Chain of disillusionment

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Sorry , can you explain   what "  the questioning that comes out of it."  is ?

 

The questioning that arises from learning that some of the traditional martial arts that you used to revere are basically useless, caused me to question "what else have I assumed to be true and in reality is BS?"

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Commercialization of the arts led to a softer and safer approach. Diminishing the reliability and effectiveness of the arts.

 

And that is why I never charge for instruction !  Once you make a business out of it .... you adapt to what makes money . A guy from our club went to a karate class near his residence . he says it is nearly all women and mostly consists of stretching exercises . he asked why . teacher told him 'Thats what they want ." . If he insists on what HE wants , probably loose students and hence money .

 

There are so many opportunities, time sinks and distractions in the modern world everything has to compete for a small pie slice of time and money people have available.

 

Not to mention kids, they used to love training . Now they come all hyped up from 'gaming', want to know how to do a flying side kick on   the first day , then throw the towel in when they realize its going to be a bit harder than pressing some buttons and jiggling a control stick .

 

There's so much to see and do. So much information & content available. Its hard to focus and be single minded towards pursuits like martial arts or qigong. It may have been easier in past eras when there were fewer distractions.

 

Indeed , I kept up because I lead a retired lifestyle , other guys in the club ; work, study, home maintenance, kids   etc .  Okay we will train on Saturday  ....  " But thats my only day off !  " 

 

The arts have adapted and changed to suit our shifting environment. As has qigong, religion and philosophy.

 

Yep .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

10 hours ago, Maddie said:

Anyway since everyone keeps wanting to bring it back to MMA versus traditional martial arts I'll move along with an example of my own lol.

 

Since there's video after video of a Tai chi Master being beat up by an MMA fighter I began to look at other examples where the claims didn't meet reality. As a Buddhist I began to question why even though Buddhism claims to teach the path to enlightenment you never see anybody that's actually enlightened and the sutra say it's supposed to bring benefit here and now. Just as one example.

 Dear I mention the lack of any actual immortals in Taoism?
 

Immortal farts, seemingly, but masters?--ha ha!

My take:
 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” (AN III 414) in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action.  A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.

 

... It’s possible to experience “one-pointedness of mind” and the movement of “one-pointed” mind in the body without experiencing a freedom of that movement in full.  I’ve written about the analogies Gautama provided for the cultivation of “one-pointedness of mind” (The Early Record), and I would say that it’s only in the concentration where the body is suffused with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” that the mind really moves freely. Gautama pointed out that with that concentration, “determinate thought” in action of the body ceases, in particular volition that affects the movement of inhalation or exhalation ceases.
 

That doesn’t mean that action of the body can’t take place, only that the exercise of will or volition is not involved.  I have many times quoted a remark I heard Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa make at the end of one of his lectures at the San Francisco Zen Center:
 

You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

 

If a person “takes the attitude of someone who… lets go of both hands and feet” (as Dogen instructed), then perhaps there will come a moment when the hands and feet walk around.  At that moment, there will be new meaning to be had in cleaning cat boxes, cooking, shopping, driving, and bathing, though these experiences might not involve the attitude that advances from the top of a 100-foot pole throughout.
 

Having said that, I have to add that it’s my belief that not every Zen teacher has experienced the zazen that gets up and walks around.  That doesn’t say that they haven’t experienced the cessation of volition in action of the body, or that they are not qualified to teach Zen, but I think they must have a different perspective on the relationship of practice to the actions of everyday life.
 

To be clear, the cessation of volition in the action of the body is not the experience Gautama associated with his enlightenment–that would be the cessation of volition in the action of the mind, in “feeling and perceiving”.  Having attained to the “cessation of feeling and perceiving”, Gautama saw for himself that suffering is the last link in a chain of cause and effect, and his insight into the nature of suffering was his enlightenment.

 

(Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”)

 

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”:
 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.
 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

As I’ve written previously, there’s an opportunity to make self-surrender the object of thought and to lay hold of “one-pointedness” just before falling asleep:
 

… Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them).
 

… when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate.
 

(Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Gerard said:

Not much different than boxing.

