Has there ever been a movie portraying a society without lies??

[Owledge]

I mean, does this even exist?? I don't mean some cheesy comedy about someone getting the truth serum vibes, but a portrayal of a functioning society where everybody is openly communicating sincerely.

If there has never been at least one such movie, how telling would that be?!

[silent thunder]

Potent question Owledge.  I can't recall one.

 

There may have been characters within films that attempt to portray this concept.  But not a film with this as a concept central to the plot that I've ever encountered or heard of...

 

Certainly there have been Utopia centered films, but nothing in the fictional genre comes even close to your description in my mind.  Perhaps there are some documentaries?  But even that would be subject to the normative interactions that all human socializing is centered on which is saturated in hidden meaning, well intentioned fibbing and outright fabrication and lies.

 

Expanding a bit, I don't recall encountering any written stories, novellas, or novels with this as a central concept.

 

Really potent question mate.  You've given me a nice bone to chew on for a bit! 

Thank you for sharing.

[Owledge]

Indeed, there are various films exploring highly spiritually evolved societies, and I also remember one movie of a woman from such being thrown into our ugly world and trying to cope (I remember a scene of her in a nursery ward with a baby in her arms to 'recharge' and in another scene admiring the vigor of city street trees), and there is that one inspiring scene from K-PAX taking about a society without laws or crime, which kinda makes it even more astounding that no one seems to have picked this spiritual theme up, considering what a profound pillar truth plays in spirituality and generally in humankind's well-being.

 

And if there was a book about this, it would definitely be worth exploring in movie format, since the acted out version of social interactions would be delightful.

Too bad I'm not a movie director, hah, otherwise such niche-filling opportunities tend to be golden.

I could imagine someone from our world ending up in such a utopia, to produce contrast, to see how that person deals with that society and also how that society responds to the odd outsider. Also to be considered would be whether they can even comprehend lying, and how either variant would play out. Highly interesting spiritual-philosohpical-sociological exploration.

 

Hollywood seems busy with self-destruction right now, so someone else would have to pick up the task. 😏

 

There is, of course, always the risk of such a movie being profoundly unpopular. 😏 (Could be marketed in the psychological horror genre.)

 

A Hollywood production would also, of course, come to the conclusion that lying is quite nice sometimes, and we cannot live without it and should just accept everything as it is and falls. 🤷‍♂️

 

... Oh wow, not even a Star Trek episode touched this theme ever?? 🤔 (And Vulcan really doesn't cut it.)

Edited November 15, 2023 by Owledge

[thelerner]

Bit of a comedy but Ricky Gervais's movie The Invention of Lying, had that exact premise. 

It was kind of a depressing world, everyone told the truth, often little unpleasant things that we normally wouldn't talk about.  History and arts tended to be boring.  The title character invents lying, and since it was new, everything he said was considered truthful.  Hijinx followed until he could get a hold of his awesome power.   

[Owledge]

I think I remember that movie. Better than nothing, but so not about enlightenment. IIRC they made the rookie mistake of confusing sincerity with openness and pushed the concept of blunt rudeness hard, and also approached it from the angle of that society being too dumb to comprehend lies, so yeah, quite what one would expect from a comedy. Not entirely void of enlightenment potential for the audience, but likely mostly for the astute student, and that one would feel quite dissatisfied. More of a dystopia and exactly doing what I mentioned - missionary work for the status quo. 'Look, here comes the normal guy into a messed up society and rebalances the world.' with a side of 'of course a bit more honesty in the right situations would be nice.'

Edited November 15, 2023 by Owledge

[thelerner]

I agree and didn't like it for that reason. 

Maybe closer to the mark was What Dreams May Come.  I found it genuinely touching and philosophical.  Starring Robin Williams it explores an afterlife scenario.  People are truthful and can live out their dreams, yet for Suicides their dark dreams follow them into the afterlife.  

[Owledge]

Hm, relatively far away from the concept, but that movie is one of my favorites. A strong antithesis to the garbage served recently.

[silent thunder]

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter and Spring Again comes to mind as a possible film that may tangentially address this.  Not in the way that it revolves around lying/deception or truth telling, but the relationship between the young monk and the elder pings me on this topic. 

 

It's been years since I viewed it, but it resonated while mulling this topic over.  Even if I'm way off base, I recall the relationships were striking in it and may be worth a re-view, or a first glance.

[Sanity Check]

 

[Kojiro]

human being always lie, always, but a good movie portraying many dark truths of our society is Requiem for a dream. Highly recommended, one of my favourite movies ever

[Khun Paen]

There can't be a society with truth, and no lies, because truth creates lies. Opposites come together and can't be separated. 

