Lower dantian not below the navel?

[Khun Paen]

I'm researching different lineages/teachers that put the lower dantian at the navel level, instead of below it. 

 

So far I've seen

 

Zhineng

 

Spring forest qigong

 

Mantak Chia

 

The Chinese Chan monk Hsuan Hua, that founded the city of ten thousand Buddhas

 

Alex Hui. A Chinese medicine doctor on Youtube. 

 

Anyone know any others I can add to the list? Thanks

Edited November 26, 2023 by Khun Paen

[thelerner]

In a Japanese Ki-Aikido sitting and standing the lower dan tien is considered behind and below the navel.  But as you move around it also shifts, it also being a center of gravity as well as focal point.  

 

Wonder if the Chinese look for precision whereas the Japanese seemed fine with a looser definition, ie dan tien as Hara- thus when asked where it is might just pat his belly. Or maybe every tradition has a different location.  

 

So often a founder or great practitioner sets the philosophy and that's that.  A definition is frozen for generations, where it was really one guy's opinion.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by thelerner

[Maddie]

From an acupuncture point of view it lies at Ren 6 which is a little below the navel. 

[Khun Paen]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

From an acupuncture point of view it lies at Ren 6 which is a little below the navel. 

Some acupuncturists put it at Ren 6 (sea of Qi). Some put it at Ren 4 (Guanyuan). And then others like the acupuncturist/TCM doctor below put it directly behind the navel. And say ren4/6 are wrong lol. 

 

 

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Khun Paen said:

Some acupuncturists put it at Ren 6 (sea of Qi). Some put it at Ren 4 (Guanyuan). And then others like the acupuncturist/TCM doctor below put it directly behind the navel. And say ren4/6 are wrong lol. 

 

 

 

Maybe so but every standardized textbook I've ever read and every professor I've ever had always places it at Ren 6 and you wouldn't pass your exams if you said otherwise.

[oak]

Yogic tradition puts focus on the navel as well having it as the centerpoint where if you put your attention will give you knowledge of all the workings of the body (Yoga Sutras 3:29)

This makes sense to me as it is from this point that all the human body develops.

[Nintendao]

I think it is feasible that different cultivation methods can lead to variation in size, shape, and position of lower dantian. If that sounds weird at first, consider this: What is a fist? It's obvious to say that the fist is made out of the hand, but in order for a hand to be a fist we have to consider more than purely anatomical constituents. It's a matter of configuration and intention. I can make a tightly clenched fist, or a more hollow one. Specialized gongfu like leopard paw or tiger claw include quite some varying positions of the hand, still consider a fist. Even parts of the wrist getting involved. As usual I might be taking some creative liberties to help illustrate what I mean, and there are more to consider than solid tissues, like liquid chemical contents, electromagnetic properties, and on down the line. This goes for all three dantian but the lower seems to have the most wiggle room.

 

Qihai point is to dantian, as laogong point is to fist. It can be noted as an energetic focal point, but to say that the laogong is the fist, or vice versa, can see how that doesn't quite add up. If i place my fist into my belly button, i can trace what turns out to include quite a bit of volume including both under and behind, and reaching back almost to the spine (depending on how much weight i've put on 😅) So yeah, just some thoughts.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Nintendao

[EFreethought]

In my school (I am an attendee, not a teacher), it is said that the LDT is not in the exact same space for everyone. It is generally behind the navel, a few fingers within usually, sometimes above and sometimes below. And on average it is higher in women than in men. You start training/cultivating, and it develops where it develops.

 

Interestingly, the instructors say there is less variation in the locations of the other two DTs.

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

In my school (I am an attendee, not a teacher), it is said that the LDT is not in the exact same space for everyone. It is generally behind the navel, a few fingers within usually, sometimes above and sometimes below. And on average it is higher in women than in men. You start training/cultivating, and it develops where it develops.

 

Interestingly, the instructors say there is less variation in the locations of the other two DTs.

 

That is really interesting because in spite of what the text books say I always seem to feel it in the "womb" area. 

[Cobie]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That is really interesting because in spite of what the text books say I always seem to feel it in the "womb" area. 

The ancients placed the LDT in the 胃 , which literally means ‘stomach’ but was also used for ‘womb’. 
 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cobie

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

That is really interesting because in spite of what the text books say I always seem to feel it in the "womb" area. 

