emptying or filling ?

[YMWong]

[gendao]

Later, a 'no dream' phase will happen.

Wow, damn!

 

A night without dreams? Very interesting...anyone here attain this, yet?

[freeform]

YMWong, you do seem quite sincere - but it also seems you don't yet realise the great super-power you are wielding by proclaiming "everyone is looking for POWER!"

 

I must admit that most of the topics with 10 - 20 pages of posts are usually arguments about who's powerful, who's not, I'm more powerful than you - my master is better than yours etc... You'll find that many (if not most) of the Bums stay away from these threads...

 

These debates about power certainly get the emotional energies moving - why were you, yourself, moved to read all those topics and then make one of your very first posts here about power?

 

Then - quite unconsciously, I'm sure, you presuppose that you're in a position to judge what's Daoist and what's not!!! wow

 

I admit, this is all a bit tongue in cheek, but there are serious connotations.

Hidden within everything you think or say there are unconscious assumptions that to a trained eye reveal the current preoccupation of the ego. It becomes quite entertaining catching yourself at it - notice that by commenting about "everyone", and then telling us what fake Daoism and real Daoism really are, your ego positions you and your opinion as more true, more important, more correct than 'those power-hungry cultivators'. Nothing wrong with this, it's just that you might miss the irony and entertainment value of your very own mind!

 

Welcome to The Taobums!

 

[rain]

YMWong, you do seem quite sincere - but it also seems you don't yet realise the great super-power you are wielding by proclaiming "everyone is looking for POWER!"

 

I must admit that most of the topics with 10 - 20 pages of posts are usually arguments about who's powerful, who's not, I'm more powerful than you - my master is better than yours etc... You'll find that many (if not most) of the Bums stay away from these threads...

 

These debates about power certainly get the emotional energies moving - why were you, yourself, moved to read all those topics and then make one of your very first posts here about power?

 

Then - quite unconsciously, I'm sure, you presuppose that you're in a position to judge what's Daoist and what's not!!! wow

 

I admit, this is all a bit tongue in cheek, but there are serious connotations.

Hidden within everything you think or say there are unconscious assumptions that to a trained eye reveal the current preoccupation of the ego. It becomes quite entertaining catching yourself at it - notice that by commenting about "everyone", and then telling us what fake Daoism and real Daoism really are, your ego positions you and your opinion as more true, more important, more correct than 'those power-hungry cultivators'. Nothing wrong with this, it's just that you might miss the irony and entertainment value of your very own mind!

 

Welcome to The Taobums!

 

 

knowing you opponent is..

but knowing your self..

 

thanks freeform for being aware

Edited May 20, 2008 by rain

[sheng zhen]

Welcome to The Taobums!

 

hahaha

[dao zhen]

I am a student, and have only studied with one teacher deeply in these arts,

thus I can only offer a limited view and perhaps a partial picture of this whole process.

 

The act of "dreaming" is related to the pattern of the Metal conquering Wood;

Or the Po suppressing the Hun during the night.

 

The Po resides in the Lung Sphere and may be thought of in one regard as Metal Element.

 

Hun resides in the Liver Sphere, and may be thought of in one regard as Wood Element.

 

Po sponsors Death and has a relation to Jing.

 

Hun spsonsors Life and has a relationship to Soul.

 

When the Hun is suppressed by the Po at night during sleeping,

The Hun wanders away from the sphere of the liver, and the resulting experience is dreams.

 

As Jing is transformed into Qi, and the Hun is strengthened, there is less and less dream activity during the sleep state.

 

This will also reflect in the strengthening of Yang and the uprooting of Yin;

so many Yin quality will be transformed or uprooted.

 

I think the most important starting point is the Cleaning of the Heart Mind,

or to Still the Mind and Clean the Heart Mind of All Desire.

 

After this point, one may begin the process of transforming the Jing back to Qi.

 

This is the Stage of Burning the Slow Fire or Lighting the Fire.

