Taoism according to.....

[Maddie]

I started off on my path via qigong/Taoism and like many westerners I assumed the two were practically synonymous. Then I discovered Taoism differed drastically depending upon whom you asked. 

     If you asked many westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy. If you asked someone from China or Taiwan the answer tended to differ drastically being that Taoism was doing ceremonies at a Taoist temple. To be honest I didn't like this because it seemed "too religious". 

    To further complicate matters since I first got into all of this when I was a history major in college, I asked my eastern studies professor about what Taoism is and she made it sound like a philosophy of reading and studying the TTC. 

    To this day I still don't really know what Taoism really is or is supposed to be. Honestly it was largely due to this confusion amongst other things that caused me to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

 So that being said what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

[Cobie]

57 minutes ago, Maddie said:

… China or Taiwan  … Taoism was doing ceremonies at a Taoist temple …

 

Well, it’s their indigenous religion, so I’d say that’s Taoism.

 

57 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 … westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy …

… eastern studies professor … Taoism is … a philosophy of reading and studying the TTC …

These are the two branches of PWT, popular western Taoism.
PWT is a new  religion recently formed in the west,  vaguely based on the native Taoism. 
 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

 

Well, it’s their indigenous religion, so I’d say that’s Taoism.

 

These are the two branches of PWT, popular western Taoism.
PWT is a new  religion recently formed in the west,  vaguely based on the native Taoism. 
 

 

 

I feel like this is the fastest satisfactory answer to a question I've ever experienced on a thread lol.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

So that being said what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

In the Chinese mind, there was such thing as Taoism. However, the term was created by Westerner and was assumed it is a Tao religion. It doesn't distinguish the difference between the study of the Tao Te Ching and the Tao religion.

The scholars who study the Tao philosophy of Laotze(老子) called it 道學. If I can invent a term for it, then, I wound call it Taology.
The religious part of Taoism is called 道教. In the Chinese language, a character 教 was added at the end of another character to indicate that is a religion sect. The common English translation of 道教 was referred as Taoism and ignored the scholarly part.

The philosophy of Laotze(Taology) is based on his famous patterned term Wu Wei, 無為. Wu Wei is translated as "let nature take its course". The philosophy behind it is do not take action interfere with nature. For that said, one was asked not to force thing to happen but let it happen by itself. For example, if the son wants to be an artist, then, the father should not ask the son to become a doctor. I know a true story that a son committed suicide after he got his degree in dentistry. It was because his father won't let him to be an artist. If the father practiced the Tao philosophy, he would have had let his son to become what he wants to be. This is what the practice of the Tao philosophy  is all about.

Edited November 18, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

In the Chinese mind, …  It doesn't distinguish the difference between the study of the Tao Te Ching and the Tao religion 

Exactly. 
“The distinction between so-called “philosophical Daoism” and so-called “religious Daoism” is a modern Western fiction …”

https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 If you asked many westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy.

Qigong or internal alchemy is a practice of breathing exercise by the ancient Chinese Taoist to have longevity.

[Maddie]

This has been a surprisingly helpful and informative thread so far. Thank you! 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

… two branches of PWT …

PWT distinguishes between “religious Daoism” (道教 dao4 jiao1) and “philosophical Daoism” (道家 dao4 jia1, this one is your professor’s branch). 
 

In the forum heading, it says 道家學說 (dao4 jia1 xue2 shuo1), so @wandelaar I think this forum was originally set up to discuss “philosophical Daoism”. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

The supposition that there is no ancient distinction between philosophical and religious Taoism is itself a modern (or rather postmodern) western fiction. Like so much else of postmodernism it's without merit.

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

I started off on my path via qigong/Taoism … to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

Chinese Buddhism and Taoism have influenced each other a lot, so your knowledge of Buddhism might also be useful for Taoism. 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Chinese Buddhism and Taoism have influenced each other a lot, so your knowledge of Buddhism might also be useful for Taoism. 

 

A lot more than is generally accepted.

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Chinese Buddhism and Taoism have influenced each other a lot, so your knowledge of Buddhism might also be useful for Taoism. 

 

 

Actually now I feel like I understand Taoism even less than before.

[silent thunder]

Then I'd say you're honing in on it @Maddie 

 

Opening lines of the TTJ, The tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.  (followed shortly by one who knows does not speak, while those who speak do not know) 

 

Taoism to me, seems an experiential process unique to each awareness who engages with it.

And the experience of it, does not lend to being shared in words readily, or accurately.

 

One seemingly may be aware and engaged with the path, while not necessarily being able to describe it in human words, which are clumsy small human-centric abstract objects incapable of encapsulating such experiences.

Edited November 20, 2023 by silent thunder

[Cobie]

 

Quote

 ... what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

There are many different ways. Even here in this thread, Chidragon, Wandelaar and I, all do totally different things. 
 

17 hours ago, Maddie said:

… now I feel like I understand Taoism even less than before.

 Always happy to help.
 

Seriously, I’d say don’t worry about it. 