[Owledge]

3 hours ago, Khun Paen said:

There can't be a society with truth, and no lies, because truth creates lies. Opposites come together and can't be separated. 

That is status quo spiritualism, which is in itself a defiance of all possibilities and thus dualities, because where there is a middle, there are extremes, and neither could exist without the other. And the thesis is that a society with pretty much no lying, an extreme, could exist, ironically through cultivation of spiritual wisom teachings, at least the non-status-quo type. It would simply require working towards truth without waging war on lies. Fear is the motivational root of suffering.

[old3bob]

From the old movie, Liar liar

 

[old3bob]

many of us talk a lot about "enlightenment" but the truth  (and part of the price to pay ) is that with enlightenment all our private and often painful secrets are revealed,  and frankly it takes a brave soul to fully handle that level of revelation of themselves (to the end of it) plus saintly wisdom to see and handle the same regarding others ... thus real saints have accepted  the light of day upon their self recognized  transgressions or shortcomings... nor do they indulge in casting  stones upon those of others others.

 

(of course I'm very far from being any kind of saint but fortunately I have crossed paths with a few)

Edited December 6, 2023 by old3bob

[Maddie]

We can even get people to agree about what happened in reality lol. 

[doc benway]

The Dark Forest, the second book in a trilogy by Liu Cixin, features an alien sentience which communicates through thought, rendering dishonesty unintelligible. I believe the series is being adapted for the screen.

[Owledge]

19 minutes ago, steve said:

The Dark Forest, the second book in a trilogy by Liu Cixin, features an alien sentience which communicates through thought, rendering dishonesty unintelligible. I believe the series is being adapted for the screen.

How exactly does that play out? Why would dishonesty be unintelligible and to whom? 🤔

[doc benway]

39 minutes ago, Owledge said:

How exactly does that play out? Why would dishonesty be unintelligible and to whom? 🤔

 

I’ve only just started the book.

It describes a life form who communicates through thought and is unable to distinguish “thinking” and “saying.” They struggle with the concept of lying because they have no method of hiding what they are thinking when saying. 

 

 

[Owledge]

8 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I’ve only just started the book.

It describes a life form who communicates through thought and is unable to distinguish “thinking” and “saying.” They struggle with the concept of lying because they have no method of hiding what they are thinking when saying. 

 

 

That opens discussion about the relationship between lies told and self-deception. Could someone still tell a lie falsely believed to be true? This is where the societal aspect comes in, because where there are no lies and that is to work, I would imagine self-deception also fading.

[kakapo]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:01 PM, Owledge said:

I mean, does this even exist?? I don't mean some cheesy comedy about someone getting the truth serum vibes, but a portrayal of a functioning society where everybody is openly communicating sincerely.

If there has never been at least one such movie, how telling would that be?!

 

I look forward to a future where I can record every second of my life in 8k+ super high definition. 
 

There could be no question over who said what, or when.

 

I would love to be able to have a mind reading AI be able to read my intentions, sincerity, and know with certainty if i am telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

I would want to only interact with other people who used AI in this way to prove they were being honest and sincere, with no ulterior motives. 

 

I would want to live in a society where deception was impossible by design. 

 

 

[Owledge]

10 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

I look forward to a future where I can record every second of my life in 8k+ super high definition. 
 

There could be no question over who said what, or when.

 

I would love to be able to have a mind reading AI be able to read my intentions, sincerity, and know with certainty if i am telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

I would want to only interact with other people who used AI in this way to prove they were being honest and sincere, with no ulterior motives. 

 

I would want to live in a society where deception was impossible by design. 

 

 

I am speaking of a utopia, not the dime-a-dozen dystopian concept that empowers lies further through the blind declaring war.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Owledge

[kakapo]

12 hours ago, Owledge said:

I am speaking of a utopia, not the dime-a-dozen dystopian concept that empowers lies further through the blind declaring war.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

I don't see what I described as a dystopia at all.

 

I don't mean to get this thread too far off topic, but I would like to share a life experience I had with you.

 

I used to work in IT at a local college. 

 

We had one employee they had almost iridescent purple hair, and had an extremely narcissistic high maintenance personality.

 

From day one it was walking on eggshells with this person, but eventually we settled into a groove that was manageable.

 

One day we had a vaccine clinic at work.  

 

On my medical paperwork I indicated an allergy and spoke with the nurse about the allergy, to ensure the formulation they were using did not contain it.

 

I won't die but it causes my arm to blister and weep, something I would like to avoid if possible.

 

The purple haired employee came in at the right time to overhear my conversation.

 

Immediately after I had my vaccine the purple haired employee let into me in front of our department.

