Esoteric vs Non-Esoteric Meditation Traditions

[stirling]

1 minute ago, steve said:

I did and edited it out somewhere along the line, either before or after it hit the page…

 

Ah... you know. It happens.   I am very grateful to have the Bon teachings in the world, which I consider completely valid and deeply valuable. My understanding is that there is a lot of crossover where these two great traditions grew together over time, in the same way that I think Buddhism and Daoism did. Nice to have an articulate practitioner here. 

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

  I am very grateful to have the Bon teachings in the world, which I consider completely valid and deeply valuable

 

Me too, and to be clear please don’t conflate steveontheinternet’s opinions with Bön teachings. More like a weak tea of the teachings, lately a bit tepid even, made in a glass that could use a bit of deep cleaning… 

 

… but then again, what is there to polish?

 

😶‍🌫️

 

🤣

[doc benway]

To be a bit more wordy…

 

The primary reason no one receives anything from a teacher is that when it happens, the giver and receiver cannot be, and have never been, what you thought they were or it is not what you think it is.

 

 

[stirling]

21 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Me too, and to be clear please don’t conflate steveontheinternet’s opinions with Bön teachings. More like a weak tea of the teachings, lately a bit tepid even, made in a glass that could use a bit of deep cleaning… 

 

… but then again, what is there to polish?

 

😶‍🌫️

 

🤣

 

You are too hard on yourself.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

You are too hard on yourself.

 

One of my specialties… occupational and cultural hazard! 

[doc benway]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks @steve ... I think there are some similarities in the approach of Buddhism and Bon but maybe some differences also.  In the practice of Guru Yoga (which I think is tricky for Westerners to grasp or accept (see below)) the great Jamgon Kongtrul stresses that it is important that the practitioner has 'an unshakable conviction that his guru really is the Buddha'. (This is from a book called the Torch of Certainty the subject of which is the ngondro.)  Guru Yoga is the fourth and final stage of ngondro.

 

Yes, I agree. That is in the Bön teachings as well and I think I certainly did not emphasize it in my ramble.

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Similarly to what you wrote all gurus are understood to be Vajradhara - a deified form of Buddhahood itself - and Vajradhara is seen as the head or origin of the lineage of teachings and as the present teacher of the lineage.  All teachers in that they are teaching are Vajradhara.  And it is from Vajradhara that you receive the four empowerments or transmissions.  This is in the Kagyu school, in other schools this figure would be replaced by Guru Rinpoche perhaps or Samantabhadra.

 

But to say that the source of blessings is solely a disembodied eternal buddha image, rather than the living master, would be a kind of watering down of the key idea.  And would side step the difficulty of this practice - which is very challenging and also dangerous.  It's really in this 'zone' of teacher / lama relationship which great conceptual and actual difficulties arise.  As all teachers without exception are also humans with faults - how on earth are you to see them as living Buddhas? and if you don't see them as living Buddhas how do you receive the blessings of same?

 

The source of blessings is not a disembodied eternal Buddha image.

If I gave that impression, my apologies.

The source is the Nature of Mind, Kuntuzangpo itself, and those blessings come through the lineage which is said to be unbroken in Bön. It comes from the teachings and from our connection to the lineage and our teacher. I think NOT visualizing our own human (and fallible) teacher during Guru Yoga and visualizing an image which represents all of the teachers of the lineage is one way to avoid the dangers and challenges you indicate. The other thing I'll mention is that my teacher is on the progressive side and is comfortable adjusting the presentation for the Western audience, for better or for worse. I personally don't think it's healthy to pretend that the teacher is a living Buddha. It may or may not be true and it can be a trap. For me it is enough to know that my teacher is a dedicated practitioner and holder of the lineage who expresses the fruition of the teachings through his words and actions. It is enough to emulate that without getting stuck on the idea that he, and I, need to be Buddhas. If I truly believe the teacher is the Buddha, it may support a deeper conviction, devotion, and practice but I don't consider that to be essential (and yes, this is s-o-t-i publicly disagreeing with the masters again!  ).

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I don't present myself as an expert in this field or pretend to understand it properly.  But I thought it important to make this point in the light of what you posted.

 

I appreciate that and you have been beacon of knowledge for me over the years so thank you!

[Apech]

58 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Yes, I agree. That is in the Bön teachings as well and I think I certainly did not emphasize it in my ramble.

 

 

The source of blessings is not a disembodied eternal Buddha image.

If I gave that impression, my apologies.

The source is the Nature of Mind, Kuntuzangpo itself, and those blessings come through the lineage which is said to be unbroken in Bön. It comes from the teachings and from our connection to the lineage and our teacher. I think NOT visualizing our own human (and fallible) teacher during Guru Yoga and visualizing an image which represents all of the teachers of the lineage is one way to avoid the dangers and challenges you indicate. The other thing I'll mention is that my teacher is on the progressive side and is comfortable adjusting the presentation for the Western audience, for better or for worse. I personally don't think it's healthy to pretend that the teacher is a living Buddha. It may or may not be true and it can be a trap. For me it is enough to know that my teacher is a dedicated practitioner and holder of the lineage who expresses the fruition of the teachings through his words and actions. It is enough to emulate that without getting stuck on the idea that he, and I, need to be Buddhas. If I truly believe the teacher is the Buddha, it may support a deeper conviction, devotion, and practice but I don't consider that to be essential (and yes, this is s-o-t-i publicly disagreeing with the masters again!  ).

 

I don't think it is so much 'pretending' as 'acting as if' ... which is not quite the same thing.  My teacher once said to me of his teacher that 'I know he is just a Tibetan monk but I still think of him as the Dharmakaya'.  There is also a story told of a great practitioner who on achieving enlightenment through Guru Yoga looked back to see that his master, who he had regarded as a Buddha, still had several lifetimes to go through before he achieved awakening.  So the pupil was more advanced than the teacher!  Strange indeed.

 

58 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I appreciate that and you have been beacon of knowledge for me over the years so thank you!

 

That's very kind ... but I think I'm too dim to be a beacon

 

 

[Sahaja]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Yes, I agree. That is in the Bön teachings as well and I think I certainly did not emphasize it in my ramble.

 

 

The source of blessings is not a disembodied eternal Buddha image.

If I gave that impression, my apologies.

The source is the Nature of Mind, Kuntuzangpo itself, and those blessings come through the lineage which is said to be unbroken in Bön. It comes from the teachings and from our connection to the lineage and our teacher. I think NOT visualizing our own human (and fallible) teacher during Guru Yoga and visualizing an image which represents all of the teachers of the lineage is one way to avoid the dangers and challenges you indicate. The other thing I'll mention is that my teacher is on the progressive side and is comfortable adjusting the presentation for the Western audience, for better or for worse. I personally don't think it's healthy to pretend that the teacher is a living Buddha. It may or may not be true and it can be a trap. For me it is enough to know that my teacher is a dedicated practitioner and holder of the lineage who expresses the fruition of the teachings through his words and actions. It is enough to emulate that without getting stuck on the idea that he, and I, need to be Buddhas. If I truly believe the teacher is the Buddha, it may support a deeper conviction, devotion, and practice but I don't consider that to be essential (and yes, this is s-o-t-i publicly disagreeing with the masters again!  ).