 

There is a method and technique taught and a transmission given for this practice.

 

Later it becomes a very natural state; with no artificial method or technique used,

and takes place naturally.

 

Signs from this practice include:

 

~ an expansion and feeling much like a vast clear blue sky.

 

~ a steaming, or something heavy from below becoming light,

and rising up ward in an expansion that is full of a kind of bliss.

 

~ shrinking of the genital organ and the testicles after the transformation;

like the "ball" shrinks to a very small size if you feel it after practice.

 

~ mental stillness, and lack of dream activity.

 

Signs that the transformation was not done properly or enough:

 

~ The whole abdomen feels very wet, or damp, like there is something on the skin in the area and also something inside - but when you feel it, there is only dry skin.

 

~ A moving in the Dantian as you lie down to sleep, like a worm moving around.

 

~ much dream activity, and emission of the fluid in sleep.

 

After such a stage has been taken for a time, with Jing transforming back to Qi,

the Yang Qi will begin to be cultivated and harvested.

 

In my experience, as Yang Qi begins to come on the scene of the practice,

there can be light, strong dropping into a deep emptiness, erection,

and a great overwhelming heat and most notable is the loud vibration and roaring sound........

the sound that is outside, and inside, and a sound and a substance, with a feeling, vibration,

density and more.....

 

This sound is one of the main signs of the arrivalof Yang Qi.

 

When the Heart Mind has not been stilled and cleaned enough, there can be grasping and mental activity when the Yang Qi arrives.

 

This will lead to a great heat and a huge volume of sweat will usually pour off the body.

 

This is a sign that the Yang Qi has transformed to a physical or Post Heaven state, and is discharged and lost.

 

Yang Qi derives from the Emptiness that surrounds Heaven and Earth;

thus it is attracted to Emptiness.

 

So one of the aspects of the "timing" is to have "no timing" and to fall into the emptiness at the time of the arrival of the Yang Qi........

 

Usually one may use the "power" of the ears to "listen" and "follow" the sound......

 

Following it back to it's origin and root.

 

Around this time of practice one may begin to move into the Large Water Wheel state - or the begining of this process being started.

 

So the Yong Chuan will begin to pulse and vibrate along or in rhythm with this sound.

 

Also the Qi moves with such a strong force and surging motion, like it wants to run its own course and has its own idea of the course it wishes to take, along with the arrival of the Yang Qi.

 

It was taught that at this time, one should begin to practice "lying" on the back.

 

You lay down on the back, with the belly facing the ceiling, and let the qi run its course, and allowing the Yang Qi to arrive on the scene.

 

You forget all aspects of self.

 

You forget all aspects of the corporeal body.

 

You forget all aspects of ego.

 

You fall into the deep empty state, and allow the Qi to run its course freely from Yong Chuan to Bai Hui -

though really it has nothing to do with the corporeal body nor any location we may map or chart on the corporeal body and its related landmarks.

 

This is one aspect of sleeping practice.

 

You practice at night, and as it is not a difficult posture to hold, you may train for many, many hours in the night.

 

The first stages of:

 

Tempering the Heart and Cleansing of All Desire and Stray Thoughts

Transferal of Jing to Qi

Small Water Wheel

Harvest of Yang Qi

Large Water Wheel

 

All these stages can be done in the city, and while leading a normal life.

 

The stage of Incubation is the time one must move into an isolated place and live away from people and noise in order to complete.

 

I just came back from Huashan and spent time with my companion of tao there.

 

He trains in the sleeping practice of Huashan and the Dream Yoga.

 

We sleep in caves together, and he has never given any formal teachings or ideas about such a practice.

 

Just we lie down and face each other, and waves come over one, and states are experienced....

 

Deep states of emptiness, and profound Qi circulation.......

 

Like falling into an ocean, and then rising up into the sky, then expanding into the entire vastness of the sky.....

 

I asked him about "Sleep Practice" and he just laughed and said it is just the same as doing the "meditation" work, only you do it lying down..........