 

Which is a  martial art  as well ... and in case you didnt notice ... and MMA is  rather significantly different than boxing !

 

Real Martial Arts are about conquering yourself rather than hurting others. 

 

Says who ?   A lot of that came into it with Japanese martial arts post WWII , before that it was used to train groups and even cults * to assist in their violent world dominance of the superior Japanese people . After they got nuked their pulled their heads in a bit . Thats what happened in Japan .

 

Do you have evidence of CMA or even FMA coming from this 'conquering yourself ' concept (and I dont mean 'evidence'  from some king fu movie  )

 

my other question is , are you speaking from real MA  personal experience or  'theorizing '   ?

 

* eg.  Aikido ... they even changed the kanji in manuals  to mean things like ' for peace'  and 'in harmony '  , even changed the word for 'opponent' in practice .
 

 

Eg  Our teacher  Mr Nishihira  **   when asked about purpose of learning and training replied ;

" 1. To protect your parents .

2. To protect your household and relatives .

3. To protect yourself to enable you to be able to continue doing 1 and 2 .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira

 

The greatest battle happens within you! 

 

 A modern post WWII 'karate kid'   sentiment   OR   its a battle that happens within you to make yourself better , like every person has,  that does anything from soccer to cliff climbing to pole vaulting  .

 

If there is an equivalent to these sentiments in CMA or FMA , tell me about it .  (Again, if it is outside the movies )

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Maddie said:

Anyway since everyone keeps wanting to bring it back to MMA versus traditional martial arts I'll move along with an example of my own lol.

 

Since there's video after video of a Tai chi Master being beat up by an MMA fighter I began to look at other examples where the claims didn't meet reality. As a Buddhist I began to question why even though Buddhism claims to teach the path to enlightenment you never see anybody that's actually enlightened and the sutra say it's supposed to bring benefit here and now. Just as one example.

 Dear I mention the lack of any actual immortals in Taoism?

 

Aha !

 

" You smell a rat  "     

 

Its through all types of systems , as you no doubt have realized . Their biggest mistake was linking martial arts to their systems . One can debate religion and philosophy but MA is different ... there is no argument ( except on the internet    )  as  ...

 

" The truth is on the floor " 

 

that is , no I am not gonna stand here arguing about the efficiency of something ... step into the ring and I will show you . "

 

ya see , its harder to 'fake fighting'  with an opponent   than it is to fake setting fire to crumpled newspaper  

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

 

Well there's certainly a lot of people who make that claim but every time they fight a real fighter they get their ass beat.

 

I argued with one of them  and he said  he would bring his teacher  here  who could ' put me on my arse from a distance' .... he also claimed special powers  himself      so I  ;

 

" Step into the ring then "   ( an outdoor grassy one at my place  )   all he did was jump around and act silly , I snapped in a groin kick and he was outraged " You kicked me in the balls ! "

 

" Yes , but I didnt hurt you , did I ."

 

Confused ... " No ... why ? "

 

" because I stopped the kick just as my foot started to touch them "   - they was too much for him - too risky, he saw it as a fluke rather than skill (and consideration ) he threw in the towel and decided he had to leave . I said  " bring you no touch teacher here, he can use qi from a distance and I will be going for eyes kneecaps and throat , we will see how he goes . "

 

and he  ' Wow man, thats a bit full on saying you will do that to my teacher ! "

 

Me  ;  " Dude !  YOU where the one that told me you would bring him here, to my place, to have HIM put ME on my arse  !  "   

[Neirong]

On 11.11.2023 at 1:58 AM, Nungali said:

 A modern post WWII 'karate kid'   sentiment   OR   its a battle that happens within you to make yourself better , like every person has,  that does anything from soccer to cliff climbing to pole vaulting  .

Yes, reminded me of Jaden Smith (Will Smith son) Karate Kid movie, The essence of new age bullshit teachings - defeat yourself, become a better man.