 

 

I appreciate that and you have been beacon of knowledge for me over the years so thank you!

 Is there any connection between Sherab Chamma of Bon and Daoist Queen Mother of the West?  Had an interesting, very unexpected interaction with a painting  of Sherab Chamma  at the Lukhang exhibit that I don’t really understand. 

[Mark Foote]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:12 PM, Robin said:

 

What am I to make of other traditions where there is no guru yoga, and no telepathic transmission? Are they inferior? Do they offer a lesser kind of enlightenment?
 

 

My impression of Kobun Chino Otogawa, whom Shunryu Suzuki brought from Japan to set up the Tassajara monastery down in Big Sur, was that he was constantly demonstrating the teaching in his actions.  That I think is in keeping with what Gautama had to say, as reported in the Pali sermons:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.

 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:
 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.  

 

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.

 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

 

(A Way of Living)
 

 

In the fourth "trance", action in deed occasioned by "determinate thought" ceases.  That's not the cessation of action of deed, and Kobun was a master of the zazen that gets up and walks around (yes, zazen sometimes gets up and walks around, as he reminded his audience at S. F. Zen Center at the close of a lecture in the '80's).

Ok, that's not quite right--Kobun also said "nobody masters zazen".  Something in his actions was a constant teaching, that would be more correct.  I think that's consistent in Ch'an and Zen.

 

Quote

 

I've heard it said that these higher teachings were somehow given by Guatama Buddha as a kind of "silent aside" to those ready to receive them.
 

 

Ixnay on that one.  From the account of Gautama's final days:

 

I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. 

(DN 16 PTS: D ii 72 32; "Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha"; tr sister Vajira & Francis Story)

 

 

On the other hand, until a person experiences zazen in an action, it's impossible to believe.  As I wrote recently (with a quote from Kobun):

 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”:
 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.
 

(Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

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I'm torn. On the one hand I've been "sold" dzogchen by a couple of people I kinda sorta trust on these matters. On the other, there are a great many people practicing outside of this tradition with methods which require less "suspension of disbelief" or which I can more easily empirically validate, while at the same time recognizing that things beyond my current ability to comprehend or perceive may require a certain amount of faith to remain open to.

 

Does anyone here "feel me" on all this?
 

The teachings in the Pali Canon concern the cessation of habit or volition in action, in states of concentration, and everything that might be expected to surround that.  If you succeed as Gautama did in surpassing the foremost teachers of his day, and in arriving at the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, then you will likely see as he did that there is a chain of causation involved in suffering.  Even if you don't arrive at "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", but only at the cessation of "determinate thought" in (the activity of the body in) inhalation and exhalation, you can start to live the way of life that Gautama lived.  He recommended it:
 

… if cultivated and made much of, (the “intent concentration”) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too.

 

(SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society V p 285)

 

I think it was that way of living, which Gautama called "the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing" (Woodward's translation) or "the (mindfulness-)development that is mindfulness of inbreathing and outbreathing" (Horner's translation of Anapanasati), that Otogawa and Suzuki practiced:

 

To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.
 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?
 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. As to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.

 

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society Vol II p 108; Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”, above, rendered by Horner as “body, feelings, mind, and mental states”)

 

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained (in the four arisings of mindfulness), and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, 1st paragraph parenthetical added)

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Dedicated]

I like to see relationships between student and teacher as their own business. A private sacred interconnection we can be happy for them and inspired to recognise that dynamic in our lives past current or future 

[doc benway]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:34 PM, Sahaja said:

 Is there any connection between Sherab Chamma of Bon and Daoist Queen Mother of the West?  Had an interesting, very unexpected interaction with a painting  of Sherab Chamma  at the Lukhang exhibit that I don’t really understand. 

 

I don't know of any in particular but I don't know much about the history of Bön and its relationship to Daoism.

There certainly could be some connection. They both represent Queen and Mother aspects

When I look at the iconography and read a bit about Xiwangmu, I don't see many obvious similarities.

[Mark Foote]

23 hours ago, Dedicated said:

I like to see relationships between student and teacher as their own business. A private sacred interconnection we can be happy for them and inspired to recognise that dynamic in our lives past current or future 
 

That's very respectful.  My attitude toward teachers has been one of caution. 

Kobun Chino Otogawa once said, "take your time with the lotus".  Closest I came was a five day sesshin, but I could only sit 35 in the lotus (the periods were alternately 40 and 30, for the most part).  I really apologize to my seat mates, for having to revert to half or Burmese toward the end of the 40's, but I wanted to make my best effort.

Maybe I should have attended the L. A. Zen Center, sesshin periods there are 35, last I checked (except for an initial sitting of 50).  I guess the point I'm making is that I felt like there were issues I needed to overcome just to sit in the recommended posture for the standard period of time.  They were issues that the teachers really didn't address, so I figured I'd have to teach myself (somehow).

 

Come to find out, the teachers I admired, including Kobun, had been sitting since they were old enough to stand--in the lotus!  Kobun described wrestling with his brothers at age 5, in the lotus.  He said he could get in and out of the lotus without using his hands.  At the end of a seven day sesshin, which I only sat two days of, he said he never experienced pain in the lotus.  He felt funny telling his students how to approach the pain they had in their legs, since he didn't experience any.  For him, that sesshin was the third seven-day sesshin in a row.

I sit a sloppy half lotus for 25 minutes now, when I get up and before I go to bed.  That's usually long enough to arrive at "just sitting", action by virtue of the sense of place in awareness, from moment to moment.  

Some of the teachers out there make me wonder, but then again, I think they must practice "just sitting" more easily than I do--they just can't explain how. I can understand:  how do you express what it is that you do, when what you do is not "doing something"? 

Gautama was unique in the clarity of his explanation, though I've had to piece that together out of many volumes.  Teaching was the miracle he claimed.

 

 

 

 

[stirling]

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Kobun Chino Otogawa once said, "take your time with the lotus".  Closest I came was a five day sesshin, but I could only sit 35 in the lotus (the periods were alternately 40 and 30, for the most part).  I really apologize to my seat mates, for having to revert to half or Burmese toward the end of the 40's, but I wanted to make my best effort.

 

I've sat in that zendo with a number of Kobun's transmitted students and my experience was that they would ALL agree that it is fine to come in a little late (but sit just outside the zendo), fine to sit in a posture that allows you to be comfortable, even in a chair or on a bench (my late teacher finished her last sit there before her death laying on her side). Ian Forsberg (Kobun's student) called the sitting "family style" - recognizing the humanness we bring to our sitting, but the dedication it takes to just BE there. Remember, this is the middle-way! If you are sitting, and have taken your boddhisattva vow you are a hero, sitting for all beings.

