Feeling and mental perception

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

western scholars aside written and oral histories of local peoples from thousands of years already had teachings and beliefs in some of the beings you've mentioned long before Buddhism came about...

 

I don't understand your point.

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

One thing from Buddhism that I dislike is the tendency to view life as 'sucky' and we should engage in meditation for hours rather than enjoy life off-cushion. 

 

Enjoying life is actually much better for you since you no longer block life energy and you become happier as a result. 
 

To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Promises, promises!

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

49 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Somewhere on Dao Bums, I copied in some of the cemetery contemplations from Sattipathana Sutta.  I won't repeat them here, but suffice it to say, Gautama sat in graveyards and observed the stages of decay of the corpses that had been left there.

 

I thought it would be interesting to try this a few years ago, and now I no longer have a libido lol. (sorry if that's TMI) 

[Mark Foote]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I thought it would be interesting to try this a few years ago, and now I no longer have a libido lol. (sorry if that's TMI) 
 

Sorry to hear that!

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Mark Foote said:

Sorry to hear that!

 

Oh don't be sorry, letting go of attachment has been wonderful lol :-)

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I don't understand your point.

 

well one point is that the diversity you spoke  of  in Buddhism several posts back had already been around for thousands of years before Buddhism  came along and then more or incorporated some of it...(in various ways)

 

just as most all human founded religions  do.

Edited November 14, 2023 by old3bob

[Apech]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well one point is that the diversity you spoke  of  in Buddhism several posts back had already been around for thousands of years before Buddhism  came along and then more or incorporated some of it...(in various ways)

 

just as most all human founded religions  do.

sure but my point is he didn’t refute them or say they were imaginary etc.  I wasn’t saying he invented them somehow.

[Bindi]

On 14/11/2023 at 11:40 PM, Apech said:

 

By causes do you mean the results of unresolved experiences, traumas and so on?  My sense is that there is a collection of usually bypassed ancestral material which is energy/feeling/form mixture ... which through affecting our current feeling state and interferes with our freedom to act or be as we would wish.  I think the Buddhist view of this is that these are karmic seeds in the 'alaya' which is a base or storehouse consciousness.   The kind of ultimate view from Buddhism on this would be to allow them to arise, see them for what they are, and allow them to cease.  The Buddhist world is far stranger and multi-dimensional (for want of a better word) than is usually supposed.  For instance it contains all kinds of unembodied beings, ghosts, yakshas, betali, dakinis, gods and demi-gods - all with their own intents and purposes.  It is far from the abstract 'everything is empty so float around on a cloud' which you hear from others.

 

Karmic seeds I agree, where they’re stored can be an interesting question, I currently would say they are stored in kundalini consciousness. For me how to work on them is a continuation of feeling the feeling, which I think is different to seeing them for what they are. I fundamentally see both karma and emotional damage as entirely valid emotional responses to external conditions, which cease when they have delivered their message, and their message has been heard. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 11:40 PM, Apech said:

 

There are two things to be addressed here I think - one is your own 'karma' or your own state of being, happiness or otherwise.  The content of your own being and what you do about it.  The other, which is related is a kind of search for the answer to 'what is this?' - the life we have been 'given' and what is its nature and why.  So I believe there is a continuity between wanting to feel better, freer, less disturbed by things and so on ... and answering the big questions about the nature of reality.

 

Ah, the meaning of life 😀 To me, if I get the entire factory of myself working, only then can I see what the factory is for and what it produces. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 11:40 PM, Apech said:

 

  I ama firm believer in all this that each of us must follow their own heart - and while, yes, we can learn a lot and get a lot of help from systems like Buddhism or Neidan - in the end we make it our own.  This is especially true as there is an enormous amount of b/s out there trying to tempt us into some kind of diversion.
 

