S:C Posted November 7, 2023 Where can I find a text that explains the two truth doctrine in simple words? Near to the original? thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 7, 2023 3 hours ago, S:C said: Where can I find a text that explains the two truth doctrine in simple words? Near to the original? thanks nowhere. there is no such doctrine in the original which is the Theravada canon. its a later fabrication by those who did not understand what Buddha said there. Quote Here it’s important to note that the theory of two levels of truth does not appear in the Pali suttas, or discourses, our most reliable records of the Buddha’s own words. It’s a later addition to the tradition. https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Mirror_ofInsight/Section0005.htm l 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sahaja Posted November 7, 2023 I am continually amazed by the level of certainty expressed about what the Buddha actually said and what he meant by it given that earliest writings we have are from hundreds of years after his death. This certainty becomes even more ironic when viewed through the lens of the Kalama sutra. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 7, 2023 32 minutes ago, Sahaja said: I am continually amazed by the level of certainty expressed about what the Buddha actually said hmm let me get this straight 32 minutes ago, Sahaja said: viewed through the lens of the Kalama sutra. we are not certain what the Buddha actually said in other sutras. But we are certain on what he actually said in this one particular Kamala sutra? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted November 7, 2023 6 hours ago, S:C said: Where can I find a text that explains the two truth doctrine in simple words? Near to the original? thanks The Two Truths is a Tibetan interpretive commentary on Nagarjuna's Madhyamika - I think mostly by Chandrakirti. I think if you google this subject you'll find a lot written on it. To put it in a nutshell so to speak - the two truths are 'absolute truth' and 'conventional truth' - which are both held to be true. Absolute truth in Madhyamika is that everything is empty (of self). Conventional truth is that the evidence of non-defective perception is true. So if you see a cup, there is a cup. So in the non-dual philosophy of Madhyamika you can have the position that the cup is not real and yet it is real. If you are looking for final settled certainty - this is not helpful - but if you are looking to shift your consciousness to another level it is helpful. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted November 7, 2023 7 hours ago, S:C said: Where can I find a text that explains the two truth doctrine in simple words? Near to the original? thanks I would point you to the Heart Sutra, if you want simplicity, though it may not engender clarity for you. Quote Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. Shariputra, all dharmas are marked by emptiness； they neither arise nor cease, are neither defiled nor pure, neither increase nor decrease. Therefore, given emptiness, there is no form, no sensation, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no sight, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of sight... no realm of mind consciousness. There is neither ignorance nor extinction of ignorance... neither old age and death, nor extinction of old age and death； no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no path； no knowledge and no attainment. - Heart Sutra The Buddha is saying here, in the first paragraph, that the objects in the world of things have no sepearate intrinsic reality of their own, yet still appear as separate objects, and that BOTH ways of seeing can be understood to be true moment to moment. Their nested reality as objects exists within the larger "emptiness" of their existence - Two Truths. If you have a meditation practice where the mind can rest in its own awareness, any realized teacher can direct you to see this, at least partially. It is much easier in person, though. There are also many commentaries on the Heart Sutra that might illuminate. I can recommend Hakuin, for example. 29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: hmm let me get this straight we are not certain what the Buddha actually said in other sutras. But we are certain on what he actually said in this one particular Kamala sutra? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html Generations of enlightened teachers have repeatedly taught the most popular sutras, and still do today. Enlightened teachers are all over the place - in fact, the very fabric of what you find yourself in is enlightened itself. Forgetting for a moment whether the Buddha actually said or didn't say any of the available teachings, you can be sure that they the balance of them have been verified by those with understanding. What REALLY matters is taking them apart for yourself, hopefully with some guidance. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sahaja Posted November 8, 2023 22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: hmm let me get this straight we are not certain what the Buddha actually said in other sutras. But we are certain on what he actually said in this one particular Kamala sutra? https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html No I am saying two things, one to your response and one to those I hear being strongly opinionated in their views of what the Buddha said 1. Saying something is “the” original is conjecture. 2. Taking a strongly held position on the specifics of what the Buddha said and meant to the point of being argumentative (I’m right and you're wrong) is inconsistent with what the Buddha is purported to have said in the Kalama sutra. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
S:C Posted 13 hours ago On 7.11.2023 at 2:37 PM, Taoist Texts said: nowhere. there is no such doctrine in the original which is the Theravada canon. its a later fabrication by those who did not understand what Buddha said there. l What about the diamond sutra and/or the heart sutra? Is it implied there indirectly or am I mis-interpreting? @Taoist Texts pls don’t leave me hanging here… is that correlated to what @stirling meant by reactions to it could either be the recognition of “I AM” or “emptiness/possibilities”? people need to get outta their diamond cage @Mark Foote ? what am I missing here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
S:C Posted 13 hours ago Nagarjuna points rather to the second, no? Cutting through means realizing there are none or one. Doesn’t make much difference at that level. but what’s to take from there to functionality? nothing. Can’t make anyone understand it only if they have experienced it themselves. Compassion without an I or with an I. … it leaves straw dogs ? I’m lost here… can someone help please? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 13 hours ago 35 minutes ago, S:C said: Nagarjuna points rather to the second, no? Cutting through means realizing there are none or one. Doesn’t make much difference at that level. Nagarjuna is pointing at emptiness - "non-dual 2". 35 minutes ago, S:C said: but what’s to take from there to functionality? nothing. Not entirely sure what you mean here, but a realization of "emptiness" changes our understanding of literally everything. I like to use the simplified axis of time/space/self. What does it mean if there are no dualities in these aspects? What if there is no: self/other, here/there, now/then? 35 minutes ago, S:C said: Can’t make anyone understand it only if they have experienced it themselves. Compassion without an I or with an I. … it leaves straw dogs ? I’m lost here… can someone help please? Yes, you can only understand this through experience. It is not an intellectual understanding... no book, talk, or picture will ever express it or impart its knowledge. Yes, compassion without beings... love without an object. All of this and much more. Ask more specific questions and you might get more specific answers. What do you really want to know? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted 13 hours ago Have you read the Tsin Tsin Ming? Also one of the clearest documents on this topic. https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted 9 hours ago Another good reference for the Two Truths is Mipham’s Beacon of Certainty. It’s not an easy read but Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche is a clear summary and commentary on the Beacon, a great read. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted 6 hours ago 3 hours ago, doc benway said: It’s not an easy read but Journey to Certainty by Anyen Rinpoche is a clear summary and commentary on the Beacon, a great read. Douglas Duckworth's Jamgon Mipam: His Life and Teaching is an excellent summary of Mipam's view in easy to read language. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