 

You are too hard on yourself.

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Some of the teachers out there make me wonder, but then again, I think they must practice "just sitting" more easily than I do--they just can't explain how. I can understand:  how do you express what it is that you do, when what you do is not "doing something"?

 

If it is hard there is too much "I" sitting with you. You can "just sit" anywhere, at any time. Zazen can find you standing in the forest, riding a bike, or shaving your face. It is about 100% awake presence, and a relaxed body/mind (rupakaya). 

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama was unique in the clarity of his explanation, though I've had to piece that together out of many volumes.  Teaching was the miracle he claimed.

 

Suzuki said "This is it" because it is always right here, not just when you have the right place to sit, or the right body to sit in, or the right text to explain it. It isn't any of those things. If it is complicated you are not "actualizing the fundamental point". 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I've sat in that zendo with a number of Kobun's transmitted students and my experience was that they would ALL agree that it is fine to come in a little late (but sit just outside the zendo), fine to sit in a posture that allows you to be comfortable, even in a chair or on a bench (my late teacher finished her last sit there before her death laying on her side). Ian Forsberg (Kobun's student) called the sitting "family style" - recognizing the humanness we bring to our sitting, but the dedication it takes to just BE there. Remember, this is the middle-way! If you are sitting, and have taken your boddhisattva vow you are a hero, sitting for all beings.

 

You are too hard on yourself.

 

 

If it is hard there is too much "I" sitting with you. You can "just sit" anywhere, at any time. Zazen can find you standing in the forest, riding a bike, or shaving your face. It is about 100% awake presence, and a relaxed body/mind (rupakaya). 

 

 

Suzuki said "This is it" because it is always right here, not just when you have the right place to sit, or the right body to sit in, or the right text to explain it. It isn't any of those things. If it is complicated you are not "actualizing the fundamental point". 
 

"The fundamental point" is "one-pointedness of mind", a presence of mind with the placement of attention as the placement of attention shifts and moves (or doesn't!).  That presence allows action to be relinquished, "actualizing the fundamental point".
 

From a lecture by koun Franz:
 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. 

 

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

(No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6], Koun Franz)

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

"The fundamental point" is "one-pointedness of mind", a presence of mind with the placement of attention as the placement of attention shifts and moves (or doesn't!).  That presence allows action to be relinquished, "actualizing the fundamental point".

 

I disagree. One-pointedness is a tripitaka convention - ekaggata. This is not the same as a Zen practice, it comes from a different intention and viewpoint.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaggata

 

The fundamental point Dogen refers to is to "actualize" enlightenment in our practice. The way to do this is to rest in the nature of mind in our meditation without an object. Sitting with the mind quiet and still IS actualization of enlightenment.

 

I asked Ian Forsberg (Kobun student and brown robe) in dokusan during a sesshin, "What is the difference between the mind in shikantaza and enlightened mind?". His answer, "No difference". 

 

This is shikantaza, or "just sitting". In shikantaza there IS no object... it is no-pointed. This doesn't involve in contrived way of being or technique. It isn't anything like watching the breath, or focusing attention, it is taking in the entire field of experience and being present with it. 

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I disagree. One-pointedness is a tripitaka convention - ekaggata. This is not the same as a Zen practice, it comes from a different intention and viewpoint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaggata
 

 

 

I would disagree with all four of the opinions offered as definitions of "one-pointedness" on that Wikipedia page.  They are talking about a singular object of attention--koun Franz referred to that as the positive version of navel gazing.

Was koun Franz just kidding, when he spoke of allowing the mind to move away from the head?  

Why did Dogen write, "when you find your place where you are"? Doesn't everybody know the place where they are, right now?  Why should they need to "find their way at this moment"?

If mind and body are dropped, where is the place where I am?  That's the "one-point" of "one-pointedness", in my experience.  
 

 

Quote

 

 

The fundamental point Dogen refers to is to "actualize" enlightenment in our practice. The way to do this is to rest in the nature of mind in our meditation without an object. Sitting with the mind quiet and still IS actualization of enlightenment.
 

 

"Rest in the nature of mind without an object", I'll agree with that.  But, with the mind quiet and still?  Where is your mind, when your mind is quiet and still?  
 

 

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I asked Ian Forsberg (Kobun student and brown robe) in dokusan during a sesshin, "What is the difference between the mind in shikantaza and enlightened mind?". His answer, "No difference". 
 

 

I would say, yes and no.  When the fundamental point is actualized, there's practice, and the cessation of "doing something" that is shikantaza.  That's mostly what people regard as enlightenment, as far as I can tell.  What I read about in the Pali sermons is a cessation of "doing something" in feeling and perceiving, and a consequent insight in to the conditioned genesis of suffering.

I relate to the conditioned genesis that Gautama expounded, I definitely have lost "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' with regard to this consciousness-informed body", but understanding is not the experience of the cessation of "doing something" in feeling and perceiving.  

It's the clear action of mind in the absence of habit or volition that constitutes the experience underlying enlightenment, at least that's my reading of the sermons--I can't say that I've had the experience, and I venture to surmise neither has Ian, but the experience he has had is sufficient to live Gautama's way of living, if I understand it.

In Zen, what's important is to transmit the experience of a cessation of "doing something" in the action of the body (not the full Monty)--for that transmission, the Zen tradition famously doesn't rely on words:  

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)
 

 

Quote

 

This is shikantaza, or "just sitting". In shikantaza there IS no object... it is no-pointed. This doesn't involve in contrived way of being or technique. It isn't anything like watching the breath, or focusing attention, it is taking in the entire field of experience and being present with it. 
 

I agree that taking in the whole field and being present is the most of it.  What I find is:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

(ibid)

 

 

That is to say, Gautama's mindfulness, and the states of concentration he experienced, were the result of "the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention".  That's the beauty of it, to me.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

19 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I would disagree with all four of the opinions offered as definitions of "one-pointedness" on that Wikipedia page.  They are talking about a singular object of attention--koun Franz referred to that as the positive version of navel gazing.

 

Right. The teachings of the tripitaka and Zen are two very different traditions based on the same premises but taught by different buddhas from two VERY different "turnings of the wheel of dharma". These are two different approaches to the same problem, BOTH valid and internally consistent in their own traditions. In Vajrayana there is the practice of guru yoga, a visualization which includes merging with various buddhas. Is this a valid practice? I think so... it makes sense when explained in the context of its own tradition. Did the buddha teach it, and does it really fit in the tripitaka suttas or practices? I don't think so, but it is completely in keeping with the teachings of its tradition.

 

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Was koun Franz just kidding, when he spoke of allowing the mind to move away from the head? 

 

I haven't read anything Koun Franz has said outside of what you posted, and honestly hadn't heard of him before that. In this context, I'm not sure I know what he is talking about. Is he your teacher?

 

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Why did Dogen write, "when you find your place where you are"? Doesn't everybody know the place where they are, right now?  Why should they need to "find their way at this moment"?

