Lower dantian not below the navel?

[Taomeow]

59 minutes ago, dwai said:

If I remember correctly, Wang Liping had a theory about how the LDT location changes based on how close one is to the equator. But it certainly is below the navel. 

This is Google Bard's description of Wang Liping's theory (I first read it in Opening the Dragon Gate) -

 

 

 

Far as I remember (from personal interactions -- and that was quite a while ago so I don't remember all the details), master Wang Liping was conducting his own investigation into differences in the location of various qi junctures and gates ("energy centers") based on geographic location and anatomical peculiarities of practitioners from different places.  In particular, I remember a conversation about the upper dantien and the distance from the surface to the "mud ball" or niwan -- he was interested in whether it's different in the Chinese vs. Westerners due to the difference in the shape of the bridge of the nose and the area between the eyebrows.  As for geographical explorations of these phenomena, he even traveled to the North Pole to conduct his investigations!  

[liminal_luke]

The tissues immediately surrounding the navel are energetically potent areas for a little exploratory self-massage.  While not the exact location of the LDT, I like to think of this area as the driveway leading to the castle.

[thelerner]

Bit of a tangent, but when I'm in a deeper meditation and I breath full, slow and low, there's a spot I hit at fullness that feels good.  It's lower inner belly maybe closer to the spine.  It's almost a sexual hit.  Sort of a 'la grange' point between the sexual center and lower dan tien and when in the zone breathing deep its hits the point and feels good.  

Edited December 31, 2023 by thelerner

[senseless virtue]

Some years ago I discussed briefly with @freeform about a neigong practice that had a non-standard lower dantian: it was located at the perineum.

 

What does this mean? It tells that the location of the lower dantian is really flexible and can depend on the cultivation method entirely, unless the dantian forms spontaneously through meditative practices. This also implies that some qigong and neigong methods may have natural incompatibility unless the dantian is fully developed already.

 

What is the point of having the dantian in the perineum? It allows a greater stimulation of the root chakra and basic vitality. The downside is that the practitioner must have a very strict discipline in ethics and sexual behavior so that it doesn't lead into losing steam to increased sex drive. There might be other considerations also, but I'm not initiated in the practice and don't know more details.

Edited December 4, 2023 by senseless virtue

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, senseless virtue said:

Some years ago I discussed briefly with @freeform about a neigong practice that had a non-standard lower dantian: it was located at the perineum.

 

 

The "foggy sea-bottom" point?

Love those descriptions!

 

 

[senseless virtue]

6 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

The "foggy sea-bottom" point?

 

Basically huiyin, yes.

[ChiDragon]

There are so many sayings about the lower dantian. However, there should be just one right answer. Whichever one believes is one answer，may or may not be the right one. Have your pick and believe what you want to believe what someone else says. It seems that no one knows the right answer. The teller doesn't know nor the listener.  The one who knows doesn't speak. The one who doesn't now speaks. Hopefully, one day we all come to one conclusion and an universal definition of LDT. Peace!

Edited December 5, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Khun Paen]

After talking to a few teachers in Zhineng (arguably one of the most popular qigong styles in China) there seems to be the idea that you can cultivate the lower dantian at the navel, or below it. However, building the dantian below the navel causes an energy loss. So that's Dr Pang Mings logic behind building it at the navel center. Has anyone ever heard of this idea anywhere else?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Khun Paen

[senseless virtue]

6 minutes ago, Khun Paen said:

After talking to a few teachers in Zhineng (arguably one of the most popular qigong styles in China) there seems to be the idea that you can cultivate the lower dantian at the navel, or below it. However, building the dantian below the navel causes an energy loss. So that's Dr Pang Mings logic behind building it at the navel center. Has anyone ever heard of this idea anywhere else?

 

You should read my previous post in this thread. Building dantian closer to sexual organs increases libido and the chance of having sexual thoughts. This can lead to energy loss if discipline isn't good enough.

[salaam123]

On 2.12.2023 at 6:20 PM, Taomeow said:

On the surface of the body, the LDT corresponds to the 氣海 REN 6 (Qihai) or Sea of Qi acupoint, which is located 1.5 body units (cun) below the navel.  Cun is one's personal unit of measurement -- all bodies are different but all bodies are fractals, so your cun may be different from mine, but you can easily determine yours.  Most "average" bodies will have approximately similar average cun values  but someone short or taller than "average" (whatever that means) might do better not relying on inches or centimeters offered by various "approximators" and finding the actual point on his or her actual body.  Precision matters more in acupuncture of course, dantiens don't need to be located within millimeters, so a rough idea of where your very own "1.5 cun below the navel" is  should suffice.

