Taoism according to.....

[Nungali]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:25 AM, ChiDragon said:

In the Chinese mind, there was such thing as Taoism. However, the term was created by Westerner and was assumed it is a Tao religion. It doesn't distinguish the difference between the study of the Tao Te Ching and the Tao religion.

The scholars who study the Tao philosophy of Laotze(老子) called it 道學. If I can invent a term for it, then, I wound call it Taology.
The religious part of Taoism is called 道教. In the Chinese language, a character 教 was added at the end of another character to indicate that is a religion sect. The common English translation of 道教 was referred as Taoism and ignored the scholarly part.

The philosophy of Laotze(Taology) is based on his famous patterned term Wu Wei, 無為. Wu Wei is translated as "let nature take its course". The philosophy behind it is do not take action interfere with nature. For that said, one was asked not to force thing to happen but let it happen by itself. For example, if the son wants to be an artist, then, the father should not ask the son to become a doctor. I know a true story that a son committed suicide after he got his degree in dentistry. It was because his father won't let him to be an artist. If the father practiced the Tao philosophy, he would have had let his son to become what he wants to be. This is what the practice of the Tao philosophy  is all about.

 

Indian guy ... complaining ;   "  My parents wanted me to become a doctor , but I didnt want to ... I am very happy being a dentist !  Mum, Dad , I said to them ... you should let me follow my own path, besides ,  you have 5 sons altogether .... surely   4 doctors in the family is enough for you ? " 

 

I loved you example .

 

A principle of bringing up children  ( subsequent to our 'baptism rite ' , which is really parental education  ) " Build not a pen for a shark nor a pool for a goat ."

 

I feel this has been and endless problem for some .  I remember an early proclivity  of mine was towards ' window dressing ' - I watched a department store guy arranging a display and I declared 'Thats what I want to do when I grow up ' .... but parents where horrified ( back then it was assumed to be a 'homosexual thing '  and they feared little Nungers was off to hell. I was ruched off to have  emergency ' career guidance '  and after some strange tests they where informed I would make a good shop assistant .

 

Well, now I can design an interior  with harmony of space  form and color, design a building  with blue prints and build a model of it .

 

 

Spoiler

People walk into my outside wet room  ( my ' feral art deco rain forest sheik' style     ;   river stone  floor tiles for the river bed , mottled green ripple and crackle multi shade  imported Spanish subway tiles ,  for the river water . An accent strip of alternating long   silver moonstone and crystal tiles for the river surface , more green tiles and a some hugely polished select grain contrast white mahogany  ( with 6 coats of sanding and lacquer ) art deco    fixtures , slot drain ,   extra boost hot water with pressure booster , and glass on the front and 1/2 either side to give views out to rain forest and down the valley while showering .  people go  WOW  , who did this     

One person asked if they could use it for an advert they making for shower products ... its out there somewhere on Instagram or one of those things I have nothing to do with .

 

Currently I am designing a  'shouse' * for a friend based on the Golden Mean Rectangle proportions , that  is designed to be able to made in stages : essential dwelling first , that allows future development  and extensions as money is made available over time.

 

* a shouse is a  simple shed (away from things and nosy neighbors  and building inspectors )  that the building inspector can approve .... but over time actually turns into a house .     

   

[Maddie]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

You need an IQ to read it.

🔥🔥🔥 burn

Edited November 19, 2023 by Maddie

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

🔥🔥🔥 burn

oh I deleted it cos it was meant as a joke but came across a bit harsh !!!

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly, the big 3 religions over time have greatly influenced each other.

 

Or even have the same root in antiquity .

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I could literally summarize decades of research, study and practice into a hefty, but very informative book, but for now the following reply is the best that I can do.

 

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

4 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Those interested in the Confucian, AKA Ruist, contribution to qigong may find the "Confucian Qigong" topic created by exorcist_1699 a useful introduction.  While it was created in 2008 before I joined Dao Bums in January 2009, I didn't notice it until a post in 2013, after that the OP and I made some interesting posts.  At some point I will have to post on why the "Taoist Yoga" book should have been call Confucian Yoga, but that is a more complex project than I have time for now.

 

 

Happy reading,

 

ZYD

 

That it is very interesting, but what's the actual method?

 

As I noted in my post I don't have the time to bring everything together at this time and thinking through all the source I might cite I decided that the one following this one giving the reference, was the best that I could do:

 

On 9/3/2013 at 1:45 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

On 9/3/2013 at 10:33 AM, ChiDragon said:

I have never heard of such thing as Confucian Qi Gong but I will hear somebody else's input......!!!

 

In The Art of Chi Kung by Wong Kiew Kit (Element Books, 1993) there is a short section on Confucian "Chi Kung".