 

I don't think they do. If everyone knew where they REALLY were (samsara), wouldn't more people find a reason to practice?

 

In opinion Dogen is referencing finding practice in this moment. My experience is that almost no-one finds practice moment-to-moment, or has the insight to rest in non-meditation. No-one NEEDS to find their way, but some are driven to transform their experience of this moment... those people bring awareness to as many moments of their day as they can. 

 

Quote

If mind and body are dropped, where is the place where I am? 

 

"I" is no longer present in experience. Place and time drop away too. Without mind and body there is just awareness and watching the arising and passing away of the dharmakaya and its ocean of "ornaments of emptiness".

 

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"Rest in the nature of mind without an object", I'll agree with that.  But, with the mind quiet and still?  Where is your mind, when your mind is quiet and still?

 

Mind drops away like self, space, and time. Mind is always a delusion. Look for yourself. Is mind there if you don't label it mind, or is there just awareness... beingness? This is the essence of nirodha.

 

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When the fundamental point is actualized, there's practice, and the cessation of "doing something" that is shikantaza.  That's mostly what people regard as enlightenment, as far as I can tell.  What I read about in the Pali sermons is a cessation of "doing something" in feeling and perceiving, and a consequent insight in to the conditioned genesis of suffering.

 

That is an interesting perspective, but I don't think it is what most people regard enlightenment or shikantaza as being. In the Four Noble Truths, the 3rd is nirodha, or "cessation". Nirodha leads to nirvana, the end of suffering. Why is the realization of no-self conceptually linked to nirvana? Because the experience of mind and body are the entry level prerequisites. Realizing that there is no "doer" is great, but it comes from the larger insight of no-self, it doesn't replace it and it would impossible to supersede it. No-self includes a never-ending array of follow-on insights, amongst which seeing through doership is but one.

 

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It's the clear action of mind in the absence of habit or volition that constitutes the experience underlying enlightenment, at least that's my reading of the sermons--I can't say that I've had the experience, and I venture to surmise neither has Ian, but the experience he has had is sufficient to live Gautama's way of living, if I understand it.

 

There are a number of teachers at Jikoji, at Zen Center, and a great number of Buddhist teachers in places all over the world that understand enlightenment directly. All of my teachers have had direct experience, and I have met many more that aren't that also have. There might even be one in your town. 

 

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In Zen, what's important is to transmit the experience of a cessation of "doing something" in the action of the body (not the full Monty)--for that transmission, the Zen tradition famously doesn't rely on words:  

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

I remember your emphasis on this point. This is quite different from my experience with the teachers or texts of Soto Zen, or Buddhism in general. Taking it right back to the Four Noble Truths, the path is essentially recognizing that there is struggle/suffering in life and learning to practice until cessation/emptiness (nirodha) is recognized, then practicing resting in that cessation as often as possible. 

 

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I agree that taking in the whole field and being present is the most of it.  What I find is:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

(ibid)

 

That is to say, Gautama's mindfulness, and the states of concentration he experienced, were the result of "the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention".  That's the beauty of it, to me.

 

See above.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by stirling

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I haven't read anything Koun Franz has said outside of what you posted, and honestly hadn't heard of him before that. In this context, I'm not sure I know what he is talking about. 
 

 

As to who he is:
 

Koun Franz

Koun Franz was born in Helena, Montana, but has spent a good deal of his adult life in Japan. He was ordained in 2001, then trained at Zuioji and Shogoji monasteries. From 2006 to 2010, he served as resident priest of the Anchorage Zen Community in Alaska. Koun is married to Tracy Franz—they now live with their two kids in Canada (Halifax, Nova Scotia), where he leads practice at Zen Nova Scotia.
 

Articles by Koun Franz on Lion's Roar.

What Koun Franz was talking about, when he said "I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head":

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.
 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

If everyone knew where they REALLY were (samsara), wouldn't more people find a reason to practice?
 

 

 

But tell me, what is the most essential place? How is effort applied?
 

(Yuanwu, “The Blue Cliff Record”, Case 55, tr. Cleary and Cleary)

 

Be aware of where you really are 24 hours a day. You must be most attentive.
 

(“Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu”, trans. T. Cleary, pg 53)

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.
 

(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen, tr. by Tanahashi)

 

 

I don't believe they're talking about samsara, so we disagree on that.
 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

In (my) opinion Dogen is referencing finding practice in this moment. My experience is that almost no-one finds practice moment-to-moment, or has the insight to rest in non-meditation. No-one NEEDS to find their way, but some are driven to transform their experience of this moment... those people bring awareness to as many moments of their day as they can. 
 

 

"When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point"--practice occurs when I find my place where I am, when I find my way at this moment.  

 

"No-one NEEDS to find their way"--I would say there's a necessity that is exposed in the movement of breath, that has to do with the structure of the spine:

 

Moshe Feldenkrais described the reason that many people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair:
 

The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.  

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83)

 

Holding one’s breath retains pressure in the abdomen.  Medical researcher D. L. Bartilink remarked on the utility of a “tensed somatic cavity” in support of the spine: 
 

Animals undoubtedly make an extensive use of the protection of their spines by the tensed somatic cavity, and probably also use it as a support upon which muscles of posture find a hold…  

(“The Role of Abdominal Pressure in Relieving the Pressure on the Lumbar Intervertebral Discs”, J Bone Joint Surg Br 1957 Nov;39-B(4):718-25. doi: 10.1302/0301-620X.39B4.718. 1957)

 

However, Bartilink noted that pressure in the abdominal cavity need not restrict the diaphragm:
 

… Breathing can go on even when the abdomen is used as a support and cannot be relaxed.   

(ibid)

 

 

... There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages

 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

All of that just to say, it's not the movement of breath per se that is the necessity, although certainly there is a necessity to the movement of breath (see The Case of the Suffocating Woman).  More like, because of the movement of breath, a necessity arises with respect to the physical integrity of the body, and with appropriate self-surrender that necessity can place attention in such a manner as to engage support. 

My role is like falling asleep, in many respects, but that falling asleep is a kind of waking up.  

Gautama said:

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303)

 

 

Maybe that first characteristic was thought initial and sustained in the four arisings of mindfulness, in particular in the thoughts that he characterized as his way of living "most of the time".   

"... Those people bring awareness to as many moments of their day as they can"--I think it's an openness to the experience of necessity that brings pointed awareness, that's the direction I'm moving.
 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Realizing that there is no "doer" is great, but it comes from the larger insight of no-self, it doesn't replace it and it would impossible to supersede it. 
 

 

 

I know I can talk myself blue in the face, but--not a realization, not a comprehension, not an insight, not an understanding--an experience.  The experience of cessation in inhalation and exhalation pierces the "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' with regard to this consciousness-informed body", no amount of insight does that piercing.
 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

 

There are a number of teachers at Jikoji, at Zen Center, and a great number of Buddhist teachers in places all over the world that understand enlightenment directly. All of my teachers have had direct experience, and I have met many more that aren't that also have. There might even be one in your town. 
 

