What would be wisest to do?

[Sleepy Bluejay]

Let's have a fun debate!

 

If you were to discover how to cultivate just like the wuxia novels with flying sword and immortality, would you tell or teach the world or keep it a secret?

What would be the cons and pros of telling or teaching everyone immortal cultivation?

What would happen if you keep it a secret, yet keep experimenting with plants and livestock to make them "spiritual/divine"?

 

*Think of things like; the cons and pros of growing spiritual herbs and fruit, could lead to deadly byproducts for mortals, but not for cultivators and such*

 

- A sleepy but curious Bluejay.

[Indiken]

I think those secrets will be know in the future by society anyway, so the criteria to share now depends on the effects on self and others. That is if one desire or do not desire competition. If sharing has positive effect on others.

 

Also, I think it is not that one has to find secrets like some kind of treasure. They are right here. People cannot / do not want to pick it up.  

[centertime]

if you watch all kind of scifi series as i have done.. 

You have seen this:

- people using abilities wisely

-people misusing abilities. 

 

then authority can stop or cannot stop them or they become the authority.

 

-they can stay wise... or become evil after a while

-or from evil they become good.

 

Or they can forget they are immortal... (this could be the current case).

 

Selection of who is worthy or not..  is done by initiation. tests... or elders can observe candidates and judge them by behavior and decide.. 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by centertime

[thelerner]

Immortality is probably a bad thing for earth now.  We die to make room for our grandchildren.  With no death, we'd over populate.  In a few generations it might create a nasty  violent dystopia. 

 

Anyhow if one had the secret to immortality and were wise,  I assume they'd live long, keep it secret and eventually tiring of life and allow yourself to die.  birth life death, is our shared heritage.  

[Daniel]

I would not teach it.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  I would expect the same with immortality.

[Indiken]

6 hours ago, thelerner said:

Anyhow if one had the secret to immortality and were wise,  I assume they'd live long, keep it secret and eventually tiring of life and allow yourself to die.  birth life death, is our shared heritage.  

 

If immortality is not external induced (herbs, technology, beings), then immortal most likely is wise, because he achieved immortality through self understanding.

 

When he understand self, he likely understands others, so he can determine if sharing will have positive effect and is possible.

 

Also, there is issue about keeping it secret. If one wants to live in society (friends, community, job, marriage), then people will notice that one does not age and the legal tracking (property, taxes, ids) also will show age. So, this person will have to hide legally somehow and do not have long lasting relationships or trust very selected few.

 

Or share know how, maybe secretly, to raise other people longevity. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Indiken

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Indiken said:

If immortality is not external induced (herbs, technology, beings), then immortal most likely is wise, because he achieved immortality through self understanding.

 

Or... they made a deal wiith the devil ( figuratively ).

[Sleepy Bluejay]

12 hours ago, thelerner said:

Immortality is probably a bad thing for earth now.  We die to make room for our grandchildren.  With no death, we'd over populate.  In a few generations it might create a nasty  violent dystopia. 

 

Anyhow if one had the secret to immortality and were wise,  I assume they'd live long, keep it secret and eventually tiring of life and allow yourself to die.  birth life death, is our shared heritage.  

 

Immortals in wuxia novels can be killed or die from old age, they just gain more years/centuries of life force and youth for every "Realm"(level) they reach, therefore live longer while having magical powers and super strength.

[Sleepy Bluejay]

What if farming crops with spiritual energy from the Shen dantian result in spiritual herbs, fruits, crops?

What if the byproducts can only kill mortals (diseases/illnesses)?

What if insects eat the herbs/fruits/crops and becomes "Gu bugs"?

 

if the solution to these things were that everyone cultivate immortality, would it not be best to teach/tell everyone how to do so?

it could become the beginning of a new era if done right!

Also if humans can do it, who says that aliens haven't already mastered it?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

if the solution to these things were that everyone cultivate immortality, would it not be best to teach/tell everyone how to do so?

 

The first question that I think needs to be answered is:  What is death?  Followed by:  Is death bad?

 

Perhaps a better question would be:  What if the solution to suffering were that everyone cultivate these things?  And that leads to a discussion of Buddhism and the other cultivation paths which render suffering inert.

 

Almost anyone considers suffering "bad" on a superficial basis, so that helps to skip a step.

