emptying or filling ?

[YMWong]

Having read through this forum for a few days I feel it really is a mirror of the modern world: everyone is looking for POWER !

 

Be that money, *supernatural* abilities or the power to control others: these are all very un-daoist goals in one's life.

 

Daoism has always been a very *broad* path which, throughout history, has attracted people of various walks of life.

Similarly to small rivulets flowing into the big river of Dao, mainstream Daoism has always held an inclusive attitude while however working to *correct* what was considered un-orthodox within those schools.

 

So from the very beginning of "institutional" Daoism ~2000 years ago there has been an orthodox apophatic Way which, following the teaching of Lao/Zhuang, has been looking at emptiness as a goal. Expelling all spirits, including those in one's own body, and burn them to be able to become *One-with-Dao*.

 

The other Way, as for instance most Shenxiao-like orders, are kataphatic in nature and look at *filling* (with power) their body and/or utilizing their body as *medium*.

Many of these orders has been 'rectified' by the work of eminent Daoists like Bai Yuchan mainly with the Song, but a lot of their adherents did not accept the new *rules* and continued their practices. These kind of Daoism is still quite popular in China, especially in the central/southern areas, and many of those sought after by people on this board can be ascribed to these lines (at best).

 

From a (orthodox) daoist point of view, most of these practitioners/masters are considered low level thus not having access to high-grade Registers and the spirits/ghosts they command are in the lower spheres. Most of their practices, from meditation to ritual, is far away from the perfection of actual Daoist ritual.

 

It is true that "simila cum similibus agunt".

People looking for powers pay lots of money to study with masters who like to show their powers.

 

Sadly enough, this is all quite far away from the Daoist Path.

 

YM

[Trash Filter]

imo it's a very lame, tired argument, which limits progression.

 

People have capabilities which in today's society are considered supernatural and frowned upon, because the lack of focus on these faculties.

 

If you have legs, we should learn how to walk? Because that's why they are there. Same goes for human extrasensory faculty.

 

Anything short of not enlightening the self, is lazy and we are not practicing enough.

 

Of course, everyone has their own lesson in this life. A lot are content with relearning a very old, very worn average path. Power over people is one example. Others seek more, and work hard.

 

Granted to you, extrasensory faculty is but a side effect of a grander realization that should be the ultimate focus.

[YMWong]

Not sure I'm following you

 

If you have legs, we should learn how to walk? Because that's why they are there. Same goes for human extrasensory faculty.

 

Are you saying that just like legs are meant for walking hands are meant for burning newspapers ?

 

YM

[nightwatchdog]

Of course, these observations contain a truth.

 

Being overly concerned with Levels of attainment and understanding is yet another thing to be transcended. Being concerned with the attainments of others is also to be transcended. The Tao dosen't rest in our opinions.

 

Most important is to continue moving, whether or not you have legs to stand on.

[Trash Filter]

It upsets me sometimes that people are so against masters who can do great things (probably jealousy). They have no problem with the greats like Buddha, Jesus and Krishna who all had to use their beautiful powers, but when it comes to normal folk who have developed their abilities they start saying they are un daoist (who were very much delving in extrasensory) and they are inconsistent in understanding.

 

2ndly, who are we to say that people who attain these levels are focused & out of touch with the dao in the first place? Does anyone on this forum truly understand what it takes to be able too use these special human powers? You will find we have to be in even more tune with the dao!

 

The energy community needs people who are moving the boundaries and help each other along, and it looks like that is the way its moving regardless.

 

Like I said, energy powers are mutually inclusive of Dao. It is how we use them, that is more controversial.

 

Obviously...fire from the hands...Don't concentrate on the finger, when it is pointing to the moon. There are many applications of energy.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

People that have these abilities are closer to the Dao then what we are they connect to its power and can use it at will!

[YMWong]

Good luck guys, you need it

 

YM

 

EDIT: in case somebody wants to know what ACTUALLY means to be a Daoist, in contrast to reading the likes of the Wandering "Daoist" Trilogy, I'd suggest to start with books like:

 

THE TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF THE EARLY QUANZHEN TAOIST MASTERS

Stephen Eskildsen

Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004

Edited May 19, 2008 by YMWong

[rex]

... when it comes to normal folk who have developed their abilities they start saying they are un daoist (who were very much delving in extrasensory) and they are inconsistent in understanding.