The root of all delusion is inability to awaken, being unable to awaken in life people cannot get in touch with true reality, they wander from one illusion to another. Even the lucky ones, who get disillusioned and free themselves from a cult, feel relief or almost enlightenment, only to end up in another cult and another illusion.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Neirong

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Nahfets said:

They don't show off nor allow themselves to interact with the scheme of prestige, competition and crowds." Quote:

 

Well, they could always slip into a phonebox and put on a cool kung fu suit with eye mask 

[Neirong]

12 minutes ago, Nungali said:

" The truth is on the floor " 

If people don't see the elephant in the room, how would you trust them in the intricacies of spiritual teachings and subtle matters?

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

So here's my question about these mystical teachers that are hidden from society, much like Santa Claus and God if no one's ever seen them how do we know they exist?

 

Its just you that cant see them Maddie due to your unevolved state  ... if only you could pass beyond your

"Acting or pretending to be intellectual about these things and worse ... been led many astray into projecting your own lack of connection to The Tao unto worldy affairs. ... lower frequency thinking and  riddled with pretentious attitudes. 

This is not to say there aren't any help or guidance  for you but one has to reform one's life and inner working before these mysteries get's revealed. 

 

and dont  spend entire lifetimes, most likely many, in the illusion of the material world and having lost hope in the spiritual truths, thus enjoy watching more illusions that confirm that at least they were right to be so cynical. "

 

Also I am incredibly handsome and competent , if you dont think so, maybe its your eyes sight and your own lack of perception ? 

 

"But "  Maddie protests ..... " I see you being a dick all the time !   .. and that little kid just pushed you over  while you where in your 'Unmovable Horse Stance  !  " 

 

Ah .. dear Maddie, the world is full of illusions , you dont understand what you saw  .... 

 

 

[Nungali]

52 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

The questioning that arises from learning that some of the traditional martial arts that you used to revere are basically useless, caused me to question "what else have I assumed to be true and in reality is BS?"

 

Yes, certainly . But then I went on to question why , in my case the asnwer was deeply emvbedded in eastern culture .

One examplke is in early training I was told it was rude to ask a question ... just copy master .  Where in the west we want to ask questions and we want good answers .   'Traditionalisms ' are good for cover ups .

 

people scammed in the past just like we do now, but they did it differently and under a different cultural paradigm ...  in japan at least this concept was highly influential  (and perhaps in China too - 'saving face ' )

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

In most systems there is some good  and some bad .....  "  mine the gold " then move on .

- however there is a balance , by not 'embedding' in the system to an extent you may not realize or understand the gold . too much embedding and you might be susceptible to the BS and get sucked in .    Across the board ... not just MAs

[Nungali]

26 minutes ago, Neirong said:

If people don't see the elephant in the room, how would you trust them in the intricacies of spiritual teachings and subtle matters?

 

I would  start them at kindergarten level  and see how they go ... some never go beyond that .

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Yeah if I ever  cross paths with one for sure.

 

When I was younger I fell into a Christian cult. One of the main ways they gave the cult leader legitimacy was to talk about all the amazing miracles he did and visions he had had on the mission field in the Philippines in the past. The funny thing was, is that I never saw him do one single miracle (unless you count getting people to give you all of their money a miracle) the entire time I was around him. It was always far away and long ago, ie. in a place that could not be disputed nor verified by anyone. So to me when I hear of all of these  "secret masters" with powers but you just don't know who they are or you can't see them, this really seems no different to me than the cult leader or for that matter even Santa Clause. I'm of the mindset that I see the proof first and then I believe it, and not the other way around which I think is reasonable.  

I wish you the best of luck then

[Dedicated]

I hear what you're saying Maddie. It is up to us to see what polishes up to be genuine. We have a wealth of information at our fingertips overburdened with misinformation. 

 

With the specific mention of martial arts, I have experienced the difference between a respected lineage of teachers and fake martial art forms. And a friend of mine recommended looking into the lineage of a school. I did feel foolish when I found out, I even hurt myself.

[Nahfets]

21 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

 

I used to think levitation, teleportation and other higher level psychic skills were all fake too. I get it. People forget to look for the powerdynamics of today where capatalist materialists will surpress any spiritual truth and information that will lead people to stop consumption and get out of the wheel. 

The same goes for women encouraging  male masturbation I mean come on. 

These things were spoken of in ancient texts from all over Asia and in Egypt too there are clues. 