 

Is it possible you are feeling something else ?   5 . 6. 7 etc 'chakra systems' include the 3 main ones  , could you be feeling the 'centre' below the one near the navel ? 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Is it possible you are feeling something else ?   5 . 6. 7 etc 'chakra systems' include the 3 main ones  , could you be feeling the 'centre' below the one near the navel ? 

 

I don't know. All I do know is the instructions said a little below and a little behind the navel and then when I did the breathing I felt all of the tingling and what not in the womb area.

[Nungali]

and I would not be surprised if different people can have a different arrangement for their  'psychic bodies, as even on the physical level;

 

One time in OT (working as an assistant ) - appendectomy  . I cant see what is  going on ' inside' as I am hanging back to give them space . But I can tell there is a serious problem developing right after the first main abdominal  incision , there is a little panic , confusion, chaos until the smart  heard nurse gets on the blower and  calls down the chief head surgeon from his office - a very competent one .  He bursts in , quickly scrubbed and gowned takes one look and "  Ohhhh ! One of those ones eh ?   Gather around folks this is going to be interesting and educational ."   he directed the surgeon to proceed 'simply in the opposite manner ; ie ,  . just  incise  the other side .... there it is, (the 'missing appendix '  )   "  Carry on as normal .   You would also find this patients heart is on the other side as all of their internal organs are ...  a classical   case of  ' Situs inversus' ."

 

However this is  a reversal of bilateral symmetry  (side to side placements ) and not variations of 'up and down' placements .

 

Me  ?   LDT / one point / Hara  =  1st and 2nd  finger widths below the lower boundary of the navel . ... well, a little behind that point .

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I don't know. All I do know is the instructions said a little below and a little behind the navel and then when I did the breathing I felt all of the tingling and what not in the womb area.

 

Hmmm ... a specific ability of a 'specific'  ( you )  female TCM practitioner ?

 

That leads to my next question ... where do feel it in a male ?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2-3 inches below the navel

[Nungali]

Really ? Even in a short person ?   I guess 2 -3 is an approximate . Still I dont go for these type of measurements ... in this area , nor with weaponry

 

Q; How long should my bo  be ?  Obviously shorter for kids  , technically  it should be in proportion to your body size , same with a sai ,  you dont want it so short so its shorter than your elbow nor to long or the retracted ip is going to scrape across your rib cage .

 

hence my  way f finding  'LTD'  ; 1st and 2nd finger  width below   the bottom edge of the navel . 

 

Why so  'accurate' ?   Well, actually I am talking about the   CENTRE of the hara  .  Its 'location '  ? ...

 

The whole Universe actually .... with its centre as  above  .   

[Nintendao]

8 hours ago, EFreethought said:

In my school (I am an attendee, not a teacher), it is said that the LDT is not in the exact same space for everyone. It is generally behind the navel, a few fingers within usually, sometimes above and sometimes below. And on average it is higher in women than in men. You start training/cultivating, and it develops where it develops.

 

Interestingly, the instructors say there is less variation in the locations of the other two DTs.

 

I recently noticed a similarity between the interactability of the pelvic floor with the lower dantian, the diaphragm with the middle, and the nasopharynx with the upper. Also as the abdominal cavity offers the most flexibility, the ribcage only partially, and the skull least of all, some varied approaches.

[Sahaja]

Seems there is lot of focus on the height but my understanding is there is more mistake made on the depth of it. people get mixed up by sensitivity of ren 6 Qi hai and are too close to the surface of the skin in centering their attention - based on my experience it should be about at the level of ren 6  (roughly 2 finger widths below bb) but in the physical center of body on a direct line between the hui yin (perineum) and bai hai (top of the head). 

 

yoga has different centers but I would say the kanda is the closest in location to ldt. Kanda is the center point for all the nadis in the body and is quite energetic so if you are slightly off the ldt you are still in good company. Also some marmas, chakras and adharas in the neighborhood. Very energetic area (not to mention the energy of the kua which is nearby and can also be quite pronounced)

 

my understanding is that accupuncture points are helpful guides  but are built for needles (so are small).  Points and lines from an energetic experiential perspective  can be and often are bigger and wider so people’s somatic experience will differ. 