[sheng zhen]

 

I asked him about "Sleep Practice" and he just laughed and said it is just the same as doing the "meditation" work, only you do it lying down..........[/i]

Wonderful! Thank you so much. You are Master Sharer of Taobums, Dao Zhen. No one shares as well as you do

 

As usual in your posts there is so much to absorb I cannot comment on much other than what I immediatly recognice. Or what your words awaken in me, so to speak.

 

My experience with lucid dreaming, and pellucid dreaming, is that when I meditate before I go to sleep it is much easier to wake up in the dream. I used to do that a lot many years ago and had full control of my dreams every night. I had sex with everyone I wanted, could fly everywhere I wanted, change the dream in every way I wanted, I did all kinds of things. I even died at one point by choosing not to wake myself up in the middle of a falling dream. It all got boring after a while. So I started getting pellucid dreams, where I just let the dream go on and only interfere occationally. From there Ive deteriorated back to regular dreaming like I do now.

 

From what I can gather, based on my own experience and others teachings, the no-dream state means that you dont dream, you are still awake even though the body and brain is asleep. You do inner work as usual, cultivate your self as usual(meaning not like we do now, but like a master do it when he is at the level where he reaches the no-dream state..., I can only dream to imagine how it is done). And when you wake up you dont "return" to wakefulness. You dont awake, or go to sleep, because you are in the same state of awake awareness 24 hours a day. I guess the only difference from sleeping and waking is that while sleeping you dont do dishes or wash clothes with the body.

 

Dr. Joseph Dillard, creator of Dream Yoga(not Tibetian Dream Yoga, no), wrote me a letter a while ago explaning how enlighenment is not enlightenment if one is not enlightened even in ones dreams. Makes sense to me.

 

Its about transcending duality, both this reality and the dream reality, and enter into onness, where the awareness is never asleep or awake, just completely aware. This does not have anything to do with the psychosis many people experience from doing lucid dreaming techniques where one dont know what is real and what is not. It cannot be achived with one technique, but only though a totality of developement of ones entire being. It seems to be a natural state to enter at some point in our awakening evolution.

 

We wouldnt be fully aware if we go to sleep, would we. I would say that if we get fully aware, but then at some point go to sleep again, we werent fully aware in the first place. Only partial, still limited to space and time.

Edited May 20, 2008 by sheng zhen

[rain]

I am a student, and have only studied with one teacher deeply in these arts,

thus I can only offer a limited view and perhaps a partial picture of this whole process.

 

The act of "dreaming" is related to the pattern of the Metal conquering Wood;

Or the Po suppressing the Hun during the night.

 

The Po resides in the Lung Sphere and may be thought of in one regard as Metal Element.

 

Hun resides in the Liver Sphere, and may be thought of in one regard as Wood Element.

 

Po sponsors Death and has a relation to Jing.

 

Hun spsonsors Life and has a relationship to Soul.

 

When the Hun is suppressed by the Po at night during sleeping,

The Hun wanders away from the sphere of the liver, and the resulting experience is dreams.

 

As Jing is transformed into Qi, and the Hun is strengthened, there is less and less dream activity during the sleep state.

 

This will also reflect in the strengthening of Yang and the uprooting of Yin;

so many Yin quality will be transformed or uprooted.

 

I think the most important starting point is the Cleaning of the Heart Mind,

or to Still the Mind and Clean the Heart Mind of All Desire.

 

After this point, one may begin the process of transforming the Jing back to Qi.

 

This is the Stage of Burning the Slow Fire or Lighting the Fire.

 

There is a method and technique taught and a transmission given for this practice.

 

Later it becomes a very natural state; with no artificial method or technique used,

and takes place naturally.

 

Signs from this practice include:

 

~ an expansion and feeling much like a vast clear blue sky.

 

~ a steaming, or something heavy from below becoming light,

and rising up ward in an expansion that is full of a kind of bliss.