 

I see all religions and philosophies as others opinions, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t agree with. It seems to me that buying into any one system does require one to buy into that system’s b/s, and has a high chance of blocking out a competing system’s truths. I remain remarkably happy following my own path 😊

 

On 14/11/2023 at 11:40 PM, Apech said:

 

It is possible also that different cultures, times and even dare I mention it ethnicities have different ways.  For instance it might be that Westerners (by which I mean generally Europeans) tackle things differently, with different emphasis than Easterners.  Also in the past life was much tougher than it is now.  I am reading a biography of the Buddhist master called 'A Saint in Seattle'.  He was born sometimes around 1900 I think and lived in Eastern Tibet.  When he was five years old his parents noticed that he liked playing at being a Lama.  They took this as a sign and decided he should be a monk.  His father took him at five years old to his uncles retreat house - which was so inaccessible that you had to climb down a ladder to get in through the roof.  The uncle was in permanent retreat sealed off from the world, there only being a tiny window through which people could pass food offerings and so on.  His father literally took him there, down the ladder, dumped him on the floor and left without a word.  From that day for at least five years the boy never left the retreat and never had any contact with his mother except through this tiny window.  Imagine doing that today!  Call Social Services!!!  Those old style Lamas did things with extreme intensity and endured great deprivations for the sake of dharma.  Their natural inclination on becoming inspired to follow the dharma was to go into retreat and do nothing but practice for decades.

 

In terms of the subtle body - what the Tibetans call the winds, channels and drops (tsa-lung etc.) in the practice I do (Mahamudra) this is seen as connected to speech (they talk about body, speech and mind).  In a revealed or purified state these become the three kayas.  While the mind-kaya, the dharma-kaya is seen as the closest to fundamentally real, in Mahamudra there is something called the Svabhavikakaya which is all three together and this relates most closely to the ultimate realisation.  So the subtle body is part of it, together with your actual body and your mind.  I don't know if this makes sense.

 

It’s interesting that it’s available if you go looking for it, possibly in many religions and philosophies, so we’re never fully stuck perhaps. I’m glad to hear about the Svabhavikakaya, I dislike the current trend to refer to the body as a meat suit, to see it as an integrated part of the whole seems so much healthier. 

[Bindi]

Double post

Edited November 16, 2023 by Bindi

[Bindi]

On 14/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, johndoe2012 said:

 

Direct healing of negative emotions I found to be more effective than Buddhist techniques which tend to be more mental and not practical for a householder. 
 

 

I tend to agree, to me the coal face is in the heart, but then I did read recently that Buddhists treat the heart/mind as one, so as Maddie suggests maybe this isn’t actually the true core of Buddhism but a shallow Western interpretation. I do have that impression of Western Buddhists myself though. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, johndoe2012 said:

 

Suppression does happen for Buddhists in my experience. The tendency to appear equanimous can just be a facade for buried suppressed emotions. 

 

Not sure why anyone would want to put Buddhism on a pedestal. I do it myself from time to time. Then I look at the requirements for dark retreats, 3 years, and stop thinking it is all that wonderful and go back to what works for me in a practical sense. 

 

One thing from Buddhism that gives me peace is the wish for the happiness of others. 

 

 

The one thing I’ve really been able to use from Buddhism is “This too will pass”, not so much lately but for a while it was a powerful mantra when I needed it. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, johndoe2012 said:

One thing from Buddhism that I dislike is the tendency to view life as 'sucky' and we should engage in meditation for hours rather than enjoy life off-cushion. 
 

 

As Stirling says, one goes to Buddhism when one feels they are suffering, and it’s true, life can be sucky, but there can be other ways to resolve this. Life being sucky can be a call to arms but Buddhism is far from the only answer. Different antidotes can offer different benefits,  life can be seen as a most wonderful opportunity instead of a thing that needs to ultimately be escaped from, I’d prefer to find the value of life rather than the ultimate escape from life which Buddhism ultimately is, and I don’t believe that’s just for Western Buddhists. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 3:42 PM, johndoe2012 said:

 

Enjoying life is actually much better for you since you no longer block life energy and you become happier as a result. 

I would say accepting all feelings… “ is actually much better for you since you no longer block life energy and you become happier as a result.”

 

 

[Maddie]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:42 AM, johndoe2012 said:

 

Direct healing of negative emotions I found to be more effective than Buddhist techniques which tend to be more mental and not practical for a householder. 

 

Suppression does happen for Buddhists in my experience. The tendency to appear equanimous can just be a facade for buried suppressed emotions. 

 

Not sure why anyone would want to put Buddhism on a pedestal. I do it myself from time to time. Then I look at the requirements for dark retreats, 3 years, and stop thinking it is all that wonderful and go back to what works for me in a practical sense. 

 

One thing from Buddhism that gives me peace is the wish for the happiness of others. 

 

One thing from Buddhism that I dislike is the tendency to view life as 'sucky' and we should engage in meditation for hours rather than enjoy life off-cushion. 