   

 

At the back of the body, 命門 Du 4 Mingmen or Gate of Life point is located exactly opposite your LDT.  Of course neither one is merely a point on the surface, it's more like a vortex connecting the two.  

 

 

 I thought that ming men was opposite the navel, not qi hai/ren6

[ChiDragon]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:22 PM, Khun Paen said:

After talking to a few teachers in Zhineng (arguably one of the most popular qigong styles in China) there seems to be the idea that you can cultivate the lower dantian at the navel, or below it. However, building the dantian below the navel causes an energy loss. So that's Dr Pang Mings logic behind building it at the navel center. Has anyone ever heard of this idea anywhere else?

It seems to me the use of language in describing the datian, here, is not very appropriate for the following reasons.
1. The lower dantian is already existed below the navel.
2. Dantian is not to be cultivated but to be used for cultivation by Chi Kung.
3. The purpose of dantian is to have an aiding tool for building energy rather than losing energy. So to speak!

IMMHO There are lots of masters do not know what dantian is all about but just make up some stories to satisfy someone's question.

[Sahaja]

My understanding is that alchemical systems that call the perineum the Dan tian actually just use that location as the Lu or furnace for the firing process but don’t store a Dan (the elixir) there (even though they call it a Dan tian) they would usually have the cauldron (the ding) that is used to cook the ingredients at the other “lower Dan tian” just below the umbilicus. 
 

there is a actually a simple exercise to use to see where your own lower Dan tian  is. Place your awareness at the perineum (at the Hui Yin point) and slowly carefully move it straight up on the central channel (deep in middle of the body)  toward the stomach level and then back down again and keep doing that until you get an energetic reaction (point of heat or a tugging are two types of reactions you might get) That should be the center of your own lower Dan  tian.  Need to   listen to your body carefully as you slowly move your awareness up and down and it may take a few iterations but it should show itself to you. My own experience of this is that it was deeper in my body (further from the front of the body) than I expected.

[Khun Paen]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:45 PM, ChiDragon said:

It seems to me the use of language in describing the datian, here, is not very appropriate for the following reasons.
1. The lower dantian is already existed below the navel.
2. Dantian is not to be cultivated but to be used for cultivation by Chi Kung.
3. The purpose of dantian is to have an aiding tool for building energy rather than losing energy. So to speak!

IMMHO There are lots of masters do not know what dantian is all about but just make up some stories to satisfy someone's question.

 

 

Yup, some teachers teach the dantian is already there. Other teachers like adam mizner say it doesn't exist before you create it

 

On 1/3/2024 at 12:05 PM, salaam123 said:

 I thought that ming men was opposite the navel, not qi hai/ren6

 

Some people put the lower dantian at the navel level, and ming men at the navel level. Some put the lower dantian below the navel, and the ming men at the navel level above the dantian. Some people put the lower dantian below the navel, and the ming men below the navel too at ren6. Confused yet?

 

On 12/26/2023 at 7:31 PM, senseless virtue said:

You should read my previous post in this thread. Building dantian closer to sexual organs increases libido and the chance of having sexual thoughts. This can lead to energy loss if discipline isn't good enough.

 

Ya I read that. But I thought it was just in the context of focusing on the lower dantian at the perineum. Not just 2-3 finger widths below the navel. Anyways, interesting idea. 

Edited January 10 by Khun Paen

[ChiDragon]

37 minutes ago, Khun Paen said:

Yup, some teachers teach the dantian is already there. Other teachers like adam mizner say it doesn't exist before you create it

Don't you think there should be an universal definition of lower dantian. Rather than making up stories from those who don't know as they please? Don't you think it's sad that they are selling false information to those who are naive enough to buy them? Peace!

P.S.
Doesn't "lower" has any meaning at all? Why does someone wants to move it above the navel. BTW The dantian above the navel is called the middle dantian. Is that the way we are cultivating our minds to degrade our wisdom? It's definitely not for me.

@Cobie  This is called 名不正  言不順

Edited January 5 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

.

Edited January 10 by Cobie

[MBZ]

I wanna say Waysun Laio also puts the LDT at the navel and meditating on that spot one is to basically back track through the “energetic umbilical cord” to source/dao. My memory might be off so I hope I didn’t butcher that lol

[salaam123]

On 25.11.2023 at 11:12 PM, Khun Paen said:

I'm researching different lineages/teachers that put the lower dantian at the navel level, instead of below it. 

 

So far I've seen

 

Zhineng

 

Spring forest qigong

 

Mantak Chia

 

The Chinese Chan monk Hsuan Hua, that founded the city of ten thousand Buddhas

 

Alex Hui. A Chinese medicine doctor on Youtube. 