 

~ shrinking of the genital organ and the testicles after the transformation;

like the "ball" shrinks to a very small size if you feel it after practice.

 

~ mental stillness, and lack of dream activity.

 

Signs that the transformation was not done properly or enough:

 

~ The whole abdomen feels very wet, or damp, like there is something on the skin in the area and also something inside - but when you feel it, there is only dry skin.

 

~ A moving in the Dantian as you lie down to sleep, like a worm moving around.

 

~ much dream activity, and emission of the fluid in sleep.

 

After such a stage has been taken for a time, with Jing transforming back to Qi,

the Yang Qi will begin to be cultivated and harvested.

 

In my experience, as Yang Qi begins to come on the scene of the practice,

there can be light, strong dropping into a deep emptiness, erection,

and a great overwhelming heat and most notable is the loud vibration and roaring sound........

the sound that is outside, and inside, and a sound and a substance, with a feeling, vibration,

density and more.....

 

This sound is one of the main signs of the arrivalof Yang Qi.

 

When the Heart Mind has not been stilled and cleaned enough, there can be grasping and mental activity when the Yang Qi arrives.

 

This will lead to a great heat and a huge volume of sweat will usually pour off the body.

 

This is a sign that the Yang Qi has transformed to a physical or Post Heaven state, and is discharged and lost.

 

Yang Qi derives from the Emptiness that surrounds Heaven and Earth;

thus it is attracted to Emptiness.

 

So one of the aspects of the "timing" is to have "no timing" and to fall into the emptiness at the time of the arrival of the Yang Qi........

 

Usually one may use the "power" of the ears to "listen" and "follow" the sound......

 

Following it back to it's origin and root.

 

Around this time of practice one may begin to move into the Large Water Wheel state - or the begining of this process being started.

 

So the Yong Chuan will begin to pulse and vibrate along or in rhythm with this sound.

 

Also the Qi moves with such a strong force and surging motion, like it wants to run its own course and has its own idea of the course it wishes to take, along with the arrival of the Yang Qi.

 

It was taught that at this time, one should begin to practice "lying" on the back.

 

You lay down on the back, with the belly facing the ceiling, and let the qi run its course, and allowing the Yang Qi to arrive on the scene.

 

You forget all aspects of self.

 

You forget all aspects of the corporeal body.

 

You forget all aspects of ego.

 

You fall into the deep empty state, and allow the Qi to run its course freely from Yong Chuan to Bai Hui -

though really it has nothing to do with the corporeal body nor any location we may map or chart on the corporeal body and its related landmarks.

 

This is one aspect of sleeping practice.

 

You practice at night, and as it is not a difficult posture to hold, you may train for many, many hours in the night.

 

The first stages of:

 

Tempering the Heart and Cleansing of All Desire and Stray Thoughts

Transferal of Jing to Qi

Small Water Wheel

Harvest of Yang Qi

Large Water Wheel

 

All these stages can be done in the city, and while leading a normal life.

 

The stage of Incubation is the time one must move into an isolated place and live away from people and noise in order to complete.

 

I just came back from Huashan and spent time with my companion of tao there.

 

He trains in the sleeping practice of Huashan and the Dream Yoga.

 

We sleep in caves together, and he has never given any formal teachings or ideas about such a practice.

 

Just we lie down and face each other, and waves come over one, and states are experienced....

 

Deep states of emptiness, and profound Qi circulation.......

 

Like falling into an ocean, and then rising up into the sky, then expanding into the entire vastness of the sky.....

 

I asked him about "Sleep Practice" and he just laughed and said it is just the same as doing the "meditation" work, only you do it lying down..........

 

thank you ever so much.

[YMWong]

Then - quite unconsciously, I'm sure, you presuppose that you're in a position to judge what's Daoist and what's not!!!

 

I have opinions which I may or may not voice out.

 

I form my own opinions on practice and study, if you think what I said is wrong I am eager to hear yours.