 

In order to evaluate any of these, and anything, to be honest, is analysis of risk vs. reward.  What are the benefits vs. liabilities?  How does it help vs. how does it harm?  Or put simply:

 

"Sounds good Doc, but what are the side-effects?"

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Daniel

[Sleepy Bluejay]

What? What does that have to do with anything?

 

...Anyway, I think it would be good to teach everyone immortal cultivation because:

illnesses influenced by spiritual energy could mean that only spiritual/divine herbs/medicine could cure it, while cultivators may be immune to it since they have a refined body.

[Daniel]

21 minutes ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

What? What does that have to do with anything?

 

What does 'what' have to do with anything?

 

It seems as if there is an assumption being made that death is bad and immortality is good.  I don't think this should be assumed, I think it should be analyzed, don't you?

 

Quote

...Anyway, I think it would be good to teach everyone immortal cultivation because:

illnesses influenced by spiritual energy could mean that only spiritual/divine herbs/medicine could cure it, while cultivators may be immune to it since they have a refined body.

 

OK.  But we're not really talking about immortality?  Just longevity?

 

On 10/22/2023 at 7:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Let's have a fun debate!

 

That is what I am trying to do.  I think that a fun debate is where the topic is considered deeply from different perspectives.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Daniel

[Neirong]

@Sleepy Bluejay
You have been reading too much wuxia novels.
If you actually practice ancient arts, things will look much different.
Practical experience is always better than any theory crafting sessions.
I have met a lot of people who are into wuxia, cultivation novels, mangas, stories, but for some reason, they never understand that they can cultivate in real life. Develop abilities, internal energy and special qualities.
 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

It seems as if there is an assumption being made that death is bad and immortality is good.  I don't think this should be assumed, I think it should be analyzed, don't you?

Death only "looks bad" to the Ego because the Ego grasps to sustain itself. It's similar to parasitic larvae in your mind that try to draw attention to stay alive.
 

In reality, achieving immortality for the Ego or the body is a "fool's wish." Being stuck in an eternal prison is the same as immortality.

Genuine Immortality differs from what people typically think it is, as they are influenced by Ego desires and selfish delusions.
 

For example, consider wearing a t-shirt. Eventually, it wears out from use and washing, and you go buy yourself a new one. Would you want to wear the same t-shirt for 80 years in a row? I bet not. It's a good idea to change it once its service time is up and get a fresh new one.
 

For an Immortal cultivator, life is the same. They change bodies and get reborn, but for them, it's not a dramatic change; it's just like changing a t-shirt. For everyone else, it's a tragedy because they are getting discarded, destroyed, and replaced.

[thelerner]

12 hours ago, Indiken said:

Or share know how, maybe secretly, to raise other people longevity. 

This actually comes up.   You have- Li Ching Yuen-  a Chinese herbalist who supposedly lived 256 years, through qigong and a diet rich in herbs including goji, ginseng..  he was reputedly married 24 times had 200 descendants, yet far as I know, they're not around.  The man was real, dying in 1933 but the story becomes semi-mythic.  

 

Was his age real?  If so it seems he didn't pass it on to his wives or kids.  It certainly  a good selling point for an herb seller to claim extreme old age as part of a sale pitch.  I think Daniel Reid claimed on of his followers was a taoist who died young at 99.  He could be lying or believing the lie.  In Russia it wasn't unusual for people to claim an older age inorder to get pensions earlier.  Likewise there was at one story of a centenarian who was debunked, while very old she was the daughter of the woman claimed she was. 

[Indiken]

54 minutes ago, thelerner said:

This actually comes up.   

 

I have a book about him "The Immortal: True Accounts of the 250-Year-Old Man" by Stuart Alve Olson. If I remember correctly it is said that there were official Chinese government documents regarding his age. There is a photo of him. He looks like a normal old man. It is written in book that Li had long finger nails collection and there were some calculations done about fingernail growth rate and his age. I can't see clearly in the photo if Li has long fingernails, if he does, then the story might have more validity.

 

It is told that he was already more than 100 years when he did meet Daoist master (who was more than 500 years old), so his longevity should have come not from Daoist methods at first. Also, the methods which are presented in the book seem to be very simple (6 healing sounds, 8 brocades, microcosmic orbit) and easy to find in public.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Indiken

[Nungali]

On 23/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Let's have a fun debate!