[Khun Paen]

On 11/28/2023 at 3:18 PM, Sahaja said:

Seems there is lot of focus on the height but my understanding is there is more mistake made on the depth of it. people get mixed up by sensitivity of ren 6 Qi hai and are too close to the surface of the skin in centering their attention - based on my experience it should be about at the level of ren 6  (roughly 2 finger widths below bb) but in the physical center of body on a direct line between the hui yin (perineum) and bai hai (top of the head). 

 

yoga has different centers but I would say the kanda is the closest in location to ldt. Kanda is the center point for all the nadis in the body and is quite energetic so if you are slightly off the ldt you are still in good company. Also some marmas, chakras and adharas in the neighborhood. Very energetic area (not to mention the energy of the kua which is nearby and can also be quite pronounced)

 

my understanding is that accupuncture points are helpful guides  but are built for needles (so are small).  Points and lines from an energetic experiential perspective  can be and often are bigger and wider so people’s somatic experience will differ. 

 

In Zhineng, the lower dantian is behind the navel, in the center of the body, on the taiji pole. Not toward the front like most descriptions explain it. I've also never understood why so many people teach it so close to the front of the stomach, like two finger widths behind the skin. Seems like a waste not killing two birds with one stone by visualizing it on the central channel. 

[Taomeow]

On the surface of the body, the LDT corresponds to the 氣海 REN 6 (Qihai) or Sea of Qi acupoint, which is located 1.5 body units (cun) below the navel.  Cun is one's personal unit of measurement -- all bodies are different but all bodies are fractals, so your cun may be different from mine, but you can easily determine yours.  Most "average" bodies will have approximately similar average cun values  but someone short or taller than "average" (whatever that means) might do better not relying on inches or centimeters offered by various "approximators" and finding the actual point on his or her actual body.  Precision matters more in acupuncture of course, dantiens don't need to be located within millimeters, so a rough idea of where your very own "1.5 cun below the navel" is  should suffice.

   

 

At the back of the body, 命門 Du 4 Mingmen or Gate of Life point is located exactly opposite your LDT.  Of course neither one is merely a point on the surface, it's more like a vortex connecting the two.  

 

[EFreethought]

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

   

 

 

For some reason, this picture is causing.....dirty thoughts.

 

[Sahaja]

Some lineages consciously avoid use or reference to energy centers below the belly button for puritanical reasons. Sometimes they are referred to as secret for similar reasons. 

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, EFreethought said:

 

For some reason, this picture is causing.....dirty thoughts.

 

 

Just like that old joke about a psychiatrist giving a patient the Rorschach test:

"Ugh!  Shame on you, doctor!  What kind of pervert are you, keeping this kind of dirty pictures in your office?!"   

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

On 02/12/2023 at 4:20 PM, Taomeow said:

On the surface of the body, the LDT corresponds to the 氣海 REN 6 (Qihai) or Sea of Qi acupoint, which is located 1.5 body units (cun) below the navel.  Cun is one's personal unit of measurement -- all bodies are different but all bodies are fractals, so your cun may be different from mine, but you can easily determine yours.  Most "average" bodies will have approximately similar average cun values  but someone short or taller than "average" (whatever that means) might do better not relying on inches or centimeters offered by various "approximators" and finding the actual point on his or her actual body.  Precision matters more in acupuncture of course, dantiens don't need to be located within millimeters, so a rough idea of where your very own "1.5 cun below the navel" is  should suffice.

   

 

At the back of the body, 命門 Du 4 Mingmen or Gate of Life point is located exactly opposite your LDT.  Of course neither one is merely a point on the surface, it's more like a vortex connecting the two.  

 

This is perfect, thanks for sharing!

[dwai]

If I remember correctly, Wang Liping had a theory about how the LDT location changes based on how close one is to the equator. But it certainly is below the navel. 

This is Google Bard's description of Wang Liping's theory (I first read it in Opening the Dragon Gate) -

 

Quote

He believed that the Lower Dan Tien is located at a point that is 1/3 of the distance from the navel to the perineum, and that this point is located closer to the navel for people who live in colder climates and closer to the perineum for people who live in warmer climates.

Wang Liping's theory is based on the idea that the body's energy centers, or Dantians, are aligned with the Earth's magnetic field. The Earth's magnetic field is strongest at the poles and weakest at the equator. Therefore, Wang Liping believed that the Lower Dan Tien would be located closer to the navel for people who live in colder climates, where the Earth's magnetic field is stronger, and closer to the perineum for people who live in warmer climates, where the Earth's magnetic field is weaker.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by dwai