 

 

On 9/5/2013 at 12:20 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

On page 110 of the book I cited about Confucian 'Qigong' there is a poem by Ming Dynasty Confucian poet, Gao Panlong:

 

Quote

Silent Sitting is not from Tao or Chan. We developed our art from sages wise.
Subduing emotions, righteous heart is born. Cosmic energy swells ere thoughts arise. Ours can be explained by ordinary means. There's no mystery nor supernatural way. When one day the supreme truth you see Enlightenment is natural you'll surely say. The infinite becomes clear and still.
No other way to accomplish this skill.
The cosmos has pulsated since ancient time. The sun and moon up the sky still climb. No need for elixir made by saints
Nor talks of the void by the wise.
Where our Confucian secret lies
Is before thoughts and feelings arise.

(The Art of Chi Kung by Wong Kiew Kit, Element Books, 1993, p. 110, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Silent sitting is one of the primary forms of Confucian self-cultivation. The poet wants to make the point that it is not borrowed from other traditions, but is native to the the Confucian 'Dao'. The last two lines reference the teachings of the Zhongyong on Zhong, as the root of personal and cosmic existence:

 

Quote

喜、怒、哀、樂之未發、謂之中。發而皆中節、謂之和。中也者、天下之大本也。和也者、天下之達道也。致中和、天地位焉、萬物育焉。

 

When joy, anger, sorrow and pleasure have not yet arisen, it is called the Mean (中 centerness, equilibrium). When they arise to their appropriate levels, it is called “harmony” 和. The Mean is the great root of all-under-heaven. “Harmony” is the penetration of the Way through all-under-heaven. When the Mean and Harmony are actualized, Heaven and Earth are in their proper positions, and the myriad things are nourished.

(Charles Muller, http://www.acmuller.net/con-dao/docofmean.html, Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Muller's translation is very good and anyone who wants to get some idea about the depth and profundity of Confucian doctrine will find this a good place to start.

 

Which taken in the context of these two:

 

On 11/17/2023 at 7:48 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Exorcist 1699 has, as usual brought, up an excellent point here:

 

On 11/16/2023 at 9:10 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

We can initialize  and refine this  fundamental qi  to certain degree  by herbs, needles  , our hands , some postures and our minds , however,  the pure and most powerful one  we can get to reverse the life's proceeding  is by attaining   a no-Mind .  A no-Mind is just something spiritual,  empty and pure , free of  the effects from our drives ( say sex) , emotions( anger, jealousy..etc) and  ideas ( mind locked in a chain of concepts ) , therefore it gets  the character same as the fundamental qi 's ,  which  makes our cultivation simple and easy

 

This state of "no mind" is the real basis of Qi cultivation, and the means by which one discovers:

 

On 1/28/2009 at 3:48 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

See Charles Luk Taoist Yoga, p. 4, '...the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolized by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen); the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming), and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality.'

 

This experience is the real beginning of Qi cultivation and without it one is wasting ones time.  There is evidence in the Neiye that this experience was known in China as early as the Fourth Century BCE, and probably earlier.

 

ZYD

 

at least points in the right direction.  It took a lot of time too whittle the possibilities down to this, and for right now I don't have time to post more.  As a final note I should say that Gao Panlong is not just a poet, but a respected Confucian scholar who who wrote some very important works.

 

ZYD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

20 minutes ago, Maddie said:

🔥🔥🔥 burn

 

I told you that cat had a nasty look in its eyes . 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Nungali

[wandelaar]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:07 PM, Maddie said:

I started off on my path via qigong/Taoism and like many westerners I assumed the two were practically synonymous. Then I discovered Taoism differed drastically depending upon whom you asked. 

     If you asked many westerners Taoism was qigong or internal alchemy. If you asked someone from China or Taiwan the answer tended to differ drastically being that Taoism was doing ceremonies at a Taoist temple. To be honest I didn't like this because it seemed "too religious". 

    To further complicate matters since I first got into all of this when I was a history major in college, I asked my eastern studies professor about what Taoism is and she made it sound like a philosophy of reading and studying the TTC. 

    To this day I still don't really know what Taoism really is or is supposed to be. Honestly it was largely due to this confusion amongst other things that caused me to drift towards Buddhism eventually.

 

 So that being said what is Taoism, and how does one practice it?

 

You seem to think that there is a true Taoism, a set of practices and doctrines that forms the correct answer to the question "What is Taoism?" But you could as well ask "What is Christianity?" and then go around in different places and countries and ask a lot of people who identify as Christians. The answers you will get are bound to be very diverse. And this is only to be expected given that the religion in question has been around for millennia and has flourished in different cultures. Christianity, Taoism, etc. are only somewhat vague first labels. For more precision you have to specify what form of Taoism you want to study and/or practice. Only then will you get more precise and consistent answers.

Edited November 20, 2023 by wandelaar

[Cobie]

33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Or even have the same root in antiquity .

Any info?

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Then you will never leave the temple grasshopper.

 

i have no idea what that refers to, but it too probably merits🔥🔥🔥 burn and removal.

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Cobie

[Apech]

48 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

i have no idea what that refers to, but it too probably merits🔥🔥🔥 burn and removal.

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

On 20/11/2023 at 10:28 AM, Cobie said:

Any info?

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Nungali

[Cobie]

Sigh.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Cobie

[Sleepy Bluejay]

To me the "Tao" means the way of nature and the "great Tao" is the way of all things.