But hey our entirely newish culture with a history of banning entheogens and plantmedicine and killing off healing profets and gurus damned as sure know better than these old guys in robes.

 

Go out into the World, do your research and meet some of these people alive today and you will be stunned as to what they can do in terms of powers, healing and insights. 

 

If your insight into your own past and trauma's is not making you question your inbuild scepticism towards new information is it really insight or are you justifying ill behavior. 

 

I have been duped many times too, but this has taught me to do my research inside and outer. 

 

This calls into question what people are doing in the Chinese arts, if not for cultivating small and large medicine for themselves. As a bare minimum to understand the teachings as they were written. 

[Maddie]

^Magic martial artists are real because "trust me bro". 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Maddie

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Nahfets said:

The same goes for women encouraging  male masturbation.

 

What the actual fuuu....?!🤨

[silent thunder]

Shake my head, having a conversation is sometimes more challenging than alchemy. 

And as usual the only one talking about masturbation in the thread... is Nahfets.

 

Just let it go mate.  Like, literally let go of it and think of something, anything else?

[silent thunder]

I've been perusing some of the more intense Muay Thai fighters recently.

This Buakaw is scarier than an SCP story.  For realz.

 

 

The guy who wins the fight in my opinion, is usually the one with the most rounded training regimine before the bout.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Shake my head, having a conversation is sometimes more challenging than alchemy. 

And as usual the only one talking about masturbation in the thread... is Nahfets.

 

Just let it go mate.  Like, literally let go of it and think of something, anything else?

 

 

I find his post  .....  'gripping'  .  

 

Spoiler

Sorry

 

Sometimes I cant help myself .

 

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

This calls into question what people are doing in the Chinese arts, if not for cultivating small and large medicine for themselves. As a bare minimum to understand the teachings as they were written. 
 

 

 

I learned to dance in San Francisco at Mabuhay Gardens in the '80's.  "The Mabuhay" was a Philippines restaurant that converted into a small dance floor and bar after supper, and Dirk Dirksen, the M.C., would have three punk bands a night perform, every day of the week.

The dance floor was small, and oftentimes spectators would crowd the stage.  It became a regular thing at Mabuhay, for somebody to shove a friend into the crowd of spectators.  Pretty soon the spectators would push back, and mayhem would ensue.  For me, the exercise was a lot like the blind-fold thing they do in Aikido, except that all I was trying to do was stay upright as I danced.

After awhile, I got used to dancing from the point of awareness, and amazingly that point can incorporate things I'm not even aware of, and move me--at Mabuhay, move me out of the way of the flying bodies, without leaving the melee.

Sometimes I danced in the bar area of Hamburger Mary's.  I lived above the bar and grill, and they had a DJ who played great records.  I'd have a beer, find myself dancing, end up playing pinball (they always had the newest pinball machines, a big draw).  A thing I discovered was that I could dance by myself in a crowd of people, relying on the same point of awareness, but I had to extend compassion and sympathy through the whole room.  Dancing by permission, as it were.  

 

The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration.  Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow.

... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...
 
... The free placement of attention only occurs with clarity in the fourth concentration, but as Foyan pointed out, such freedom is inherent in human nature.

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

Want to dance in a crowd of people, who are not always like-minded?
 

In some of his lectures, Gautama went from the four initial or “material” concentrations to four “non-material” concentrations.... The four further states, he said, marked a transition from “equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses” to “equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses”.
 

The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”:
 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

(MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48)

 

The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”....

 

 

The basis of the arts, moving from the point of awareness, and extending beyond the boundaries of sense to allow the people on the other side of the wall to move the point of awareness.  Ouija gung-fu!

 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Sanity Check]

 

 

 

Qigong?

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Sanity Check said:

Qigong?

 

Or Nuts-gone. 

[Salvijus]

 

 

If this doesn't convince you of the magical Tai chi then I don't know what will. 

 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

 

If this doesn't convince you of the magical Tai chi then I don't know what will. 

 

 

A video will never convince me, nor should it convince anyone with any critical thinking skills for obvious reasons. 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Maddie