July 23-30

Contact: Buddy Tripp ([email protected] or 508-524-3308)

 

Luo De Xiu will be give you some things to train that will quickly transform your abilities, and more importantly you'll instantly see what all these internal martial arts are "supposed" to look and feel like. There's no better person to work with on the planet than Luo De Xiu in my opinion.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O

Edited May 23, 2008 by JessOBrien