 

If you were to discover how to cultivate just like the wuxia novels with flying sword and immortality, would you tell or teach the world or keep it a secret?

 

Secret .

 

On 23/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

What would be the cons and pros of telling or teaching everyone immortal cultivation?

 

All Cons IMO ... I dont want some other  immortal dude in on my patch with a  flying sword ... you kill him, and he just keeps coming back !

 

On 23/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

What would happen if you keep it a secret, yet keep experimenting with plants and livestock to make them "spiritual/divine"?

 

They already are .  However one can 'increase '  the spiritual aspect ' of food  . .  . that experiment has been going on for around a century now .

 

 

 

On 23/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

 

*Think of things like; the cons and pros of growing spiritual herbs and fruit, could lead to deadly byproducts for mortals, but not for cultivators and such*

 

Ha !   You  'cultivators' are  mortal .  And such food only helps and is not 'deadly' .

 

 

On 23/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

 

- A sleepy but curious Bluejay.

 

[Nungali]

On 23/10/2023 at 2:05 AM, centertime said:

if you watch all kind of scifi series as i have done.. 

You have seen this:

- people using abilities wisely

-people misusing abilities. 

 

then authority can stop or cannot stop them or they become the authority.

 

-they can stay wise... or become evil after a while

-or from evil they become good.

 

Or they can forget they are immortal... (this could be the current case).

 

Selection of who is worthy or not..  is done by initiation. tests... or elders can observe candidates and judge them by behavior and decide.. 

 

 

 

 

 

My favourite one from the  story ;  ' The Boy Who Would Become Chief .'

 

The boys are lined up along the beach , the current chief and elders are watching , one of the elders  to the boys ;  " This is the first test of the series to see who can become the future Chief  of our  tribe . "  When I say ' Go ! '  , all of you, run down the beach , dive into the surf and swim  out to the  little island and around that island and back to the beach and then run back up to me .....    GO  ! "

 

The boys run off , 'Turtle Neck ' is a good runner and hits the surf first . He is also a very good swimmer and pulls far ahead of the rest  as they round the island , but 'Green Mango' starts to catch up .  'Turtle Neck' notices this  and speeds up but he cant loose him.  But then one of the other boys at the back seems to be floundering , perhaps he has developed a cramp . ' Green Mango' turns around and goes to assist him  and swims with him until they reach the shore . he takes him up to the Elder , where 'Turtle Neck' is already standing. 'Turtle Neck' declares ;  " I won, I won  the first test ! Looks like I am going to be Chief . " 

 

But the Elder says "  YOU  won ?  "    You didnt win .....   'Green Mango ' wins the first test  ..... a good  Chief  should always be looking out for the tribe ... the whole tribe and every member of it . "

[Nungali]

 

9 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

What? What does that have to do with anything?

 

   Sleepy Bluejay  ... meet Daniel   - Daniel .....  Sleepy Bluejay .

 

9 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

 

...Anyway, I think it would be good to teach everyone immortal cultivation because:

illnesses influenced by spiritual energy could mean that only spiritual/divine herbs/medicine could cure it, while cultivators may be immune to it since they have a refined body.

 

If I understand this ;  'immortality'  gives you a  VERY long life , who knows how long ?  BUT  (apparently ) you can be 'killed' . . . so  'best' of both worlds .... sorta . 

 

I see most  herbs as 'spiritual' especially the medicinal ones .    We got super duper one's down here .... the indigenous know a LOT about them .   One example is a tree in the Queensland rain forest , and in its fruit is a  substance that can cause  cancers to nearly instantly 'react' to it  (  'foam' and/or  other effects ) , shrivel up and fall off , within a few days .  Then other agents in it cause rapid healing of the  'wound' site -  Blushwood  tree fruit .

 

" Dr Boyle said in 75 per cent of cases, the tumour disappeared and had not come back.

'There's a compound in the seed - it's a very, very complicated process to purify this compound and why it's there in the first place, we don't know," he said.

'The compound works by three ways essentially: it kills the tumour cells directly, it cuts off the blood supply and it also activates the body's own immune system to clean up the mess that's left behind."

There were no side effects, but what amazed scientists most was how fast it worked: the drug took effect within five minutes and tumours disappeared within days.

"The surprising thing for us and the thing that we don't see very often is the speed with which this occurs," Dr Boyle said.

