Pagan roots of the abrahamic traditions

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So, we know both jews and muslims were polytheitw until about 300bx and 650 ad (please correct men If im wrong.

Basically all of Europe was pagan until 400ad, with the last to fall being the baltics in the 13tj century i belive.

Question is, what influence did the pagan traditions of these regions has on the religions as we know them today?

[Giles]

While I'm loathe to cite Wikipedia, nonetheless you, @NaturaNaturans, may find this useful:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 hours ago, Giles said:

While I'm loathe to cite Wikipedia, nonetheless you, @NaturaNaturans, may find this useful:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism

 

Hmmm i would say i disagree. I am not sure i am qaulified to disagree, but i will do so none the less. By the definition of from wiki, pagan seems to synonymous with the jewish concept of gentiles. I dont think it is, however. I would never call an animist a pagan, for example. Nor would i call a buddhist one.
When i think about Paganism, i think about the indo-europeans traditions: Celtic, germanic, slavic, roman, greek, hindu and more. They share a great deal in common in terms of their Panthéons, «cosmic law/nature worship,» fire symbolism, rituals, magic, sacred beverages, warrior/honor-ethos etc. 

i might be wrong, but this is my understanding, and i am open for alternative perspectives.

Edited November 26, 2023 by NaturaNaturans
Typos

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Lets take a look at mithraism for example. Mithra is first mentioned in the vedas 1400bc. This link shows the enourmos amount and range of «temples» dedicaited to him. They are found in Ireland, Germany, Italy, Hungart, Russia, Iraq, Persia… you know it.

 

Now, lets compare Mithra to Jesus. Because of ladyens and limited knowledge i will make use of chatgdp:

Quote

similarities:

    1.    Birth from a Virgin: Some accounts of Mithra’s birth depict him as being born from a rock or a cosmic egg, which could be interpreted symbolically as a form of “virgin birth.” In contrast, Jesus Christ is traditionally believed to have been born of the Virgin Mary.
    2.    December 25th: Both Mithra and Jesus are associated with December 25th in some way. December 25th was the date of the Roman festival of Sol Invictus, which celebrated the unconquered sun, and Mithra was often linked to this festival. Jesus’ birth is celebrated on December 25th in the Christian tradition.
    3.    Solar Symbolism: Mithra is often associated with the sun and is considered a solar deity. Jesus is referred to as the “Light of the World” in Christian symbolism, and his birth is associated with the appearance of the “Star of Bethlehem.”
    4.    Sacrifice: In Mithraic rituals, the sacrifice of a bull (tauroctony) is a central element. This act is seen as a form of purification. In Christianity, Jesus is often referred to as the sacrificial lamb whose death brings salvation and purification to believers.
    5.    Resurrection: Mithra is sometimes depicted as ascending to the heavens or being associated with the concept of resurrection. In Christianity, the resurrection of Jesus is a central theological belief.

Quite convincing, dont you think?

[Maddie]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

So, we know both jews and muslims were polytheitw until about 300bx and 650 ad (please correct men If im wrong.

Basically all of Europe was pagan until 400ad, with the last to fall being the baltics in the 13tj century i belive.

Question is, what influence did the pagan traditions of these regions has on the religions as we know them today?

 

It would be more accurate to say Arabs and Hebrews were polytheistic since Muslim and Jewish are monotheistic religions, while the former are ethnic groups.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

30 minutes ago, Maddie said:

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

So, we know both jews and muslims were polytheitw until about 300bx and 650 ad (please correct men If im wrong.

Basically all of Europe was pagan until 400ad, with the last to fall being the baltics in the 13tj century i belive.

Question is, what influence did the pagan traditions of these regions has on the religions as we know them today?

 

It would be more accurate to say Arabs and Hebrews were polytheistic since Muslim and Jewish are monotheistic religions, while the former are ethnic groups.

 

Pagan was also originally used as a pejorative term, like the English "bumpkin" to to denigrate non Christians as unsophisticated "country folk" who were not smart or educated enough to convert Christianity like people in the cities had done.  Polytheism would therefore be a more respectful term, though paganism has certainly lost its original negative connotations in ordinary usage.

 

ZYD

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

Pagan was also originally used as a pejorative term, like the English "bumpkin" to to denigrate non Christians as unsophisticated "country folk" who were not smart or educated enough to convert Christianity like people in the cities had done.  Polytheism would therefore be a more respectful term, though paganism has certainly lost its original negative connotations in ordinary usage.

 

ZYD

 

The irony is that the "pagan" philosophers of ancient Greece and Rome considered the early Christians simpletons lol.  

[wandelaar]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

The irony is that the "pagan" philosophers of ancient Greece and Rome considered the early Christians simpletons lol.  

 

And rightly so! The ideas of the ancient Greeks and Romans were much more advanced than the illogical ramblings of the Christians.

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

And rightly so! The ideas of the ancient Greeks and Romans were much more advanced than the illogical ramblings of the Christians.