This is just a general comment and not aimed at any particular school or teacher but I think it depends on the source of the power; i.e. 'borrowed' power as a result of overshadowing or 'true' power as a result of spiritual alignment and unfoldment. In some cases they may be one and the same but as a general rule for assessing the integrity of a practice and teacher it's useful to keep in mind the distinction.

[Patrick Brown]

I agree with the initial post that powers, whether physical or mental/psychological, have bugger all to do with the flow. In fact we have all been warned time and time again not to abuse personal power. Cultivating Occult powers is a trap for the ego and although this does not result in anything so bullshit as soul-lose it can and does eventually result in massive damage to the ego. If you've ever visited a secure psychiatric ward you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

I have on occasion talked to people that can lucid dream and they tell me how they would love to be able to achieve such a state at will. I of course point out that the blurring of this world with the dream world (astral/bardo/loka) can end in schizophrenia.

 

As I've said in other posts here I have experienced/had many occult powers although I choose to not develop them. The only ability I still have, which I think all people have to a greater or lesser extent, is to see prana. Look at the blue sky on a sunny day and hold a finger about twelve inches away from your face and you should be able to see bright sparks spinning around each other. I've never been given a modern scientific explanation for this phenomena although there may well be one.

 

Anyway, as said occult powers are an ego trap, if not an ego trip, so it's much better to spend your time learning a musical instrument but please don't yearn to be famous as that's just another trap!

[Trash Filter]

what a freak

 

Of course there is ego, we are human.

 

How about we do nothing at all, and perish. No ego

[Patrick Brown]

what a freak

 

Of course there is ego, we are human.

 

How about we do nothing at all, and perish. No ego

what an idiot

 

Yes but the ego is the shadow of our self and more ego takes you away from your self and less ego brings you home.

[Trash Filter]

what an idiot

 

Yes but the ego is the shadow of our self and more ego takes you away from your self and less ego brings you home.

 

So all people who happen to have powers as a by product of meditation training are egotistical and unenlightened?

 

Ridiculous, what are doing on an energy forum??

[Patrick Brown]

So all people who happen to have powers as a by product of meditation training are egotistical and unenlightened?

Only if they cultivate them thinking they're somehow important/necessary.

 

Ridiculous, what are doing on an energy forum??

Hmmmm what you doing on this planet?

[neidan practitioner]

Having read through this forum for a few days I feel it really is a mirror of the modern world: everyone is looking for POWER !

 

Be that money, *supernatural* abilities or the power to control others: these are all very un-daoist goals in one's life.

 

Agreed. There have been a wide range of practices that have somehow fallen under the common

name of 'taoist' practices, but some seem to have little or nothing at all to do with spiritual cultivation,

(or self cultivation, if you prefer that term), or they seem to contain gross distortions of mainstream taoist

esoteric practices, or outright bizarre practices. 'External Alchemy' and 'genital weight lifting' come to mind.

 

I have also read posts by some in various forums, (not necessarily here), seeming to indicate that they

absolutely believe certain famous 'masters' out there are immortals, or are at least very advanced beings,

because those 'masters' have demonstrated certain nei gong abilities, or because books have been written

about them claiming or hinting that they are immortals, or 'advanced' beings. Just because someone has

achieved some nei gong ability, or just because someone has made some claims about them in a book,

does not make them an 'immortal' of course, assuming a person believes in the concept of taoist

immortality in the first place. Also, IMO, spritually developed individuals most likely are not going to charge

large sums of money to take you on as a student. It seems to me, they will teach you only if they are inclined

to do so, and likely will not charge you much or anything at all, in such a case.

 

We all have the ability of discernment, to some extent or other anyway, and there are times when that

ability should be put to good use, in my opinion. Just as a spiritual teacher might put a potential student

through a series of tests, sometimes over several years, to help determine the potential student's

true character and motivations, I think a potential student should use their discernent as best they can on

the potential teacher as well. Just to be clear, folks, if a 'master' starts talking about a 'cultivation practice' of

drinking urine, or asks you to taste your urine, etc., and you aren't running out the door as fast as you can

within two seconds, you may want to start brushing up on your discerment skills a little bit.