 

22 hours ago, Maddie said:

… caused me to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

To “drift towards” sounds to me like you already did practice Daoism. The Way of the water (no pun intended) just going with the natural flow. At this moment in time you do Buddhism. Follow your nose. 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Cobie

[Sahaja]

I try to steer clear of this Daoist philosophy versus Daoist religion debate and instead focus on those concepts that resonate with my experience of life. In actuality some of these concepts were not historically limited to Daoism showing up in the Ru and Esoteric Buddhist beliefs  as well.  I find the model of cosmology, the concepts of yin/yang, three treasures, five phases, zirwan, wu/wei and other related wu concepts are all a very helpful framework for understanding and navigating life. some of them like de are still a work in progress for me (I guess my de is still lacking - haha) I prefer Zhuangzi (inner chapters are the best) to the Dao De Jing. Have been reading Lieu-Tzu’s practical guide to Taoist living by Eva Wong lately and I found the stories had some nice messages, perhaps more accessible or relatable than Zhuangzi.   I have never been one for ritual - irrespective of what religion it is attached to though I have had some interesting experiences of energy in temples and churches (seemed non denominational to me though)

[Cobie]

6 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

… In actuality some of these concepts were not historically limited to Daoism showing up in the Ru and Esoteric Buddhist beliefs  as well.  …

Exactly, the big 3 religions over time have greatly influenced each other.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Those interested in the Confucian, AKA Ruist, contribution to qigong may find the "Confucian Qigong" topic created by exorcist_1699 a useful introduction.  While it was created in 2008 before I joined Dao Bums in January 2009, I didn't notice it until a post in 2013, after that the OP and I made some interesting posts.  At some point I will have to post on why the "Taoist Yoga" book should have been call Confucian Yoga, but that is a more complex project than I have time for now.

 

On 8/17/2008 at 10:15 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

Same as Taoist and Buddhist qi gong , Confucian qi gong is another important school in the Chinese tradition . Instead of starting from emptiness (Buddhist ) or jing (Taoist ), the Confucians starts from morals. Capable of transforming people's moral drive ( e.g, courage to rescue the people in danger , the determination to stand out and criticize all those evils...etc ,) into qi , hold it and expand it , is the main characteristics of the Confucian way.

 

The upgrade of your moral level will enhance the power of your qi ; a good man is also a very powerful man .

 

What in the West is only handled by philosophy and religion , and, always entangled by those philosophical and theological reasoning , morals , when being put in the hands of the Confucians , are used for initiating qi .

 

Happy reading,

 

ZYD

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Those interested in the Confucian, AKA Ruist, contribution to qigong may find the "Confucian Qigong" topic created by exorcist_1699 a useful introduction.  While it was created in 2008 before I joined Dao Bums in January 2009, I didn't notice it until a post in 2013, after that the OP and I made some interesting posts.  At some point I will have to post on why the "Taoist Yoga" book should have been call Confucian Yoga, but that is a more complex project than I have time for now.

 

 

Happy reading,

 

ZYD

 

That it is very interesting, but what's the actual method?

[Apech]

I think both the DDJ and Chuang Tzu are helpful to read but I am unsure that they are really the core texts that we are led to believe.  Although there is some dispute aas to whether it is Daoist at all I think that understanding the changes (Yi Jing/I Ching) is the most important step in getting close to what the Dao is all about.

 

Perhaps I should have put this in Unpopular Opinions?

 

 

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think both the DDJ and Chuang Tzu are helpful to read but I am unsure that they are really the core texts that we are led to believe.  Although there is some dispute aas to whether it is Daoist at all I think that understanding the changes (Yi Jing/I Ching) is the most important step in getting close to what the Dao is all about.

 

Perhaps I should have put this in Unpopular Opinions?

 

 

 

I've never been able to make any sense of that book.

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I've never been able to make any sense of that book.

Then you will never leave the temple grasshopper.

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:07 AM, Maddie said:

I started off on my path via qigong/Taoism and like many westerners I assumed the two were practically synonymous. Then I discovered Taoism differed drastically depending upon whom you asked. 

     If you asked many westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy. If you asked someone from China or Taiwan the answer tended to differ drastically being that Taoism was doing ceremonies at a Taoist temple. To be honest I didn't like this because it seemed "too religious". 

    To further complicate matters since I first got into all of this when I was a history major in college, I asked my eastern studies professor about what Taoism is and she made it sound like a philosophy of reading and studying the TTC. 

    To this day I still don't really know what Taoism really is or is supposed to be. Honestly it was largely due to this confusion amongst other things that caused me to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

 So that being said what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

 

To me its a philosophy and an attitude that I 'practice' .  Its an approach to life  and its also in a way a basis of practicing Magick .. you work with the forces  eg , every Aussie kid of my era was taught never to try to swim back directly to shore when carried out to sea in a rip , swim with it or across it , wait, do not panic ,  the current might even circle around and deliver you back to the beach .

 

In Magick, a ritual operation should include the right astrological timing , a 'tale wind' .  Of course, all this requires a knowledge of natural forces and how things work . A few times I have had to cross the flooded river here , which can be extremely dangerous , its not a matter of just throwing yourself in and going with the flow until you get to the other side  , one must be aware of the location  and the resultant force of  upwellings,  sucking down vortexes , surface signs of hidden objects , calm places , raging places , dangerous areas of the riverbanks , safe places of exists ....

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:15 AM, Maddie said:

 

I feel like this is the fastest satisfactory answer to a question I've ever experienced on a thread lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....

 

Oh, wait ...

 

 

' Actually now I feel like I understand Taoism even less than before."

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Nungali

[Cobie]

25 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I've never been able to make any sense of that book.

Neither have I.  

 

[Apech]

20 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Neither have I.  

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Apech