 

 

I'll disagree, respectfully.  I value and appreciate what the teachers in the various lineages bring.  As I said, Gautama's way of living is no small thing, and I would say Gautama's way of living hinges on a cessation of "determinate thought" in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. 

Enlightenment requires the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, that's a whole other experience.
 

 

 

 

[stirling]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

What Koun Franz was talking about, when he said "I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head"...

 

His entire quote is:

 

Quote

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are—to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go—and a fascinating one.

 

https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/

 

It's not YOUR mind that chooses where attention goes. You don't OWN a mind and never have. This is an experiment to show that where attention is, MIND (awareness) is. It is not in your control. You do not direct attention... it is not YOUR will about what happens, but the will of the dharmakaya/unity/enlightened mind.

 

Letting go of the idea that YOU are in charge of what comes to the focus of awareness IS a way in.

 

My bolds. 

 

In my opinion, Mr. Franz is giving a very nice INTRODUCTORY instruction in basic Zazen here. What is given here does NOT reflect the instruction for true resting in the nature of mind. Having said that, I was able to find an instruction from Mr. Franz that has a clearer instruction for zazen you might find interesting:

 

Quote

Choose this place.

 

Whenever you can, sit with others. When you can’t, sit with others. Let others sit with you.

 

Wear the kashaya. Just as Buddhas sit in zazen while zazen is the activity of Buddhas, Buddhas wear the kashaya —  the kashaya manifests the shape of a Buddha. Even if there is no robe, just wear it.

 

Do not put yourself into sitting — come empty handed. Do not make zazen — let sitting reveal itself. Do not use zazen for this or that — sitting is neither means nor end.

 

Spread a blanket or mat and place a zafu on top. Sit down, marking the center of the zafu with the base of the spine.

 

To sit in the full lotus, place the right foot over the left thigh, then the left foot over the right thigh. Rest your left hand on your right hand, palm up — the middle joint of the middle finger below aligns with the middle joint of the middle finger above, and thumbtips touch as if trying not to, just near enough to feel the electricity between them. This is called Sitting in Practice.

 

Reverse the legs; reverse the hands. This is called Sitting in Verification.

 

Sit in practice today and in two days. Sit in verification tomorrow and yesterday.

 

If not full lotus, half lotus. If not half lotus, rest the foot of the raised leg across the calf of the lower leg. Or kneel. Or sit on a chair. Remember that this body is the buddha’s body. Do not harm it. Also, do not underestimate it.

 

Always place the knees below the hips, the pelvis tilted forward, the lower back slightly curved. Establish a posture that need not fight gravity.

 

Be the tree beneath which other buddhas sit.

 

Press the hands below the navel; let them move with the breath. In full lotus, rest them on top of the heels. In any other posture, support the hands with a blanket or cushion.

 

Once seated, rotate the torso at the hips in wide circles, then in small ones until the spine is holding the earth in place; pull in the chin and stretch the back of the neck upwards, lifting the sky.

 

Take seven long breaths. As you inhale, fill the body with a wind that loops through your feet and across your thumbs. As you exhale, do so slowly, continuing until your breath has touched the far corners of the world. Exhale until nothing remains.

On the eighth breath, just breathe.

 

How long must one sit? How many breaths? Ancient buddhas did not measure zazen in minutes or hours.

 

Let in all sounds — hear the shifting of the continents, a bird turning in flight. Facing the wall, see beyond the horizon. Feel your heart beating, your lungs moving, your skin expanding and shrinking, the magnetic draw of your thumbs. Breathe in the stench and the perfume of the world. Let your tongue rest flat in your mouth, and taste.

 

Mara visits during zazen, but not as visions — visions, if only glanced at, will pass by like shadows. Nor will Mara come disguised as desire — desires, confronted directly, lose their power to haunt. Mara will visit as a weight on the eyelids, bearing the soft seduction of sleep. Open your eyes; if they grow heavy or the world blurs, open them wider. Keep the room cool. Let light in. Explore the waking world, not dreams.

 

Be the force of gravity, pulling you deep into the ground; be the weight of a flame. Do not move from this posture. With every cell in your body, every drop of blood, every inch of skin, constantly do not move.

 

Zazen is not non-doing; it is not non-thinking. Zazen is a deep, dreamless sleep on fire. It is clutching a boulder to your belly at the bottom of the cool ocean. Roots penetrate and plunge downward into the rough textures of the earth. A cloud dissolves into open sky.

 

 

 MY italics and bolds.

 

https://nyoho.com/2013/04/07/an-attempt-at-instructions-for-zazen/

 

 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.

 

The delusion is that these are separate parts. There AREN'T any parts. Zazen is the fabric of everything when it is seen and actualized in this moment. There ARE no moving parts when Zazen is realized in its wholeness. A breath taken is the entirety of Zazen breathing in... a breath out is the entirety of Zazen breathing out. NO separation. 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

"No-one NEEDS to find their way"--I would say there's a necessity that is exposed in the movement of breath, that has to do with the structure of the spine:

 

Moshe Feldenkrais described the reason that many people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair:
 

The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.  

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83)

 

Interesting, but not Zen OR Tripitaka. I wouldn't advise anyone get lost in there. 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

All of that just to say, it's not the movement of breath per se that is the necessity, although certainly there is a necessity to the movement of breath (see The Case of the Suffocating Woman).  More like, because of the movement of breath, a necessity arises with respect to the physical integrity of the body, and with appropriate self-surrender that necessity can place attention in such a manner as to engage support. 

My role is like falling asleep, in many respects, but that falling asleep is a kind of waking up.

 

Breath, like all phenomena takes care of itself. Is your heart beat in your purview, or does it happen regardless? The dharmakaya arises and passes of its own accord without your will, moment to moment. Your attention arises in your hands, legs, the call of a bird, the spray of a boat on the lake, the sunset, whatever. It is not really at your directive. No doer. No self. 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

Gautama said:

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.
 

(MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303)

 

 

Maybe that first characteristic was thought initial and sustained in the four arisings of mindfulness, in particular in the thoughts that he characterized as his way of living "most of the time".

 

This is not the way of Zen, unless you consider that one-pointed concentration to be the open-ended experience of the whole field of experience. This is a different practice system. 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

I know I can talk myself blue in the face, but--not a realization, not a comprehension, not an insight, not an understanding--an experience.  The experience of cessation in inhalation and exhalation pierces the "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' with regard to this consciousness-informed body", no amount of insight does that piercing.

 

?

Insight IS PRECISELY that piercing.That is point of insight in ALL Buddhist teachings. Insight, realization, IS first-hand experience... it IS complete understanding of how things are. Cessation isn't just of the breath, it is of the delusion of "self". No-self IS the primary understanding of the Tripitaka teachings, and the entry into the Mahayana teachings. 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

I'll disagree, respectfully.  I value and appreciate what the teachers in the various lineages bring.  As I said, Gautama's way of living is no small thing, and I would say Gautama's way of living hinges on a cessation of "determinate thought" in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation.