Yes, I have seen posts where people actually seemed to be seriously dscussing such things.

Anyway, that's just my take on it all. Ultimately, everyone has to make up their own mind.

[Trash Filter]

It doesn't take a genius to know that practitioners that use power over people is undaoist behaviour.

 

In fact you forget that people who have no supernatural power have power over people more so (using money, politics, weapons, drugs, violence instead), yet you do not comment on the real issues.

 

Your real issue is claustrophobia of human potential, like Galileo proving the Earth was round and the rabble could not see the benefit and only wanted what they wanted to see- absurdity.

 

People who are ahead of their time (supernatural), will always be frowned upon by jealous, conservative and status qou. It has been like that for centuries, from ancient times to inqusition.

 

Little do they realise, these clever daoists enjoy discovering the mysteries of the self, just like someone with talent in soccer can practice soccer, it is very natural.

 

Jesus, Buddha and Krishna used their powers to help others. They were not egotistical and were very Dao.

 

So many of other powers are harmless and help our lives. We can make an automobile a tank or an ambulance car? It is a tired argument.

[agharta]

As far as Taoists and power go...it reminds me of a Chinese saying, "If a Chinese person fails, he becomes a Taoist. If he succeeds, he becomes a Confucian."

 

Beyond that, there's the concept that the highest cultivation is to be able to be one with the Tao while living a normal life in society. All of this going and hiding in caves and shit is like a crutch for those who do not have the ability to cultivate successfully with distractions around. However, if you need the crutch, it's probably not a bad thing to use it. There comes a time to throw away the crutch, though, at least temporarily, maybe? that's situational, and individual, perhaps.

Edited May 20, 2008 by agharta

[YMWong]

I have on occasion talked to people that can lucid dream and they tell me how they would love to be able to achieve such a state at will. I of course point out that the blurring of this world with the dream world (astral/bardo/loka) can end in schizophrenia.

 

Patrick,

 

we do practice lucid dreams but they are only part of the process.

 

The goal is not to achieve lucid dreams.

The goal is to obtain lucid dreams of which we have full control AND YET be able to show no attachement and let it *play* as a standard dream.

 

Later, a 'no dream' phase will happen.

 

Agreed. There have been a wide range of practices that have somehow fallen under the common

name of 'taoist' practices, but some seem to have little or nothing at all to do with spiritual cultivation,

[...]

to start brushing up on your discerment skills a little bit.

Yes, I have seen posts where people actually seemed to be seriously dscussing such things.

Anyway, that's just my take on it all. Ultimately, everyone has to make up their own mind.

 

Finally somebody whose name ("neidan practictioner") and words go hand-in-hand

 

Thanks !

 

YM

Edited May 20, 2008 by YMWong

[sheng zhen]

Patrick,

 

we do practice lucid dreams but they are only part of the process.

 

The goal is not to achieve lucid dreams.

The goal is to obtain lucid dreams of which we have full control AND YET be able to show no attachement and let it *play* as a standard dream.

I believe it is called pellucid dreaming. Much more fun than controlled lucid dreaming.

 

But YMWong, could you explain more about the "no dream" phase? I have seen Dao Zhen mentioned it here too a while ago.

Do you mean that we actually dont have dreams, or that we are just as conscious in dreams as we are in waking life, meaning no difference between the two states?

Edited May 20, 2008 by sheng zhen

[YMWong]

But YMWong, could you explain more about the "no dream" phase? I have seen Dao Zhen mentioned it here too a while ago.

Do you mean that we actually dont have dreams, or that we are just as conscious in dreams as we are in waking life, meaning no difference between the two states?

 

It is actual no dreams.

 

In the Daoist view normal dreaming is generated by the hun/po spirits who roam around at night without control, so the first step is to put the spirits under control.

 

Daoists have created a number of practices to address this specific issue. Those most common are ascribed to Chen Yinxi (Tunan) and are known also outside of the daoist entourage under the name 'shuigong' (sleeping practice).

Sleeping (laying) is one of the main four standard practices of that are: laying, standing, sitting, moving.

 

Sleeping/dreaming in daoist history has been also often emplyed as a tool of learning, the famous "Golden Millet Dream" comes to mind together with Zhuangzi's butterfly:

 

"Once Chuang Chou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Chou. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Chou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Chou. Between Chuang Chou and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things."

