Feeling and mental perception

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Is that the one next to "Jesus actually wrote the US constitution"?

 

Silly !

 

Jesus  IS  the Buddha !   Dont forget I did study Comparative Religion at University !

 

However  that University  was in Australia . 

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

… about  9 yo …

 Look at that face, definitely a grumpy old man. 
 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 Look at that face, definitely a grumpy old man. 
 

 

 

That cat is so cute and I love that it's his profile pic lol 😺🩷

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

That cat is so cute and I love that it's his profile pic lol 

I agree!

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[liminal_luke]

54 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

It's the one next to @Cobie would like to meet you for drinks after the thread.

 

 

 

If ya fancy a larger Bums meetup, look for me in the next booth over, chowing down with the old, fat, bald cigar-smoking Russian.

Edited November 18, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Cobie

[liminal_luke]

On 18/11/2023 at 1:44 PM, Cobie said:

Is he MoPai?

 

...

Edited November 24, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Cobie]

One Russian, one Dutch, one Mexican and one American, should be interesting. 
 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Apech]

24 minutes ago, Cobie said:

One Russian, one Dutch, one Mexican and one American, should be interesting. 
 

 

 

One Russian, one Dutch, a Mexican and American walked into a bar ....

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

One Russian, one Dutch, a Mexican and American walked into a bar ....

Make mine a large one, said the Russian’

 

Try preserving your jing, said the Dutch.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

One Russian, one Dutch, a Mexican and American walked into a bar ....

 

A cat sauntered over, pulled out a small writing pad and pen, and gave the raucous group a weary smile. The white russian asked for a custom drink with vodka and cream, the Dutch dude asked for separate checks, the Mexican mumbled something in Spanish, and the American kicked off her heels revealing gorgeously stockinged feet..  She said stillettos were hell to walk in.  It was going to be a long night.

Edited November 18, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Daniel]

22 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Say, Daniel--here's a thought for you.   Maybe it's about a chaining of consciousnesses, more than physical rebirth.  Note the second and third elements in the chain below--the persistence of consciousness, the stationing of consciousness:

 

Thank you, I think that has a great deal of potential for common ground between my point of view and buddhist teachings.  I need to re-read the references you brought and ponder it.  

 

If you are inclined, it would be helpful for me if you would summarize what you posted in your own words.  I think I understand how it applies to the post you quoted, but, I'm not sure.

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Daniel

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, Maddie said:

I think that was taken about a month or two ago. I took this one this morning on the way to work since ya'll seem so curious lol

You have really kind eyes. And enviable skin. I think a fringe would look nice on you. Have you ever tried that? 
 

 

[Maddie]

21 minutes ago, Cobie said:

You have really kind eyes. And enviable skin. I think a fringe would look nice on you. Have you ever tried that? 
 

 

 

Thank you! 😌

 

Do you mean like bangs? I've never tried it before but I thought about it.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

That cat is so cute and I love that it's his profile pic lol 😺🩷

 

You dont see the grumpiness ? 

 

Not to mention the look of  calculated evil !

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

If ya fancy a larger Bums meetup, look for me in the next booth over, chowing down with the old, fat, bald cigar-smoking Russian.

 

Are you claiming to have a large bum than us ? 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Make mine a large one, said the Russian’

 

Try preserving your jing, said the Dutch.

 

 

 

 

" I dont know what you are referring to , but ours is certainly bigger ! "  said the American .

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Thank you! 😌

 

Do you mean like bangs? I've never tried it before but I thought about it.

 

 

I had to look that one up.   Bangs  =  fringe  ?  

[Cobie]

15 hours ago, Maddie said:

Do you mean like bangs? …

 

“bangs”?? Google: bang noun plural noun: bangs 1. … 2.  NORTH AMERICAN a fringe of hair cut straight across the forehead. Righto, then yes, bangs. 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I'm not going to say what that means 'down here ' . 

 

 

Spoiler

But you probably mean  something like ....

 

 

I am not sure it would suit you .

