An abrahamic sub-forum

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

From a historic point of view, i think its influence can not be undetstated. You can not talk about «the western mind» without mentioning christianity, even If the person is not a beliver personally. Same goes for islam in the mid east and, i assume, for judaism and eastern belief. 
«I am the alpha and omega»

 

edit: speaking for my self, i grew up in a nation where only 30% belive in god and had zero dogma pushed down my throat, but the Christ narrative is still ingrained in me.

Edited November 24, 2023 by NaturaNaturans

[liminal_luke]

I´m not opposed to an abrahamic subforum, but I do think we´ve got a good Taoist thing going here and should safegaurd our slightly countercultural vibe.  Would I be here if the forum was called Bums in Christ?  Probably not.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

First my thanks to Nungali for his defense of me here:

 

19 hours ago, Nungali said:

Also in defence of Donald, his angle is   historically factual .... if one cares to follow up what he writes, study the references and drop one's 'self loaded prejudices' . And I dont think anyone has sufficient value here  to call him out like that , unless you have actually done the research he points towards . 

 

Second in regard to this:

 

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

So, you include GD type kabbalah   as within Abrahamic tradition ?    At least one person here does not ... well, they seemed to agree at first, then got confused then accused it of some type of 'cultural theft ' , not original etc etc . 

 

In the widest possible sense of "Abrahamic", but as i emphasized below the context in which it is interpreted does affect things:

 

On 11/23/2023 at 12:30 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

I have not only theoretical, but practical experience with "mystical Jewish tradtions", AKA, Qabalah, albeit within the framework of Western magical practice as developed within the Order of the Golden Dawn, version of Qabalah which I was later to Humorously refer to as "Wasp Qabalah" because of its social milieu consisting of White-Anglo Saxon Protestants.

 

As I mentioned in the post that I quoted from, this took place in my late teens, probably eighteen and closer to nineteen, but I am not sure at this time and after all of these years I don't have the records that I kept of such work anymore.  The experiments were done within the frame work of Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah and Gareth Knight's Practical Guide to Qablistic Symbolism.  The were simple and used only the material available, but avoided using the aspects of Kether that were traditional, such as the divine name, archangel etc., and avoided such things as Tarot cards etc., the attributions of which, I did not completely trust at the time.  So they were as much within a more traditional form of practice than I might have done some years later.  I will say that once I actually got a copy of Regardie's Golden Dawn and had a chance to examine the Golden Dawn system in detail, i was very much impressed by its creativity and scope and consider it a truly great achievement.

 

Finally, I think an important part of creating this forum would be to define it's scope as being related to an examination of the historical development and influence, that it is not intended to be any kind of "my religion is better than yours" free for all, much less a platform for recruitment.  Thinking about this brought back to me the memory of how much trouble there was when I first joined with some very over enthusiastic Buddhist who would span and interrupt any thread dealing with Daoism or Western traditions, condemning them and preaching the "truth" of Buddhism, especially Tibetan.  People tend to forget that Buddhism is also a very "evangelical" religion.  There was also the spamming of Mopai advocates which was so bad that discussion had to be completely banned.

 

ZYD

[Taomeow]

According to the British birth registration data, in 2021, Muhammad was the most popular baby boys' name in four out of nine English regions. 

An Islamic forum anyone?..  

No takers?..

You aren't thinking of your future.  

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

55 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

According to the British birth registration data, in 2021, Muhammad was the most popular baby boys' name in four out of nine English regions. 

An Islamic forum anyone?..  

No takers?..

You aren't thinking of your future.  

 

In answer to this I will repeat what I said earlier:

 

On 11/23/2023 at 9:29 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

while I can understand that many people here would have no active interest in these proposed areas of study, I think that it is important for them to have a basic understanding of the origin and development of the Abrahamic religions so that they will be in a good position to not be fooled into taking them as being true and thus to be given serious consideration.  As examples I will note that last summer we had a former member, whom I remember as being quite interested in Daoism, who had been converted to some form of fundamentalist Christianity and wanted to share the "Good News" with us for the sake of our salvation.  Had this person been well informed about the history and development of Christianity this would not have happened, and while back we had member who came to Dao Bums advocating Sufism, which is little more than a pseudo mystical smiley face with which Islam seeks converts.  Fortunately there were members here, including myself, who were in a position to deal with his incursion and he left.  I view a sub forum dealing with this subject as like a clinic to "inoculate" Dao Bums against the possibility of becoming fooled by the fallacies that are promulgated by Christianity and Islam.  (Emphasis added, ZYD)

 

Ignorance is what allows these religions to spread, knowledge can stop them, if it doesn't come to late.