 

Anyone know any others I can add to the list? Thanks

 

If Im not mistaken, Mantak Chia sees the navel as an entrance point to the LDT, which is in the center of the body, in the mingmen-navel-sexual center -triangle.

[Master Logray]

20 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

I agree entirely. The LDT is defined as being below the navel. Full stop. The rest is nonsense talk. Best ignored.

 

 

 

It is not defined but mentioned in some ancient books as below the navel.  Over the ages the exact location of Dantien has not been established, or there are just too many exact locations.   Anyway I think the best approach is what the forum always say - follow your teacher/system.  

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 11/26/2023 at 9:40 AM, Cobie said:

The ancients placed the LDT in the 胃 , which literally means ‘stomach’ but was also used for ‘womb’. 
 

 

胃 is where the foods are digested. 
子宫 is the Uterus or womb where fetus is developed in.

Edited January 6 by ChiDragon

[Jenn]

I wonder if some of the confusion / differences in location is due to the challenges and imperfections of looking in the body and how the ability to look within grows and strengthens with time.  We spend a lifetime orienting ourselves in space by sight and have access to pretty elaborate information on anatomy, but "seeing" in the body with the mind is not so straightforward.  I noticed as I first started to be able to sense individual organs, my internal sense didn't line up perfectly with where anatomy places the organ, sometimes I would even feel my focus on the organ was actually slightly outside my body (even though I am fairly sure my spleen is not on my outsides 😋), but that is where I felt the organ.  As my internal sense got better, I started to feel the organs closer to where they are physically, although probably still pretty rough.  Like my brain needed time to learn to figure out orientation and scale inside.

 

You can find it using your inner sense, but trying to reconcile that sense with the whole different system of senses we use to operate in the outside world (with sight/sound/feel/etc) likely takes time and might not even be fully possible.  Like comparing someone who can see and someone who cannot, likely they can both move through the physical world with confidence, but their internal frameworks of orienting in space would be very different and fairly incompatible with each other.  We build that framework internally, and as we build it individually within ourselves and that framework adjusts as it strengthens in time with practice, no two would be identical instead just roughly similar.  

[Cobie]

.

Edited January 10 by Cobie

[Pai_Mei]

On 5.1.2024 at 1:24 AM, Khun Paen said:

 

 

Yup, some teachers teach the dantian is already there. Other teachers like adam mizner say it doesn't exist before you create it

 

 

Some people put the lower dantian at the navel, and ming men at the navel. Some put the lower dantian below the navel, and the ming men at the navel above the dantian. Some people put the lower dantian below the navel, and the ming men below the navel too at ren6. Confused yet?

 

 

Ya I read that. But I thought it was just in the context of focusing on the lower dantian at the perineum. Not just 2-3 finger widths below the navel. Anyways, interesting idea. 

 

Hu Yaozhen, one of the founding fathers of modern Qigong had an interesting solution to this problem.  He would put the lower Dantian above the Huiyin and the middle Dantian at the point between navel and Mingmen, just as it is done in Zhineng Qigong. While a large number of modern Qigong texts situate the middle Dantian in the chest, it is interesting to note that in some older texts it is located in the abdomen as Hu teaches. For example in the Yuji Qiqian, an anthology of the Daoist Canon written circa 1029, the middle Dantian is associated with the middle jiao, the abdomen, and the area "below the heart".

[Sahaja]

One of the earliest  descriptions of the lower Dan tian was in the Central Scripture of Laozi - roughly late 2nd to 3rd century CE. - quoted below 

 

note reference to the red child. Purportedly an early reference to the  later internal alchemy concept of the  inner embryo. Unlike the internal alchemy inner embryo, the red child is already there and doesn’t need to be conceived, just fed. 

 

[Gerard]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:51 AM, dwai said:

If I remember correctly, Wang Liping had a theory about how the LDT location changes based on how close one is to the equator.

 

 

Very interesting and I can confirm that too.

 

I'm based in the southern hemisphere below the Earth meridian of latitude: Tropic of Capricorn.

 

It is just a bit above the navel.

 

Everything shifts when one lives below the major meridian line of the Equator, including Qi flow.

 

Taoism is a marvellous science. 

[EFreethought]

3 hours ago, Gerard said:

Very interesting and I can confirm that too.

 

I'm based in the southern hemisphere below the Earth meridian of latitude: Tropic of Capricorn.

 

It is just a bit above the navel.

 

Everything shifts when one lives below the major meridian line of the Equator, including Qi flow.

 

Taoism is a marvellous science. 

 

Are there any other equatorial changes that you are aware of?

 

In  the style I study, we always face south. As far as I know, there are no students in the southern hemisphere. Some of us wonder if we would have to face north if we were in Australia.