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Nungali

[Mark Foote]

20 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Thank you, I think that has a great deal of potential for common ground between my point of view and buddhist teachings.  I need to re-read the references you brought and ponder it.  

 

If you are inclined, it would be helpful for me if you would summarize what you posted in your own words.  I think I understand how it applies to the post you quoted, but, I'm not sure.

 

 

Ok.  A point that people often overlook in Gautama's teaching about suffering is his identification of suffering with grasping in the five groups:

 

“Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are anguish. Not to get what one desires is anguish. In short, the five groups based on grasping are anguish.”
 

(AN I 176, Vol I pg 160; Pali “dukkha”: “anguish” in MN, “Ill” in AN original above, emphasis added)

 

 

The first thing that tells me is that "life is suffering" is not a correct rendering of the first truth.  Grasping after a sense of self, in any of five categories Gautama identified is suffering, not life per se.

Now how does that correlate with "birth, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair"--most peculiar.  The only correlation I can find is in our experience of ourselves.  It's not birth, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, or despair so much as the identification of self with body, feelings, perceptions, habits, and consciousness that causes  consciousness to get stuck and repeat itself in the same relationship to these things over and over again.

That's the way I make sense of "consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from... the five groups based on grasping".

 

Thank you for asking for that explanation, Daniel--helps me to understand my own thoughts, more clearly.

Nevertheless, the insight into the nature of suffering doesn't mean much without a means of escape.  

 

The opposite of "a stationing":
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

When necessity places attention, and a presence of mind is retained as the placement shifts and moves, then in Gautama’s words, “[one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness”:
 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

There's a whole lecture where Gautama describes his chief disciple, Sariputta, moving from one stage of concentration to the next.  At the close of each stage, Sariputta comprehends:  "there is a further escape."  When Sariputta passes from "neither-perception-nor-non-perception" and enters and abides in "the stoppping of ('determinate thought' in) perception and feeling", we have the following description:
 

And having seen by means of intuitive wisdom, his cankers are utterly destroyed.  Mindful, he emerges from that attainment.  When he has emerged, mindful, from that attainment he regards those things that are past, stopped, changed as :  'Thus indeed things that have not been in me come to be; having been they pass away.' He, not feeling attracted by these things, not  feeling repelled, independent, not infatuated, freed, released, dwells with a mind that is unconfined.  He comprehends "There is no further escape." 

(MN III "Discourse on the Uninterrupted" 25, Pali Text Society III p 77)

 

 

"A mind that is unconfined":

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)
 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Cobie]

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Edited July 19 by Cobie

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

...  It's not birth, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, or despair so much as the identification of self with body, feelings, perceptions, habits, and consciousness that causes  consciousness to get stuck and repeat itself in the same relationship to these things over and over again. ....

 

 

I am thinking of two things here :

 

Sorrow and suffering seems to  exist when self is identified  with ( or impacted by ) old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, or despair, but not when 'self' is seen as something beyond those things .  Of course we suffer from pain  sickness and old age physically  but 'philosophically ' if one has self centered  beyond those things  then they dont have the same impact .

 

A physical example would be , and I have heard a few   feel this, as I have  ( and its easier to start with an extremity , as opposed to an internal or body problem , like  the spine )  if you have a bad pain or injury in your arm , do not think 'I am in pain , this hurts me ' think , my arm (or even  'this arm ' ) is in pain .  And the pain seems more bearable .

 

The other thing is I dont think consciousness 'gets stuck '  I think 'experience' is embedded in parts of consciousness that do not survive death , hence are 'lost' along with the body  and "memories' .  If  life experience and lessons are not learned I feel we have to repeat them until they are , hence  possibly making  some endless circular 'skip' like an LP record 'having' to go over the same lesson over and over again , for who knows how long  ... IMO this being 'trapped on the wheel ' and does not lead to 'liberation ' .

 

If incarnations experiences are  learned and held by 'that which survives and actual knowledge and incarnation experiences  are learnt 'in spirit'  , they create a 'firm block' or level of foundation to 're incarnate' for the next 'set of lessons ' . We are still incarnating but now instead of being trapped on some blind repetitive roundabout , now each 'cycle' is a spiral , going ever upwards and outwards .