 

ZYD

[wandelaar]

It's seldom knowledge (or lack thereof) that persuades people to choose a certain religion but more often upbringing and/or feeling. I have had numerous discussions with true believers and it's always the same: they believe because to them it feels right, not because they know it's right. I also work as a volunteer in the books department a thrift shop and there are almost no customers who are interested in the critical evaluation of religions, conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and the like but always a whole lot of customers who are uncritically engaged in and want to buy books about religions, new age, and pseudo-scientific subjects. Add to that the current vogue of postmodern relativism and the current political disregard for truth and for expert knowledge and you see the hopelessness of the rationalist attempts to inject some reason into our post-truth era. Besides not all forms of Christianity are equally bad, seeing Jesus as an inspiring figure doesn't automatically make one into an idiot. And there are also some other christian figures who are worthy of respect. It's mainly the fundamentalist believers who are the problem, because they often (but not always) want to force their own intolerant norms, rules and idea's on others.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Besides not all forms of Christianity are equally bad, seeing Jesus as an inspiring figure doesn't automatically make one into an idiot. And there are also some other christian figures who are worthy of respect. It's mainly the fundamentalist believers who are the problem, because they often (but not always) want to force their own intolerant norms, rules and idea's on others.

I appreciate this. Even tho i see him as mostly a mythological being, i think his sayings are beautifull and the narrative of forgiveness, sacrifice and ressuraction as powerfull. I also belive in God as in a singualar, transcendent deity. The trinity is a good concept aswell.
If that makes me Christian i do not know. I think it is undeniable that the church is a hoax and all that, and all my knowledge of the bible is just what i have picked up naturally by living in a traditional western country. When it comes to the more lulu part of scripture i just throw them in the bin.  But in the bigger picture, how can you hate a guy who said (well, he probally did not, but at least it is attributed to him,) said stuff like this:

Spoiler

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these

 

If your leaders tell you, “Look, the kingdom is in the sky,” then the birds of the heavens will precede you. If they say to you, “It’s in the sea,” then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are the children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you dwell in poverty and you are poverty.

 

I know barley anything about judaism or islam tho. This might just be my perfection, but i get the sense they are often reluctant to talk about their faith with outsider.

 

————

and by all means, no pressure, If you intend this to be a eastern forum that is of course fully up to you.

[Taomeow]

If it was a simple matter of voting for or against, I'd vote no.  A mere thread in the General section would suffice. 

 

A few years ago I got interested in the Sumerian origins of, not just Abrahamic religions but a helluva lot of Indo-European civilization, and started a thread on the subject, which was plenty enough.  (For anyone interested, it's still there.)  Considering it is far less likely to cause tensions and inflame passions today due to Sumerians themselves having disappeared, unlike an Abrahamic discussion which would be populated by individuals exposed in real life, one way or the other, to the irreconcilable differences between these three major branches of the Abrahamic tradition, methinks dedicating a thread or three to them, for those interested, would work better.   

Edited November 25, 2023 by Taomeow

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

For anyone interested, it's still there.) 

🙋‍♂️ link?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Besides not all forms of Christianity are equally bad, seeing Jesus as an inspiring figure doesn't automatically make one into an idiot. And there are also some other christian figures who are worthy of respect. It's mainly the fundamentalist believers who are the problem, because they often (but not always) want to force their own intolerant norms, rules and idea's on others.

I appreciate this. Even tho i see him as mostly a mythological being, i think his sayings are beautifull and the narrative of forgiveness, sacrifice and ressuraction as powerfull. I also belive in God as in a singualar, transcendent deity. The trinity is a good concept aswell.
If that makes me Christian i do not know. I think it is undeniable that the church is a hoax and all that, and all my knowledge of the bible is just what i have picked up naturally by living in a traditional western country. When it comes to the more lulu part of scripture i just throw them in the bin.  But in the bigger picture, how can you hate a guy who said (well, he probally did not, but at least it is attributed to him,) said stuff like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?Are not even the tax collectors doing that?47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these

 

If your leaders tell you, “Look, the kingdom is in the sky,” then the birds of the heavens will precede you. If they say to you, “It’s in the sea,” then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are the children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you dwell in poverty and you are poverty.