 

Thanks

 

YM

 

PS: and by the way, in case you wonder ... no, I don't levitate, set paper on fire, pass through wall or disappear at will - so hopefully the discussion is not about me

Edited May 20, 2008 by YMWong

[Spectrum]

follow the yellow brick road

 

 

[neidan practitioner]

So many of other powers are harmless and help our lives. We can make an automobile a tank or an ambulance car? It is a tired argument.

 

Hi Trash Filter,

 

Speaking of tanks, just look around the world to see what happens when people seeking power,

or fame and fortune, get some sort of means to carry out their desires.

I think, there is a good reason that certain higher esoteric teachings have been kept hidden over the

centuries, and why traditionally those practicing those higher esoteric practices have sought out remote

places to practice their arts, and why these higher levels of the practices were only taught to a select few

who proved themselves to be of a high enough moral character to be trusted with the knowledge.

At any rate, I was just expressing my point of view on the matter, and I am not really interested

in dwelling on it. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view, of course. This is really drifting

off topic from the main theme of the thread anyway, which was more about those seeking power,

and fame and fortune who are willing to throw themselves at questionable masters in hopes

of finding a shortcut to their goals. Such has been the way of the world througout history. We live,

and we hopefully learn something along the way.

[shidoin]

I agree with the initial post that powers, whether physical or mental/psychological, have bugger all to do with the flow. In fact we have all been warned time and time again not to abuse personal power. Cultivating Occult powers is a trap for the ego and although this does not result in anything so bullshit as soul-lose it can and does eventually result in massive damage to the ego. If you've ever visited a secure psychiatric ward you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

I have on occasion talked to people that can lucid dream and they tell me how they would love to be able to achieve such a state at will. I of course point out that the blurring of this world with the dream world (astral/bardo/loka) can end in schizophrenia.

 

As I've said in other posts here I have experienced/had many occult powers although I choose to not develop them. The only ability I still have, which I think all people have to a greater or lesser extent, is to see prana. Look at the blue sky on a sunny day and hold a finger about twelve inches away from your face and you should be able to see bright sparks spinning around each other. I've never been given a modern scientific explanation for this phenomena although there may well be one.

 

Anyway, as said occult powers are an ego trap, if not an ego trip, so it's much better to spend your time learning a musical instrument but please don't yearn to be famous as that's just another trap!

 

Cool you see those too (little spinning lights or sparks) Ed the guy who created coral castle talks about them to. He says the are magnetic or cosmic energy that keeps us alive. I think they are what we contain in or bodies that we call Chi. every living thing emits it and it is in the air

[freeform]

YM,

 

You say you have oppinions - I say that when you give importance to oppinions you sell yourself short - you're so much more than that!

 

Of course I have my own opinions, but I tend not to take them seriously. My opinions are so extremely limited, so extremely coloured, shaped and manipulated by the mess that is the ego that they cease to hold any reasonable value... Over time, as I progress with my practice, my opinions have become much less certain, much less 'true' and important and much more entertaining ironic and silly!

 

Since we're talking of power - The ego thinks itself as all powerful - the judgements we make within our opinions are a subtle way of exercising that power. The ego is also rather sneaky (which is great for the entertainment value!) - it can denounce power whilst covertly asserting its own power... (you must be in a position of authority/power to be able to denounce anything - right?)

 

In this very post that I'm writing my own ego is flexing its muscle - it's portraying itself as some sort of an authority - but the other, deeper aspects of myself can see this happening and be present to it and maybe even find it funny (if not funny then rather tragic). The impulse to write this post came from a deeper place than the ego - it's a place that loves unconditionally and I'm suggesting that the impulse for your original post also came from the same depth, it's just that you got distracted by the shallow, surface reaction of your ego...