 

Or another way of looking at it  is ; Incarnation has not stopped , but we are not 'trapped on the wheel ' , as it where  but centered  on the 'axle' , which is actually moving forward  ( if we can get some progress / 'traction'  happening ) .

 

No, I cant cite any of this from Buddhist  scripture  .. it comes from my tradition and my conversations with 'upstairs ' .

[Mark Foote]

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Or another way of looking at it  is ; Incarnation has not stopped , but we are not 'trapped on the wheel ' , as it where  but centered  on the 'axle' , which is actually moving forward  ( if we can get some progress / 'traction'  happening ) .

 

Was it on this thread, or another, where someone (maybe Apech?) pointed out the the term used for suffering in Gautama's time was related to the axle of a wheel, to a  problem with the axle.

Sounds right to me.

You're right that Gautama was trying to have his cake and eat it too.  He spoke of "never-returners" and "once-returners",  and that implies future incarnation of something, conditioned by actions in the current life and past lives.  That doesn''t equate straight across to suffering as "the five groups of grasping", and consciousness stuck by grasping in repeated feelings and perceptions with regard to body, feelings, mind, habit, and consciousness.

When I look to my own suffering, and a path out of suffering, I can't be thinking about the next life.  I can understand for some, that may be the only relief they have from suffering.  I think I understand why Gautama refuted the fisherman Sati's beliefs about that:

 

“[Gautama] spoke thus to the monk Sati, a fisherman’s son, as he was sitting down at a respectful distance:
 

‘Is it true, as is said, that a pernicious view like this has accrued to you, Sati: “In so far as I understand [the truth] taught by [Gautama], it is that this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another”?’
 

‘Even so do I… understand [the teaching] ….’
 

‘What is this consciousness, Sati?’
 

‘It is this… that speaks, that feels, that experiences now here, now there, the fruition of deeds that are lovely and that are depraved.’
 

[Gautama rebukes Sati for his misrepresentation of Gautama’s teaching, and continues:] It is because… an appropriate condition arises that consciousness is known by this or that name: if consciousness arises because of eye and material shapes, it is known as visual consciousness; if consciousness arises because of ear and sounds, it is known as auditory consciousness; [so for the nose/smells/olfactory consciousness, tongue/tastes/gustatory consciousness, body/touches/tactile consciousness, mind/mental objects/mental consciousness]. …As a fire burns because of this or that appropriate condition, by that it is known: if a fire burns because of sticks, it is known as a stick-fire; and if a fire burns because of chips, it is known as a chip-fire; … and so with regard to grass, cow-dung, chaff, and rubbish.”
 

(MN I 258-259, Vol I pg 313-315)

 

 

Even so, as a practical matter, I'm going with: 
 

When necessity places attention, and a presence of mind is retained as the placement shifts and moves, then in Gautama’s words, “[one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness”:
 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Was it on this thread, or another, where someone (maybe Apech?) pointed out the the term used for suffering in Gautama's time was related to the axle of a wheel, to a  problem with the axle.

 

...

 

I would go with the 'perception' ... as usual the problem lies with the perception ... that our consciousness  needs to be on the rim ( fixed in experience ), while the perception  should be that consciousness needs to be fixed at the axle ( that is not the experience itself but what we should be learning * from that experience . )

 

* this brings to mind the Sufi expression ; 'learning how to learn ' ... it is not considered that real learning comes naturally, its something we have to learn  to do ... to allow it to actually get in and create change .

 

I have seen a LOT of this with people , some do the same wrong thing and suffer over and over again, even in the one incarnation and even when they (sorta) know the problems they are causing  , while others learn quickly and move on to the next thing .

 

Feeling, and thought, and ecstasy

Are but the cerements of Me.
Thrown off like planets from the Sun
Ye are but satellites of the One.
But should your revolution stop
Ye would inevitably drop
Headlong within the central Soul,
And all the parts become the Whole.
Sloth and activity and peace,
When will ye learn that ye must cease?

 

- The Rite of Jupiter