 

Several times after reading about Christian mystics I have tried to be gracious with Christianity and see what cultivation gems there might be within it. It was like looking for water in a desert in my opinion. Every now and then you might find a puddle here and there but that's about it. Just based on my experience. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Several times after reading about Christian mystics I have tried to be gracious with Christianity and see what cultivation gems there might be within it. It was like looking for water in a desert in my opinion. Every now and then you might find a puddle here and there but that's about it. Just based on my experience. 

Who have you read, and what did you like and dislike? I havent read any of them.

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Who have you read, and what did you like and dislike? I havent read any of them.

 

It was more reading about them than reading them, but I have read about the desert fathers, St. Thomas of the cross, Mister Eckhart, ect. It was more like after seeing people seemingly get some deep stuff out of Christianity I would look through the bible and see what I could find for myself and that was typically disappointing. 

[wandelaar]

@Maddie

 

It's even worse with the theologians. In my opinion there is a large kernel of truth within the mystical experience and that will usually shine through whatever the specific religion of the mystic. But Christian theology and dogma is simply a mess.

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@Maddie

 

It's even worse with the theologians. In my opinion there is a large kernel of truth within the mystical experience and that will usually shine through whatever the specific religion of the mystic. But Christian theology and dogma is simply a mess.

 

It does seem to have many problematic elements. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

And rightly so! The ideas of the ancient Greeks and Romans were much more advanced than the illogical ramblings of the Christians.

Hmm i would love to see how Europe had turned Out If it stayed pagan. Not a very representative perspective of course, but i just started reading meditations, and i must say, he has more wisdom then any living euro today.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

48 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

It does seem to have many problematic elements. 

Welll, my nation is lutheran (and now atheist), and was among the last to fall under the roman chatolic church. Broke away at first posible moment aswell… but i must say, i have a very positive view of the christians ive met. 
 

If you wonder what lutheranism is, it is basically that the relationship between you and god is between you and him exclusivley. No dogma, no need for a priest or a church or a bible. 
 

Christian means follower of Christ, and in my view, he seems like a chill dude.

[wandelaar]

 

8 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm i would love to see how Europe had turned Out If it stayed pagan. Not a very representative perspective of course, but i just started reading meditations, and i must say, he has more wisdom then any living euro today.

 

By Marcus Aurelius you mean? Also very interesting are Epicurus and Epictetus. Or The Therapy of Desire: Theory and Practice in Hellenistic Ethics by Martha C. Nussbaum.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

 

By Marcus Aurelius you mean? Also very interesting are Epicurus and Epictetus. Or The Therapy of Desire: Theory and Practice in Hellenistic Ethics by Martha C. Nussbaum.

Yes, Aurelius. Thank you for the suggestions, ill make a note of it

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@wandelaar not sure If it is of interrest to you, but i have a qouted a few pagan texts in this thread. 

 

[Maddie]

25 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm i would love to see how Europe had turned Out If it stayed pagan. Not a very representative perspective of course, but i just started reading meditations, and i must say, he has more wisdom then any living euro today.

 

Well one modern nation that did remain polytheistic to this day is India if you want a reference point. 

[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@wandelaar not sure If it is of interrest to you, but i have a qouted a few pagan texts in this thread. 

 

 

Oh - I'm getting into information overload mode now. I have made a favorite of your thread but I don't know when I will have the time to actually read it...

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Well one modern nation that did remain polytheistic to this day is India if you want a reference point. 

I dont think that is a valid argument. India is really, really diverse. Lets compare 1th century rome to 1th century Judea, where would you rather live? Persia before or after muslim conquest? It is not like euros where neanderthals before christ and saints after.

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I dont think that is a valid argument. India is really, really diverse. Lets compare 1th century rome to 1th century Judea, where would you rather live? Persia before or after muslim conquest? It is not like euros where neanderthals before christ and saints after.

 

Not sure if I understand your argument? 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Not sure if I understand your argument? 

That i dont think Europe would resemble India even If it stayed pagan. I do not think monotheistic belief systems are inherintley better. Or, they they are better at one thing: control. But before i accuse you of something you might not mean, do you belive pagan societies tend to do worse then monotheistic once, based on faith?

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

That i dont think Europe would resemble India even If it stayed pagan. I do not think monotheistic belief systems are inherintley better. Or, they they are better at one thing: control. But before i accuse you of something you might not mean, do you belive pagan societies tend to do worse then monotheistic once, based on faith?

 

I don't think its a correlation that I have ever contemplated to be honest. I guess my default assumption is its irrelevant. 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

The irony is that the "pagan" philosophers of ancient Greece and Rome considered the early Christians simpletons lol.  

 

The term also has roots in 'country dweller' .  

 

   Ety ; 

c. 1400, perhaps mid-14c., "person of non-Christian or non-Jewish faith," from Late Latin paganus "pagan," in classical Latin "villager, rustic; civilian, non-combatant" noun use of adjective meaning "of the country, of a village," from pagus "country people; province, rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten" (from PIE root *pag- "to fasten"). As an adjective from early 15c.

The religious sense often was said in 19c. [e.g. Trench] to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the Latin word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c. 202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (such as milites "soldier of Christ," etc.).

The English word was used later in a narrower sense of "one not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim." As "person of heathenish character or habits," by 1841. Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.