 

I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, and respect to your personal view as well.  Be cautious of faith in your own version of the teaching and be careful not to mistake it for dharma. Without insight, I pieced together my own ideas about these things years ago, born of picking and choosing what makes "sense" (what resonated) to me, but in the end discovered that my ideas were ALL wrong. 

 

Quote

"The trouble with students these days is that they seize on words and form their understanding on that basis. In a big notebook they copy down the sayings of some worthless old fellow, wrapping it up in three layers, five layers of carrying cloth, not letting anyone else see it, calling it the 'Dark Meaning' and guarding it as something precious. What a mistake! Blind fools, what sort of juice do they expect to get out of old dried bones?" - Lin-Chi, Ch'an Master, 7th Ct.

 

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

Enlightenment requires the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, that's a whole other experience.

 

It DOES! Ultimately there is no-one thinking, feeling and perceiving. These are the peripheral understandings of no-self.

 

On 11/30/2023 at 4:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

Clear Lake?

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

His entire quote is:

 

Quote

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are—to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go—and a fascinating one.
 

 

It's not YOUR mind that chooses where attention goes. You don't OWN a mind and never have. This is an experiment to show that where attention is, MIND (awareness) is. It is not in your control. You do not direct attention... it is not YOUR will about what happens, but the will of the dharmakaya/unity/enlightened mind.

 

Letting go of the idea that YOU are in charge of what comes to the focus of awareness IS a way in.

 

 

Well, Mr. stirling!  We agree.  

You might have at least given him "sensei".
 

 

Quote

 

Quote

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.
 

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)
 

 

 

The delusion is that these are separate parts. There AREN'T any parts. Zazen is the fabric of everything when it is seen and actualized in this moment. There ARE no moving parts when Zazen is realized in its wholeness. A breath taken is the entirety of Zazen breathing in... a breath out is the entirety of Zazen breathing out. NO separation. 
 

You dropped the attribution, there, but I've added it.  Not my statement, Shunryu Suzuki's.

Well.  Turning the world instead of being turned by the world happens, I'll agree.  You might actually like my latest piece, stirling--Shunryu Suzuki talking about "doing something" as "preparatory practice", so "following the breathing" is not to be confused with the experience of "just sitting".  He also talked about the first three concentrations practiced by Theravadin Buddhists as "preparatory practice", not to be confused with the actual first three concentrations.  

I think it's a good point.  What's happening when I sit down is most often not what's happening when I get up again.  

I don't try to carry on what's happening before I get up as I go about my daily life, except as a touchstone.

 

I'm reassured that Gautama described a way of living that involved only "one-pointedness" and thoughts initial and sustained, which he said was his own way of living before and after enlightenment (as the bodhisattva, and "the Tathagatha's way of living").  At the same time, his "one-pointedness" was accompanied by the suffusion of feelings of zest and ease throughout the body.  That's the trick, the juxtaposition:

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

 

 

One-pointedness of the (involuntary) placement of attention, simultaneous with the gravity of feeling throughout the body.  It's "doing something", a preparatory practice, but there is a real first concentration wherein thought initial and sustained occurs, along with a "one-pointedness" in the placement of awareness coupled with a gravity of feeling such that there is "not one particle of the body that is not pervaded". 

That was Gautama's way of living, he did not live in the cessation of inhalation and exhalation (4th concentration) nor in the cessation of feeling and perceiving (although his actions were tempered, evidently, by the conditioned genesis he realized in the cessation of feeling and perceiving).  He lived in the first concentration, though not as a preparatory practice.
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 
(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Quote

I would say there's a necessity that is exposed in the movement of breath, that has to do with the structure of the spine:

 

Moshe Feldenkrais described the reason that many people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair:
 

The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.  

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83)

 

 

Interesting, but not Zen OR Tripitaka. I wouldn't advise anyone get lost in there. 
 

 

No, I wouldn't advise it either, not unless there's no choice.  Took me 20 years after zazen got up and walked around before I realized I would have to do some research. But it all comes down to:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration

 

 

Quote

 

 

Breath, like all phenomena takes care of itself. Is your heart beat in your purview, or does it happen regardless? The dharmakaya arises and passes of its own accord without your will, moment to moment. Your attention arises in your hands, legs, the call of a bird, the spray of a boat on the lake, the sunset, whatever. It is not really at your directive. No doer. No self. 
 

 

We agree again.  We have to stop meeting like this.
 

 

Quote

 

 

This is not the way of Zen, unless you consider that one-pointed concentration to be the open-ended experience of the whole field of experience. This is a different practice system. 
 

 

 

… “Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!” He drove his fist into his lower belly, the energy center that the Japanese call hara. 

(“Two Shores of Zen: An American Monk’s Japan”, Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler, pg 4-5; quoting Harada Tangen Roshi)
 

 

I know, Rinzai not Soto, but you can't say it's not Zen.  Jiryu Mark's conclusions about his experience in Japan are interesting:

 

People may think that all of my “No Zen in the West” and all of my ranting about ”spineless American Zen” with it’s ”pop-psychology and free-flowing peanut butter” add up to a Jiryu who’d basically rather be in Japan.  A Jiryu who is suspicious if not convinced that Western Buddhism has moved so fast ahead that the Buddhism part got left behind.  A Jiryu looking backwards.

... So why do I keep bringing it up?  Why do I keep mentioning Japan?  Why do I dwell on the austere clarity of the practice there?  Why do I keep turning over and struggling with the wrenching insults I heard (and sometimes offered) to our Western practice?  Why don’t I get over it and get on with it?  Hasn’t most everyone else in California Zen?
 

... it strikes me that to lose touch with where we’ve come from is to lose touch with the fact that we are creating something completely new, completely unprecedented, in what we call “Western Dharma.”  I’m looking backwards to look forwards.  I don’t just want to “get over” monastic-style practice – I want to understand how it illuminates lay life.  I don’t want to just ”get over” hierarchy – I want to understand how to organize institutions respectfully in a truly American way.  I don’t want to just “get over” harsh training – I want to study what it really takes to soften and open a heart.
 

So I don’t believe that Zen hasn’t arrived, but I don’t believe that it has either.  Precisely here in this middle, we find the incredible creative energy and work of our time and place.  Let’s not get lazy and lean too far either way.  If we think we’ve landed, we’re just stuck; if we think we’ve missed, we’re just lost.

("No Zen in the West", Zen in the West?, Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler)

 

 

"I want to understand how it illuminates lay life"--me too!

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

?
 

Insight IS PRECISELY that piercing.That is point of insight in ALL Buddhist teachings. Insight, realization, IS first-hand experience... it IS complete understanding of how things are. Cessation isn't just of the breath, it is of the delusion of "self". No-self IS the primary understanding of the Tripitaka teachings, and the entry into the Mahayana teachings. 
 