"Usually when you treat a tumour it takes several weeks for it to resolve, but this is very, very rapid.

"There's a purpling of the area, of the tumour itself, and you see that within five minutes and you come back the next day and the tumour's black and you come back a few days later and the tumour's fallen off."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/queensland-scientists-discover-cancer-fighting-berry/5796106

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

I have a book about him "The Immortal: True Accounts of the 250-Year-Old Man" by Stuart Alve Olson. If I remember correctly it is said that there were official Chinese government documents regarding his age. There is a photo of him. He looks like a normal old man. It is written in book that Li had long finger nails collection and there were some calculations done about fingernail growth rate and his age. I can't see clearly in the photo if Li has long fingernails, if he does, then the story might have more validity.

 

It is told that he was already more than 100 years when he did meet Daoist master (who was more than 500 years old), so his longevity should have come not from Daoist methods at first. Also, the methods which are presented in the book seem to be very simple (6 healing sounds, 8 brocades, microcosmic orbit) and easy to find in public.

 

 

I was recently talking to an historian ,on a totally different matter about a man, now passed, who was  active in his 90s  and healthy  and he commented his sister was still alive and must have had the same genes  ..... " She is in her mid 90s and still surfs .... on a surfboard ."

 

 

And that isnt even  someone that is a, 'cultivator' ,  or herbalist ,  etc 

[Sleepy Bluejay]

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

What does 'what' have to do with anything?

 

It seems as if there is an assumption being made that death is bad and immortality is good.  I don't think this should be assumed, I think it should be analyzed, don't you?

I didn't mean to be rude, sorry.
I get that immortality is more of a curse than a gift. Immortality alone would be living forever but still gets old.

Immortality + eternal youth would just drive you insane.

Immortality + eternal youth + spiritual energy (mana or magical powers) is soon or later gonna be boring and torment you.

So I get where you are coming from.

 

16 hours ago, Daniel said:

OK.  But we're not really talking about immortality?  Just longevity?

However, an immortal cultivator's goal within wuxia novels is immortality and ascending to godhood/heavenly realm.
For each realm/level they reach, they gain more life force which allows them to live longer (so yeah, both longevity and immortality).

Their meaning with such long life is to understand the great Dao of all things.

 

This type of immortality is different than what you might be thinking about (like the deal with the devil thing), therefore I could not understand what that had to do with the debate that I was trying to start. 

 

 

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

I didn't mean to be rude, sorry.
I get that immortality is more of a curse than a gift. Immortality alone would be living forever but still gets old.

Immortality + eternal youth would just drive you insane.

Immortality + eternal youth + spiritual energy (mana or magical powers) is soon or later gonna be boring and torment you.

So I get where you are coming from.

 

I didn't think you were being rude.

 

Regarding literal immortality, I take it much much further than that to some very dark places.  If you and I are immortal, for *giggles* you could cut my head off, no harm done.  Now I can be in two places at once, literally.  Maybe slice my head in half?  Then I can see two places at once.  Cool, right?  Or is it gruesome?  Maybe I would feel it, maybe not, I don't know.  We haven't established that yet.

 

If we are both immortal, what is stopping you from repeatedly always and forever inflicting harm on my body?  I'm not going to die.  You wouldn't need to sleep, you wouldn't need to eat.  You could kick me in the rear, forever and ever never stopping.  That would be infinitely annoying.   Blowing myself up?  Who cares?  Hoard all the food and resources for myself?  Sure?  What's the harm?

 

Literal immortality would produce a very very strangle place to live.

 

Quote

However, an immortal cultivator's goal within wuxia novels is immortality and ascending to godhood/heavenly realm.
For each realm/level they reach, they gain more life force which allows them to live longer (so yeah, both longevity and immortality).

Their meaning with such long life is to understand the great Dao of all things.

 

I see.  I haven't read any of these novels.  So, as long as the cultivator continues to advance, they are immortal?  The advancement is sustaining them?  Is there an "end"?

 

In the novels, are there evil-cultivators and good-cultivators?  Heros and villians?  

 

Quote

This type of immortality is different than what you might be thinking about (like the deal with the devil thing), therefore I could not understand what that had to do with the debate that I was trying to start. 