 

Imagine that deeper aspect of yourself to be like the filament in a lightbulb - it glows and creates light - the light must then pass through the outer glass of the bulb, and then through a whole series of lenses and filters that is our ego - the light that comes out at the end is dim, coloured and distorted, projecting all the dirt and dust that covers the lenses and the filters. I'm interested in the light of the filament - not the distortions - and I'm challenging your ego a little so that a little more light can get through...

 

All this might seem off topic, but in a way I'm attempting to demonstrate the difference between power that's directed by the mind and Power that comes from the heart...

 

[nightwatchdog]

 

All this might seem off topic, but in a way I'm attempting to demonstrate the difference between power that's directed by the mind and Power that comes from the heart...

 

 

Excellent. The ego can be a useful tool, but when the work is done, it should be set down. Who wants to carry around a jack-hammer with a broken "on/off" switch all day?

Edited May 21, 2008 by nightwatchdog

[Jedi777]

Hi Trash Filter,

 

Speaking of tanks, just look around the world to see what happens when people seeking power,

or fame and fortune, get some sort of means to carry out their desires.

I think, there is a good reason that certain higher esoteric teachings have been kept hidden over the

centuries, and why traditionally those practicing those higher esoteric practices have sought out remote

places to practice their arts, and why these higher levels of the practices were only taught to a select few

who proved themselves to be of a high enough moral character to be trusted with the knowledge.

At any rate, I was just expressing my point of view on the matter, and I am not really interested

in dwelling on it. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view, of course. This is really drifting

off topic from the main theme of the thread anyway, which was more about those seeking power,

and fame and fortune who are willing to throw themselves at questionable masters in hopes

of finding a shortcut to their goals. Such has been the way of the world througout history. We live,

and we hopefully learn something along the way.

Its solar prana

[YMWong]

You say you have oppinions - I say that when you give importance to oppinions you sell [...]

 

Nieh Ch'ueh asked Wang Ni, "Do you know what all things agree in calling right?"

 

"How would I know that?" said Wang Ni.

 

"Do you know that you don't know it?"

 

"How would I know that?"

 

"Then do things know nothing?"

 

"How would I know that? However, suppose I try saying something. What way do I have of knowing that if I say I know something I don't really not know it? Or what way do I have of knowing that if I say I don't know something I don't really in fact know it? Now let me ask you some questions. If a man sleeps in a damp place, his back aches and he ends up half paralyzed, but is this true of a loach? If he lives in a tree, he is terrified and shakes with fright, but is this true of a monkey? Of these three creatures, then, which one knows the proper place to live? Men eat the flesh of grass-fed and grain-fed animals, deer eat grass, centipedes find snakes tasty, and hawks and falcons relish mice. Of these four, which knows how food ought to taste? Monkeys pair with monkeys, deer go out with deer, and fish play around with fish. Men claim that Mao-ch'iang and Lady Li were beautiful, but if fish saw them they would dive to the bottom of the stream, if birds saw them they would fly away, and if deer saw them they would break into a run. Of these four, which knows how to fix the standard of beauty for the world? The way I see it, the rules of benevolence and righteousness and the paths of right and wrong are all hopelessly snarled and jumbled. How could I know anything about such discriminations?"

 

Nieh Ch'ueh said, "If you don't know what is profitable or harmful, then does the Perfect Man likewise know nothing of such things?"

 

Wang Ni replied, "The Perfect Man is godlike. Though the great swamps blaze, they cannot burn him; though the great rivers freeze, they cannot chill him; though swift lightning splits the hills and howling gales shake the sea, they cannot frighten him. A man like this rides the clouds and mist, straddles the sun and moon, and wanders beyond the four seas. Even life and death have no effect on him, much less the rules of profit and loss!"

[Jedi777]

when you reach Emptiness you will be filled....

[Trash Filter]

when you reach Emptiness you will be filled....

 

Indeed

 

When your mind is full of crap, constantly arguing and analysing pretty philosophical circling you never can truly comprehend human supernatural powers or divine, and can only complain, use a lot of fancy words and judge on a level equivalent to the average person.