 

Purple Hair: Kakapo! I didn't know you were an antivaxxer!

 

Kakapo:  I'm not I was just discussing an allergy wi...

 

Purple Hair:  You think that vaccines cause autism.

 

Kakapo: No I don't think that.

 

Purple Hair: Yes you do!  You think [previously mentioned allergen] causes autism.

 

Kakapo: No I don't think that.

 

Purple Hair: Yes you do!

 

Kakapo: No I am pro-vaccine.  Vegans don't eat steak, and antivaxxers don't get vaccines.  I am just trying to avoid exposure to...

 

Purple Hair: You are a dumb [expletive] because you should know they took that out of vaccines.

 

I pull out my cellphone and go to FDA.GOV, which has an a recent article on this exact topic, and it shows that all multi-dose formulations of the vaccine contain this allergen.  I attempt to show a chart to purple hair.

 

Purple Hair:  I am not looking at your antivaxxer nonsense.

 

At this point we had a small crowd staring at us because of the scene purple hair was creating, so I politely excused myself from the situation.

 

There are a lot more details of things that happened, but for the sake of brevity I'll omit them. 

 

I received a text, email, and multiple in person requests for a private off campus after hours meeting.

 

Finally I was told the meeting was mandatory.

 

I respond to their email, and set some boundaries stating I needed another employee present for the meeting, and some other things i considered reasonable. 

 

They possibly edited my email, I am not sure exactly. 

 

This wound up being an HR issue, and HR refused to listen to anything I had to say about the topic.

 

They were convinced I was lying and that purple hair was the victim, and I was trying force poor purple hair to have a meeting after hours off campus that they were uncomfortable with.

 

I was terminated after the meeting with HR, and no amount of reasoning or evidence mattered.

 

In my life I've had multiple instances of similar nonsense from people lying and twisting situations to create problems for me.

 

I would absolutely love love love love,  to have a video record of all social interactions, and the ability to have AI know my true intentions, and if I was lying or not. 

 

I would love to have the ability to point the finger back at them and say well hey if you are telling the truth, prove it!  Let's get the AI involved and have it vouch for your honesty and sincerity. 

 

I would love when I had business dealings with a person that I could have a way to certify their true intentions, and vice versa. 

 

Ideally I would want to be in a collective of people in a situation where if we interacted with others by design if we were attempting to deceive another our intentions would be known. 

 

I would like my and everyone else in the collective's options to be remain silent, or speak only the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Always and forever.

 

You see this as dystopian, and I see it as a godsend.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by kakapo

[Owledge]

54 minutes ago, kakapo said:

You see this as dystopian, and I see it as a godsend.

 

Because only your pain matters here. You lust for a weapon to wage war against insane people, but that weapon is being provided by the same psychological current you are trying to fight. It is all a power trip over externalized power that is easy to control by others and weakens us internally.

You are at the very beginning of the spiritual journey, so to speak, if you so willingly commit follies that are even in the realm of popculture examination. You want to cut the arm off that hurts. You believe that insane people can be changed by slapping overwhelming truth in their face. That in itself could be seen as a form of insanity.

 

Here is a movie I can recommend to you - Revolver (2005):

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365686/

 

And here is an excellent spiritual primer about the foundations, probably best watched after the movie so as to not diminish the experience:

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Owledge

[kakapo]

58 minutes ago, Owledge said:

Because only your pain matters here. You lust for a weapon to wage war against insane people, but that weapon is being provided by the same psychological current you are trying to fight. It is all a power trip over externalized power that is easy to control by others and weakens us internally.

You are at the very beginning of the spiritual journey, so to speak, if you so willingly commit follies that are even in the realm of popculture examination. You want to cut the arm off that hurts. You believe that insane people can be changed by slapping overwhelming truth in their face. That in itself could be seen as a form of insanity.

 

Here is a movie I can recommend to you - Revolver (2005):

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365686/

 

And here is an excellent spiritual primer about the foundations, probably best watched after the movie so as to not diminish the experience:

 

 

For me I want artificial intelligence to solve a social problem.

 

Everywhere, all the time people deceive other people. 

 

I want to live in a society where this problem is solved. 

 

Either remain silent or speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 

I actually want to live in a society where I can verify the claims of another person as true, and I don't have to accept on faith they are being honest. 

 

I think AI could be used in such a way to level the playing field.

 

I would like to live in a society where AI oversaw social interactions to ensure that information exchanged was true, and that dealings were legal, ethical, and moral.

 

The way I see it there is a flaw in human behavior, and it is within our power to fix it, and I would want to live in a society like that.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by kakapo