 

It's just a theoretical idea.  Is it proper to assume that immortality/longevity is produced from "goodness"?  Again, I'm probing the assumptions.  Here are the two comments together:

 

On 10/23/2023 at 12:58 AM, Indiken said:

If immortality is not external induced (herbs, technology, beings), then immortal most likely is wise, because he achieved immortality through self understanding.

 

On 10/23/2023 at 4:38 AM, Daniel said:

Or... they made a deal wiith the devil ( figuratively ).

 

If you look at the first quote above, notice the words I underlined.  I think it is fair to consider both of these as positive.  It is "good" to be "wise", and it is "good" to have "self-understanding".  If so, then, the one who has extremely long life is assumed to be "good", right?  But, I think, that is an assumption that needs to be assessed.  It could be that their longevity was acheived through vampirism (consuming other humans while they are alive), which is, making a deal with the devil, for lack of better words.  Vampirism does not require wisdom, nor self-understanding, just a capability to over-ride any empathy for the other whom is considered "food".

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Daniel

[Sleepy Bluejay]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

I see.  I haven't read any of these novels.  So, as long as the cultivator continues to advance, they are immortal?  The advancement is sustaining them?  Is there an "end"?

 

In the novels, are there evil-cultivators and good-cultivators?  Heros and villians? 

The novels (web novels) can be found under the genre "Martial arts".
Yes, for an example: If the cultivator is in the 1st realm they will live for 150 years, when they reach 2nd realm they may live for 300 years etc. At some point they will reach a realm where they ascend and becomes an immortal, in the sense of that they will no longer die from old age and will be forever young and strong, but can still get killed by other cultivators.

 

The end of their journey will most likely be to become a true god that can create new realities, only to end up killing themself and enter reincarnation. Basically they level up to max, once bored they delete character and make a new one with no memories of their past life as a god.

That being said, maybe we all were gods/goddesses in one of our endless amount of past lives hehe.

 

As for heroes and villains, yes and no, it depends on the novel you are reading. However, there is demonic cultivators and righteous cultivators. Righteous cultivators are those who relies on nature and spiritual herbs to cultivate, while demonic cultivators behave like vampires and drain others energy or souls for their foundation.  

Edited October 24, 2023 by Sleepy Bluejay

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Their meaning with such long life is to understand the great Dao of all things.

 

 

I think you have it!  My vote is "Understanding the great dao" is what is typed below.

 

3 hours ago, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Righteous cultivators are those who relies on nature and spiritual herbs to cultivate, while demonic cultivators behave like vampires and drain others energy or souls for their foundation

 

However, for me, I would ammend it slightly such that the righteous can become demonic, and the demonic can become righteous.  That all of these are more fluid than is generally appreciated by a younger reader.  They would appreciate the rigid sharp contrast of righteous compared to demonic and the comfort that comes from the stability of easy identification and knowing for certain who is who.  The mature reader generally rejects this as a "fairy tale" and instead favors something more realistic which is better described by a more accurate understanding.  And that's why I am always probing the assumptions looking for the light in the dark and the dark in the light.  I have yet to find anything which does not follow this simple fluid patttern ( with one exception, but there are no words to describe it ).

 

 

So, the answer to the question, "what would the wisest do?" is not very exciting.  It doesn't matter what is being discussed.  Here it's immortality and longevity, but it could be anything.  The answer is consistent and true in all circumstances in any possible world:

 

"What would the wisest do?"  It depends.  It's a case-by-case evaluation.

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Daniel

[Nintendao]

Flying sword takes a while to get the hang of. Those things are expensive, too. In the meantime why not practice it on wheels:

 

 

looks pretty easy, right? 😈

 

[ChimpSage]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:37 AM, Sleepy Bluejay said:

Let's have a fun debate!

 

If you were to discover how to cultivate just like the wuxia novels with flying sword and immortality, would you tell or teach the world or keep it a secret?

What would be the cons and pros of telling or teaching everyone immortal cultivation?

What would happen if you keep it a secret, yet keep experimenting with plants and livestock to make them "spiritual/divine"?

 

*Think of things like; the cons and pros of growing spiritual herbs and fruit, could lead to deadly byproducts for mortals, but not for cultivators and such*

 

- A sleepy but curious Bluejay.

I’d give everyone the information it was possible but restrict the methods to those who are truly worthy.

 

The heart must be tested.