 

We disagree.  Ah, I knew it was too good to last!

Gautama speaks of casting away the notion of an abiding self in body, feelings, mind, habitual tendencies, and mental state, seeing things instead as they really are "by means of perfect wisdom".    How that perfect wisdom is attained--I can only assume, through the experience of the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving.
 

When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the horse?

 

(Nan-yueh, from "Lancet of Seated Meditation" by Dogen, tr Carl Bielefeldt "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" p 194)

 

 

He should beat something if the cart doesn't go, right?  Or maybe attend to the relaxed, calm, detached placement of awareness from moment to moment, and at the same time extend feeling with gravity throughout the body so that awareness can take place freely.
 

 

Quote

 

 

I'm fine with you disagreeing with me, and respect to your personal view as well.  Be cautious of faith in your own version of the teaching and be careful not to mistake it for dharma. Without insight, I pieced together my own ideas about these things years ago, born of picking and choosing what makes "sense" (what resonated) to me, but in the end discovered that my ideas were ALL wrong. 
 

 

 

I have faith when I see reason to have faith in my experience.  Same as you, I'm sure.

 

 

Quote

 

Clear Lake?
 

Clear Lake.


 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

Well, Mr. stirling!  We agree. 

 

You might have at least given him "sensei".

 

Ah... good.

 

Perhaps if encounter each other someday.

 

 

 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

I don't try to carry on what's happening before I get up as I go about my daily life, except as a touchstone.

 

You should try it if you haven't. This is what Zazen gets up and walks around means. 

 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

I'm reassured that Gautama described a way of living that involved only "one-pointedness" and thoughts initial and sustained, which he said was his own way of living before and after enlightenment (as the bodhisattva, and "the Tathagatha's way of living").  At the same time, his "one-pointedness" was accompanied by the suffusion of feelings of zest and ease throughout the body.  That's the trick, the juxtaposition:

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.
 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134)

 

This whole passage about the bath powder/water/ball is part of the instructions for attaining first jhana. If you are following the instructions properly you are a world away from Zazen or Shikantaza. The object in this case is either piti or sukkha (I forget which) rather open awareness, and appears voluntary and intentional to the practitioner. Are you familiar with jhana (concentrations) practice?

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

Stages being the operative word here. What we are looking for is not something temporary, right?

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

We agree again.  We have to stop meeting like this.

 

Fantastic news, sensei!

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

“Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!” He drove his fist into his lower belly, the energy center that the Japanese call hara. 

(“Two Shores of Zen: An American Monk’s Japan”, Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler, pg 4-5; quoting Harada Tangen Roshi)

 

I know, Rinzai not Soto, but you can't say it's not Zen.

 

We might have had this conversation before...

 

The hara isn't a topic of conversation or practice mentioned in Soto Zen. It isn't necessary to complete the great work. 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

  Jiryu Mark's conclusions about his experience in Japan are interesting:

 

People may think that all of my “No Zen in the West” and all of my ranting about ”spineless American Zen” with it’s ”pop-psychology and free-flowing peanut butter” add up to a Jiryu who’d basically rather be in Japan.  A Jiryu who is suspicious if not convinced that Western Buddhism has moved so fast ahead that the Buddhism part got left behind.  A Jiryu looking backwards.

... So why do I keep bringing it up?  Why do I keep mentioning Japan?  Why do I dwell on the austere clarity of the practice there?  Why do I keep turning over and struggling with the wrenching insults I heard (and sometimes offered) to our Western practice?  Why don’t I get over it and get on with it?  Hasn’t most everyone else in California Zen?
 

... it strikes me that to lose touch with where we’ve come from is to lose touch with the fact that we are creating something completely new, completely unprecedented, in what we call “Western Dharma.”  I’m looking backwards to look forwards.  I don’t just want to “get over” monastic-style practice – I want to understand how it illuminates lay life.  I don’t want to just ”get over” hierarchy – I want to understand how to organize institutions respectfully in a truly American way.  I don’t want to just “get over” harsh training – I want to study what it really takes to soften and open a heart.
 

So I don’t believe that Zen hasn’t arrived, but I don’t believe that it has either.  Precisely here in this middle, we find the incredible creative energy and work of our time and place.  Let’s not get lazy and lean too far either way.  If we think we’ve landed, we’re just stuck; if we think we’ve missed, we’re just lost.

("No Zen in the West", Zen in the West?, Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler)

 

If the intention of Buddhism is to help sentient beings cross the river, I'd say that it is doing that wherever practitioners are dedicated and have access to teachers with insight, here, Japan or wherever. 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

We disagree.  Ah, I knew it was too good to last!

Gautama speaks of casting away the notion of an abiding self in body, feelings, mind, habitual tendencies, and mental state, seeing things instead as they really are "by means of perfect wisdom".    How that perfect wisdom is attained--I can only assume, through the experience of the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving.
 

When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the horse?

 

(Nan-yueh, from "Lancet of Seated Meditation" by Dogen, tr Carl Bielefeldt "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" p 194)

 

There are many ways in, but seeing the emptiness (cessation) of phenomena either through self, space, or time is always in the mix. As I've said before seeing through "determinate" thought would be to see that thoughts arise of their own accord, not from "self".  This is where the practice of watching thoughts arise and pass comes from. Resting the mind in emptiness (prajnaparamita) how the Buddha said Avolokiteshvajra found it:

 

Quote

 

Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva,
when deeply practicing prajna-paramita,

clearly saw that the five skandas are all empty,

and was saved from all suffering and distress. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

 

Why is the Heart Sutra so popular in Zen? Because it is the sutra that best aligns with the practice of Zazen and Shikantaza. Prajnaparamita IS resting the mind in stillness... emptiness. 

 

On 12/2/2023 at 2:20 PM, Mark Foote said:

Clear Lake.
 

 

Beautiful. I had a number of summers there in a house across the late from Konoctai (sp?). Caught the largest catfish I have ever seen there as a teen. 

[Mark Foote]

20 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The hara isn't a topic of conversation or practice mentioned in Soto Zen. It isn't necessary to complete the great work. 
 

 

 

That is a kind of strength which you will gain by your tummy here. When your mind is here or here, you know, it means you are entertaining them (images in the mind). If your mind is here, you are not concern—concerned too much about the image you have in your mind. So, try to keep right posture, with some power in your tummy.

 

("Practice Zazen With Your Whole Mind And Body", Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Friday, September 8, 1967)

 

 

You are right that Gautama never mentions the "hara", he doesn't deal much with anatomy apart from the cemetary contemplations.  Nevertheless, in the description of the feeling of the first concentration (gathering the "bath-ball", which I quoted previously), he does mention that the ball is gathered in a copper basin.  Is there a feeling to match his description, does the mind which is "here and here" settle in an area that feels like a basin?  Hmmm?

Chadwick finds it demeaning, that Mr. Suzuki referred to the hara as the "tummy" for his Western students.
 