 

Enjoying life is actually much better for you since you no longer block life energy and you become happier as a result. 

 

I thought I would go through some of these points one by one because they reflect both the common misunderstandings of Buddhism by non-Buddhists and Buddhists as well.

 

1. In regards to direct healing I have found nothing to be more direct or effective than mindfulness. The Buddha called it the "direct way". Nothing dissolves emotions faster or more effectively then being mindful of them in my experience.

 

2. If one wants to "appear" to be something rather than actually be that thing, then of course suppression is going to happen, but this is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught to see things as they actually are aka mindfulness which is the opposite of suppression. 

 

3. I am not sure what a "dark retreat" is but no Buddhist is required to go on a retreat for three years, or two years, or one year if they don't want to.

 

4. Yes "metta" is awesome!

 

5. Buddhism has often been accused of being "negative" because the first noble truth states that "in life there is suffering". It is important to remember the third noble truth that "there is an end to suffering". 

     The four noble truths are patterned after a doctor. The first noble truth is the diagnosis, there is suffering in life. If one went to a doctor and she said "your diagnosis is cancer" while it is bad news, this does not make the doctor a bad doctor. Rather it would make her an effective one. 

 

6. That being said the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy. 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Maddie

[Apech]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

It’s interesting that it’s available if you go looking for it, possibly in many religions and philosophies, so we’re never fully stuck perhaps. I’m glad to hear about the Svabhavikakaya, I dislike the current trend to refer to the body as a meat suit, to see it as an integrated part of the whole seems so much healthier. 

 

 

I think in some ways the physical body is the greatest mystery of them all - and this is partly because people assume they know what it is.

[Bindi]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think in some ways the physical body is the greatest mystery of them all - and this is partly because people assume they know what it is.

In my experience certain actions of the body performed at exactly the right time  directly affect the subtle energy body. To me this body - subtle body link is indispensable as part of the journey. 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

In my experience certain actions of the body performed at exactly the right time  directly affect the subtle energy body. To me this body - subtle body link is indispensable as part of the journey. 

that is something of the meaning of the three kayas in tantra - that the body, subtle body, and awareness body become aligned/ integrated … ( can’t think of the right word)

Edited November 16, 2023 by Apech

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

 

3. I am not sure what a "dark retreat" is but no Buddhist is required to go on a retreat for three years, or two years, or one year if they don't want to.
 

 

Believe there are Buddhists out there, maybe in Tibet and New Mexico, who feel that three years in a cave is a right of passage. I'm surprised Apech didn't jump in on this, they definitely do long retreats in caves in Tibet.
 

 

Quote

 

5. Buddhism has often been accused of being "negative" because the first noble truth states that "in life there is suffering". It is important to remember the third noble truth that "there is an end to suffering". 
 

 

 

“And what has been explained by me… ? ‘This is anguish’ has been explained by me. ‘This is the arising of anguish’ has been explained by me… ‘This is the stopping of anguish’ has been explained by me. ‘This is the course leading to the stopping of anguish’ has been explained by me. And why… has this been explained by me? It is because it is connected with the goal, is fundamental to the [holy-]faring, and conduces to turning away from, to dispassion, stopping, calming, super-knowledge, awakening, and nibbana. Therefore it has been explained by me.”
 

(MN I 431, Vol II pg 101)

 

 

“Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are anguish. Not to get what one desires is anguish. In short, the five groups based on grasping are anguish.”
 

(AN I 176, Vol I pg 160; Pali “dukkha”: “anguish” in MN, “Ill” in AN original above)

 

 

Quote

     
The four noble truths are patterned after a doctor. The first noble truth is the diagnosis, there is suffering in life. If one went to a doctor and she said "your diagnosis is cancer" while it is bad news, this does not make the doctor a bad doctor. Rather it would make her an effective one. 
 

 

When suffering exists, the rest of the truths also have significance.
 

 

Quote

 

6. That being said the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy. 

 

 

 

To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

That brings us back to the difficulty most of us have in sitting cross-legged on the floor for any great length of time.   Most of my life, I have sat in one bent-knee posture or another 40 minutes, in the morning and at night before bed.  Now I'm down to 25 most of the time, and perish the thought of even a one day sesshin.  

I feel pretty good about the 25's, though, and about my really-not-that-complicated and really-not-that-difficult (at the moment) life.  Zazen has been and continues to be  the most important thing I do, for my sense of well-being.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I thought I would go through some of these points one by one because they reflect both the common misunderstandings of Buddhism by non-Buddhists and Buddhists as well.