 

I know barley anything about judaism or islam tho. This might just be my perfection, but i get the sense they are often reluctant to talk about their faith with outsider.

 

Lucky for you and everyone else here, I did all the research years ago, as for an interesting model of a historical Jesus, try out the link in this post of mine:

 

On 10/3/2019 at 11:12 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Aside from that, given your Christian background and your efforts to free yourself from early conditioning related to it, you might find this Blog:

 

Was Jesus a Magician?

 

Both informative and inspiring.  It is the Blog of Dr. Helen Ingram and is based on and an exposition of her PhD thesis, Dragging Down Heaven: Jesus as Magician and Manipulator of Spirits in the Gospels. I read the book that inspired it, Morton Smith's Jesus the Magician in the late Seventies and found it informative and very suggestive, but not completely convincing, it became one among many possible accounts of a possible historical Jesus, but Dr. Ingram's thesis is a much more convincing discussion and based on it I would say that the notion that Jesus, if there was a historical Jesus, was very likely a "magician" is far more likely than any of the other alternatives that I have read.

 

I hope that the above is helpful to you.

 

I hope this is helpful to you and anyone else who may read it.

 

ZYD

[silent thunder]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

If it was a simple matter of voting for or against, I'd vote no.  A mere thread in the General section would suffice. 

+1 from me.  The conversations that have cropped up on occasion, repeat the same few points for a few comments, then lose inertia.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Why dont we make a poll, so the admins can get a sense for the demand? 🤨 for no and ❤️ for yes or something.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

27 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

Lucky for you and everyone else here, I did all the research years ago, as for an interesting model of a historical Jesus, try out the link in this post of mine:

 

 

I hope this is helpful to you and anyone else who may read it.

 

ZYD

Thank you

[thelerner]

I'm Jewish, historically I tend to cringe at some of the comments when 'Abrahamic' threads pop up.  Still, if it happens organically, it's fine, I don't think we need any kind of subsection or anything.  

[wandelaar]

I see pro's and con's and they exactly balance out. I will let others decide for whom it does matter.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I see pro's and con's and they exactly balance out. I will let others decide for whom it does matter.

You seem to be an admin, am i wrong? Is there no possibility for a poll? 
And again, it was only an impulsive suggestion from my part, it is really not that important to me

[wandelaar]

No, I'm not an administrator. Funny you thought so.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

No, I'm not an administrator. Funny you thought so.

You got that pondus haha

[wandelaar]

It comes with age, having less energy, slowing down, accepting things as they are, ... 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

22 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

It comes with age, having less energy, slowing down, accepting things as they are, ... 

Hmm… i am struggling finding the balance between the «fighter,» and «saint» archetype.

I know that there are aspects of life id like to improve, but i dont want to wage a civil war against myself either.

[wandelaar]

It's probably more natural to start as a "fighter" for whatever cause when you are still young and ambitious, and then gradually evolve into a more "saint-like" figure when you get old. The fighter will gradually go into retirement, and the saint will gradually become more prominent. There's no need to force the issue.

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

🙋‍♂️ link?

 

Here it is.

 

 

[old3bob]

some thing go thump in the night...(or day)

[Geof Nanto]

I’ll add my voice to the no camp. This forum already has a very broad focus and discussion of Abrahamic traditions in the way  @NaturaNaturans suggests already occurs as the occasional General Discussion thread. That arrangement has catered sufficiently for interest in those traditions in the past and I see no reason to change it.    

 

More than this, I consider stretching the focus of this forum further by giving a dedicated space to Abrahamic traditions would be detrimental to its underlying identity as a place to explore Eastern Traditions, and detrimental to our loose sense of community as people who do not hold to those dominant monotheistic theologies of Christianity and Islam which more than half the world’s population identify as. Those traditions already have a strong voice, no need to elevate their status here.  
 

[thelerner]

7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

It comes with age, having less energy, slowing down, accepting things as they are, ... 

same, but I skipped over accepting things as they are and jumped to not giving a damn

 

6 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm… i am struggling finding the balance between the «fighter,» and «saint» archetype.

 

hmnn perhaps a Paladin  ,

a hard class to play correctly.