 

Quote

 

There are many ways in, but seeing the emptiness (cessation) of phenomena either through self, space, or time is always in the mix. As I've said before seeing through "determinate" thought would be to see that thoughts arise of their own accord, not from "self".  This is where the practice of watching thoughts arise and pass comes from. Resting the mind in emptiness (prajnaparamita) how the Buddha said Avolokiteshvajra found it:

 

  Quote

 

Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva,
when deeply practicing prajna-paramita,

clearly saw that the five skandas are all empty,

and was saved from all suffering and distress. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

 

 

What is expressed in this sutra is a very daily thing, but not an ordinary thing. “Maha Prajna Paramita” is “great, complete wisdom.” Maha means “no exception, complete.” Right inside your skin this prajna fully exists. So the first thing is, we have to prepare to feel this sutra, not use our brain to understand it.

... When we are dreaming in very deep sleep, we have no sense of, “I am dreaming this.” Everything is so real we do not doubt it until someone makes a sound and we wake up. Then we wonder, “Where am I?” waking up from the dream to so-called “reality.”

 

("Kobun's Talks on the Heart Sutra", edited by Angie Boissevain and Judy Cosgrove; emphasis added)
 

 

When I find my place where I am, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

The idea is to "make self-surrender the object of thought", such that "determinate thought" in action simply ceases--first in speech, then in deed, and finally in mind:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.
 

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.
 

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.
 

(SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added)

When I find my place where I am, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.  No "seeing through" anything.  Seeing through the identification of self in the skandhas helps with "making self-surrender the object of thought"--it's not laying hold of "one-pointedness".

Right before falling asleep, that's one-pointedness.

Meanwhile:

No ignorance and also no extinction of it,
and so forth until no-old-age-and-death
and also no extinction of them;
No suff’ring, no origination, no stopping, no path;
No cognition, also no attainment.

 

Helpful to me in making self-surrender the object of thought:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages; emphasis added)
 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Beautiful. I had a number of summers there in a house across the late from Konoctai (sp?). Caught the largest catfish I have ever seen there as a teen. 
 

 

In Glenhaven, or Clearlake?  Glenhaven would be across from Konocti, as in the picture below--most of my pictures are from Lucerne, which is farther north on the Glenhaven side of the lake.


 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Mark Foote

[snowymountains]

One thing to consider in all this is how much you an open information culture.

 

Open information doesn't mean that someone will teach you things in a reverse order. Kids go to school, they learn ABC first, then they learn some words, then they write sentences, then they read history texts, science texts etc. There's a progression but the whole curriculum , as well as the teaching methods is accessible from the get go.

 

With good Theravada and Zen teachers available in the West, tbh why not go where the curriculum is more accessible.

That's not to say Dzogchen is not a great meditation tradition, it has its lure and pluses, but accessing its teachings can be complex.

Personally I didn't choose to study under a well known and regarded Dzogchen master simply because I don't want to work with a single irreplaceable source of knowledge. What if they stop teaching? How do I progress? What if I want to take a different spin to their preferred one? What if I change timezone and can't access him?

On the other hand finding a new Zen Dojo, should a change in circumstances require it, is probably way more feasible.

 

Btw the historical Buddha as per Pali Canon taught breathing meditation ( meditation on the memory of breath may be more accurate) with either the nostrils or the upper lip as a point of focus.

Breath going in the body is examined in the 4 elements meditation but not in meditation on breath , if you want to meditate per Pali Canon.

 

In Zen however, the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien.

 

Imo it doesn't matter much, both Theravada and Zen are great meditation traditions

[Mark Foote]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:47 AM, snowymountains said:

 

Btw the historical Buddha as per Pali Canon taught breathing meditation ( meditation on the memory of breath may be more accurate) with either the nostrils or the upper lip as a point of focus.

Breath going in the body is examined in the 4 elements meditation but not in meditation on breath , if you want to meditate per Pali Canon.

 

In Zen however, the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien.

 

Imo it doesn't matter much, both Theravada and Zen are great meditation traditions
 

If you can quote me a sermon in the first four Nikayas where Gautama mentions the nostrils or the upper lip, I'll eat my hat (which I'm crafting now out of buttered toast).

Here are the four elements of the mindfulness of the body, that were a part of Gautama's way of living:
 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.
 

As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.
 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:
 

I shall breathe in, feeling it go through the whole body. Feeling it go through the whole body I shall breath out.
 

Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe in. Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)

 

 

I'm wondering why you say this is meditation on the memory of breath?

The emphasis on the hara, or the tanden (dan t'ien), came later, as with Dogen's teacher Rujing:

 

Breath enters and reaches the tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.

 

(“Eihei Koroku (Dogen's Extensive Record)" vol. 5, #390, trans. Okumura)

 

I would disagree with your assessment that "In Zen... , the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien".  I would say:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

Happens that attention can come to be consistently placed at a point in the lower abdomen.  Nevertheless, the free placement of attention engendered out of necessity in the movement of breath is innate:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

Edited January 1 by Mark Foote

[snowymountains]

42 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

If you can quote me a sermon in the first four Nikayas where Gautama mentions the nostrils or the upper lip, I'll eat my hat (which I'm crafting now out of buttered toast).

Here are the four elements of the mindfulness of the body, that were a part of Gautama's way of living:
 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.
 

As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.
 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:
 

I shall breathe in, feeling it go through the whole body. Feeling it go through the whole body I shall breath out.
 

Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe in. Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)

 

 

I'm wondering why you say this is meditation on the memory of breath?

The emphasis on the hara, or the tanden (dan t'ien), came later, as with Dogen's teacher Rujing:

 

Breath enters and reaches the tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.

 

(“Eihei Koroku (Dogen's Extensive Record)" vol. 5, #390, trans. Okumura)

 

I would disagree with your assessment that "In Zen... , the focus/point-of-awareness is the Dan Tien".  I would say:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

Happens that attention can come to be consistently placed at a point in the lower abdomen.  Nevertheless, the free placement of attention engendered out of necessity in the movement of breath is innate:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:
 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.
 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

In the Anapanassati Sutta, the Buddha mentions the Parimukha. The Parimukha ( nostrils or upper lip ) is discussed in the Pali Canon, you can look at jhana-vibhango, 537.

 

The choice between nostrils or upper lip depends on where the meditators feels the breath most.

Off - Sutta ( but common sense ): This ultimately depends a lot on the shape of the nose

 

Also the reference to the "whole body" is a reference to the whole body of the breath/the totality of the breath, not our physical body.

 

Not a big fan of the quoted translation but no need to eat a hat either.

 

Btw, in Zen the emphasis on the Hara probably is older than Dogen, don't know its exact origin though. As there's no "Canon" for all lineages in Zen, the emphasis on the Hara can only be an practical remark on what is commonly taught, not a universal rule.

 

Imho the point of focus chosen by the historical Buddha is probably the best ( but not the only one ).

 

But at the end of the day, any point is ok, as long as it produces a stable Nimitta.