 

1. In regards to direct healing I have found nothing to be more direct or effective than mindfulness. The Buddha called it the "direct way". Nothing dissolves emotions faster or more effectively then being mindful of them in my experience.

 

2. If one wants to "appear" to be something rather than actually be that thing, then of course suppression is going to happen, but this is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught to see things as they actually are aka mindfulness which is the opposite of suppression. 

 

3. I am not sure what a "dark retreat" is but no Buddhist is required to go on a retreat for three years, or two years, or one year if they don't want to.

 

4. Yes "metta" is awesome!

 

5. Buddhism has often been accused of being "negative" because the first noble truth states that "in life there is suffering". It is important to remember the third noble truth that "there is an end to suffering". 

     The four noble truths are patterned after a doctor. The first noble truth is the diagnosis, there is suffering in life. If one went to a doctor and she said "your diagnosis is cancer" while it is bad news, this does not make the doctor a bad doctor. Rather it would make her an effective one. 

 

6. That being said the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy. 

 

 

 

How does “the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy” square with the stated point of Buddhism being to stop the cycle of rebirth, rebirth being synonymous with suffering? 

[Maddie]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

How does “the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy” square with the stated point of Buddhism being to stop the cycle of rebirth, rebirth being synonymous with suffering? 

 

The Buddha said that birth is suffering. 😉

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

The Buddha said that birth is suffering. 😉

 

This is confusing to me. 

 

Another individual in a previous conversation elsewhere has convinced has me that pain is not suffering such that a woman in childbirth if she is mindful will not suffer while she is in pain.  They told me that the clinging to the pain in that moment causes suffering, the clinging to the projected/expected continued pain causes the suffering, the clinging to the projected/expected life of the child and the fear of losing it causes suffering, etc... but the pain of childbirth is not necessarily suffering.

 

If so I consider the infant as it is being born, and I am not sure if it suffering.  I wonder if their brain has developed to the point of projection, expectation, and clinging beyond the immediate moment.  

 

Question:  do you think infants are naturally mindful by default? If so, maybe they are not suffering?

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Daniel

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

This is confusing to me. 

 

Another individual in a previous conversation elsewhere has convinced has me that pain is not suffering such that a woman in childbirth if she is mindful will not suffer while she is in pain.  They told me that the clinging to the pain in that moment causes suffering, the clinging to the projected/expected continued pain causes the suffering, the clinging to the projected/expected life of the child and the fear of losing it causes suffering, etc... but the pain of childbirth is not necessarily suffering.

 

If so I consider the infant as it is being born, and I am not sure if it suffering.  I wonder if their brain has developed to the point of projection, expectation, and clinging beyond the immediate moment.  

 

Question:  do you think infants are naturally mindful by default? If so, maybe they are not suffering?

 

 

Birth is considered suffering because it perpetuates our existence in samsara.

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Birth is considered suffering because it perpetuates our existence in samsara.

 

Let's start with the infant?  Do you think the infant is mindful by default?  It's an interesting idea, isn't it?

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Daniel

[Maddie]

Just now, Daniel said:

 

Let's start with the infant?  Do you think the infant mindful by default?  

 

To focus on the infant is to miss the point. Perpetuation of samsara is the point. Birth is how samsara is perpetuated.

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

To focus on the infant is to miss the point. Perpetuation of samsara is the point. Birth is how samsara is perpetuated.

 

*sigh* 

 

nevermind

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

To focus on the infant is to miss the point. Perpetuation of samsara is the point. Birth is how samsara is perpetuated.

 

OK.  If that's true then birth is the enemy.  No one should procreate, and the human race goes extinct.

 

21 hours ago, Maddie said:

the point of Buddhism is to enjoy life and be happy. 

 

If birth is the enemy, then the goal of buddhism is extinction of the human race.

 

I'm glad we cleared that up...

[old3bob]

If the historic Buddha had never been born in many incarnations (as he somewhat recounted) then he never would have reached "beyond the beyond" and "wonder of wonders" !

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Believe there are Buddhists out there, maybe in Tibet and New Mexico, who feel that three years in a cave is a right of passage. I'm surprised Apech didn't jump in on this, they definitely do long retreats in caves in Tibet.
 

 

 

 

Never jump in a dark cave - you could hit your head.