Taoism, to me, is the study of the great Tao.

 

Do not get it confused with science! Science means the study of the natural world and doesn't include the study of spirituality and occultism.

Tao = science and philosophy.

Great Tao = Science, philosophy, spirituality, occultism, etc.

[Sanity Check]

Taoism is system of metaphysical ideology and practice.

 

It can invoke things like ancestor worship and supernatural belief.

 

It can also encompass belief in metaphysical objects like the sorcerer's stone. 

 

It is generally not spoken of, as the world may not yet be ready for it.

 

Unlike other religions, most taoists (I think) do not want a spotlight on them or attention.

[Daniel]

My vote?

 

Daoism is a way of life, a way of viewing life and reality, a way of understanding success and failure and what produces them. 

 

Because life is diverse, daoism is diverse.  Because life is evolving, daosim is evolving.  Because life is all inclusive, daoism is all inclusive.   

 

If daoism is all-inclusive, then, daoism includes all ways of life. 

 

If it is a way of life that includes all ways of life, then, it is not only a way life.  It is the "no-way way-of-life".

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Daniel

[tao.te.kat]

>It is the "no-way way-of-life".

 

Wu Wei of life (sorry, bad joke)

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, tao.te.kat said:

>It is the "no-way way-of-life".

 

Wu Wei of life (sorry, bad joke)

 

No problem!  If what I wrote inspired your participation, that makes me happy.

[tao.te.kat]

15 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

No problem!  If what I wrote inspired your participation, that makes me happy.

 

Wisdom!

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sigh.

 

 

 

 

I am assuming your sigh is due to the issue that   I   wanted clarity on   if  'THESE  three religions '  (  "Daoism showing up in the Ru and Esoteric Buddhist beliefs  ")  where considered by you as  " THE  big   three religions " .

 

" Three of the world's major religions -- the monotheist traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- were all born in the Middle East and are all inextricably linked to one another. Christianity was born from within the Jewish tradition, and Islam developed from both Christianity and Judaism. "

 

and

 

https://www.religionlink.com/reporting-on-religion/a-roundup-of-religions/the-big-three-christianity-judaism-and-islam/

 

Since I didnt get that clarity , I assumed you did mean THE three big religions as that is what you wrote .

 

I am sorry if my attempt at getting clarity  and  answering your question , writing out all that , finding the references and putting them up for you  caused you to sigh .

 

Unless it was a sigh of pleasure  ?      

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Nungali

[Cobie]

@Nungali pls read a thread to get the context. If you follow the quotes back, it’s clear my question was only referring to the big 3 Chinese religions.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:07 PM, wandelaar said:

For more precision you have to specify what form of Taoism you want to study and/or practice. Only then will you get more precise and consistent answers.

Taoism is not as clear as the other religions. No one knew it has two aspects to begin with. It was assumed that it was a religion by westerners.

[ChiDragon]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:57 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

In The Art of Chi Kung by Wong Kiew Kit (Element Books, 1993) there is a short section on Confucian "Chi Kung".

That was only one man's opinion. Even though it was written in a book, but it was not recognized by the native scholars. However, I still have no idea what Confucian Chi Kung is? Chi Kung is a form of breathing exercise. Confucians may practice it, but the natives didn't call it Confucian Chi Kung.

Edited November 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

16 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly, the big 3 religions over time have greatly influenced each other.

It was mentioned here before. During the Tang Dynasty, the three religions were having major conflicts. Hence, one of the emperors have ordered to them get together and iron out their differences. Hereinafter, the Buddhist became sharing the same deities of the Taoist in their beliefs. BTW Confucian or Ruist is not a religion. But they do worship Confucius as their deity.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Nungali pls read a thread to get the context. If you follow the quotes back, it’s clear my question was only referring to the big 3 Chinese religions.

 

 

 

Okay ... sorry , I will delete it

[stirling]

On 11/18/2023 at 11:37 AM, Cobie said:

Exactly. 
“The distinction between so-called “philosophical Daoism” and so-called “religious Daoism” is a modern Western fiction …”

https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf 

 

Thanks for that. Very interesting.

 

So if:

 

Quote

Qigong is not Daoist. Qigong refers to a modern Chinese health and longevity movement aimed at national upbuilding. It combines traditional Chinese health and longevity practices with modern Chinese concerns and a Western scientific paradigm. Some of these derive from earlier Daoist Yangsheng 養生 (Nourishing Life) practices. There are also many different types of Qigong, including Buddhist, Daoist, medical, and martial. Most Daoist Qigong incorporates internal alchemy (neidan 内丹) methods. - (from the PDF) 

 

...is true, is it also true of all other cultivation method traditions... or? Does Daoism initially predate alchemical/cultivation traditions? How early are the Yangsheng practices, and do they come before or after the Tao te Ching, etc.? I don't remember seeing mentions of cultivation in it. I have never been sure of the link between the classic Daoist literature and the cultivation traditions. Wish there was a fun, clear, family tree for this. Maybe there is?

 

Another question:

 

If Mitchell et. al. and their translations are rubbish, what translations aren't?  Thanks in advance.