 

YM

[sheng zhen]

It is actual no dreams.

 

In the Daoist view normal dreaming is generated by the hun/po spirits who roam around at night without control, so the first step is to put the spirits under control.

 

Daoists have created a number of practices to address this specific issue. Those most common are ascribed to Chen Yinxi (Tunan) and are known also outside of the daoist entourage under the name 'shuigong' (sleeping practice).

Sleeping (laying) is one of the main four standard practices of that are: laying, standing, sitting, moving.

 

Sleeping/dreaming in daoist history has been also often emplyed as a tool of learning, the famous "Golden Millet Dream" comes to mind together with Zhuangzi's butterfly:

 

"Once Chuang Chou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Chou. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Chou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Chou. Between Chuang Chou and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things."

 

YM

Thanks.

 

But I guess this no-dream state is not the same as not remembering any dreams. Is it more like the tibetian lucid deraming where you enter meditation while you are lucid in dreaming?

[de_paradise]

YM, to be fair to us in the west, know that alot of us are just curious about siddhis and qigong powers because we have grown up in a society, where this kind of thing is a priori utter bullshit, madeup fantasy of unevolved societies seeking to explain the world without science.

 

So people like me curious to know just what is the limits of human potential, what have we been missing out on.

 

Of course in Hong Kong, virtually everyone takes belief in chi, ghosts, fengshui, flying masters who can do all sorts of tricks for granted.

 

I just want to know whats real, and at that point can make a judgement if it helps or hinders. But I have certainly come across what you expressed many many times. Not to say its useless or redundant to assume the moral high-ground in another repetition of our puppet play of human existence. The Zen people with the swinging staff had it worked out better.

Edited May 20, 2008 by de_paradise

[YMWong]

Thanks.

 

But I guess this no-dream state is not the same as not remembering any dreams. Is it more like the tibetian lucid deraming where you enter meditation while you are lucid in dreaming?

 

Yes, it is absence of dreams and different from not remembering dreams.

 

I have no idea about the tibetan thing, my only interest is Daoism, and as a general rule I tend to avoid making comparison with other traditions because this usually results in the impression (only) of *having understood*.

 

YM

[sheng zhen]

Yes, it is absence of dreams and different from not remembering dreams.

 

I have no idea about the tibetan thing, my only interest is Daoism, and as a general rule I tend to avoid making comparison with other traditions because this usually results in the impression (only) of *having understood*.

 

YM

But is the no-dream state like meditation while lucid dreaming? (without making any comparison )

 

One more question, is there anything that replaces the dreaming? Any inner work, practice or things like that? Or is it just emptyness?

Edited May 20, 2008 by sheng zhen

[YMWong]

But is the no-dream state like meditation while lucid dreaming? (without making any comparison )

 

One more question, is there anything that replaces the dreaming? Any inner work, practice or things like that? Or is it just emptyness?

 

Not having personal experience I unfortunately have no way to answer your question in details, but *I think* it is not like meditation - just nothing (no dream).

 

Practice/inner work *should* come before that attainment.

 

I seem to recall that Chen Yinxi manual of "shuigong" had been translated in one early issue of the (now defunct) 'Taoist Resources' magazine.

Check out the Society for the Study of Chinese Religions website, I think some of the old issues might still be available.

 

YM

[sheng zhen]

Not having personal experience I unfortunately have no way to answer your question in details, but *I think* it is not like meditation - just nothing (no dream).

 

Practice/inner work *should* come before that attainment.

 

I seem to recall that Chen Yinxi manual of "shuigong" had been translated in one early issue of the (now defunct) 'Taoist Resources' magazine.

Check out the Society for the Study of Chinese Religions website, I think some of the old issues might still be available.

 

YM

Thanks, but do you have link for the website? I did a search the website was down or gone or something.

 

Ive done quite a lot of lucid dreaming, and pellucid dreaming, and would like know more about the daoist sleep practices.

 

I know Wang LiPing explains in his book that he uses dreams for learning. And Ive heard people report he uses it for teaching too. I also have a teacher who uses dreams to teach so Ive payed attention to my dreams and worked with them for many years.

 

Maby I can pm Dao Zhen and see if he would like to share a little about it.