Rudi Authentic Neigong

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Sadly you still expect qi to be some magical uknown particle, it isn't, we just call it something else, many of the qi phenomena have been studied by fringe scientists for years, people just don't put things together because different terminology has been used. Tesla and rife and so many others.

 

I don't think I was expecting a particle to be found, honestly if anything is discovered I have no idea what it would be, even more honestly my default assumption is that its still just terminology to explain functions, but IF something is discovered that has previously not been discovered I think that would be fascinating. 

[senseless virtue]

53 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Honestly as an acupuncturist I would find it very interesting if qi could be proven to exist.

 

See my old post here:

 

 

There are many ways to study and approach the qi phenomenon and how the human energy-body works. I've also read of cultivators in Germany using infrared video cameras to capture how the body reacts to higher training.

Edited December 8, 2023 by senseless virtue

[小梦想]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

I don't think I was expecting a particle to be found, honestly if anything is discovered I have no idea what it would be, even more honestly my default assumption is that its still just terminology to explain functions, but IF something is discovered that has previously not been discovered I think that would be fascinating. 

That is my point, they won't find anything that has not been previously discovered or known, they will just realize we lacked the proper understanding to put TCM theory and physiology together. Qi is a thing though, not a function, 

A good example is zhenqi and xieqi, they refer to very specific things, not function. Even if the things are technically the same but slightly different, again, one day this will make sense I am sure.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, 小梦想 said:

That is my point, they won't find anything that has not been previously discovered or known, they will just realize we lacked the proper understanding to put TCM theory and physiology together. Qi is a thing though, not a function, 

A good example is zhenqi and xieqi, they refer to very specific things, not function. Even if the things are technically the same but slightly different, again, one day this will make sense I am sure.

 

This is the primary question of interest to me! I'm not sure about that, but it's one of those things that if proven wrong I would be happy lol. 

[wandelaar]

Will take some time for me to read all the links...

 

[小梦想]

14 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

This is the primary question of interest to me! I'm not sure about that, but it's one of those things that if proven wrong I would be happy lol. 

How would qi be a function though? Many things in tcm are functions and substance combined into one term, like yuanqi, or jing, but qi, how would qi be a function. It's like calling petrol a function, or the gas and heat released from combustion a function.

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

How would qi be a function though? Many things in tcm are functions and substance combined into one term, like yuanqi, or jing, but qi, how would qi be a function. It's like calling petrol a function, or the gas and heat released from combustion a function.

 

For example there is a term Stomach or Spleen qi. This term relates to how well (or not) someone's digestion functions. Spleen qi deficiency typically translates to poor or weak digestion, so thus a function as opposed to a thing. The same principle applies to the term Lung qi deficiency which usually translates to respiratory function, as opposed to a "thing".   

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

For example there is a term Stomach or Spleen qi. This term relates to how well (or not) someone's digestion functions. Spleen qi deficiency typically translates to poor or weak digestion, so thus a function as opposed to a thing. The same principle applies to the term Lung qi deficiency which usually translates to respiratory function, as opposed to a "thing".   

Qi as a function like ‘healthy vitality’ makes sense to me from the character, 氣 = 气 + 米 (air + rice).

 

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Cobie

[小梦想]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

For example there is a term Stomach or Spleen qi. This term relates to how well (or not) someone's digestion functions. Spleen qi deficiency typically translates to poor or weak digestion, so thus a function as opposed to a thing. The same principle applies to the term Lung qi deficiency which usually translates to respiratory function, as opposed to a "thing".   

Yes, you are correct in what you are saying but you are referring to pattern differentiation here. Terms like spleen qi deficiency or lung qi deficiency are primarily accepted as function.

Spleen qi deficiency and qi are different things though. Lunq qi deficiency and Kong qi are not the same thing. Same with stomach qi deficiency and gu qi. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by 小梦想

[小梦想]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Qi as something like ‘healthy vitality’ makes sense to me from the character, 氣 = 气 + 米 (air + rice).

No apology or acknowledgment of jumping the gun for your misunderstanding and subsequent undeserved "aggression" towards me earlier?

[ChiDragon]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Spleen qi deficiency typically translates to poor or weak digestion, so thus a function as opposed to a thing

What do you all think about this?
The spleen qi is weak! 

Edited December 8, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Maddie]

25 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

What do you all think about this?
The spleen qi is weak! 

 

The spleen is weak = spleen qi deficiency = weak digestion = low energy

Edited December 8, 2023 by Maddie

[ChiDragon]

45 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

The spleen is weak = spleen qi deficiency = weak digestion = low energy

Yes, it also could be meant that the spleen is malfunction(脾氣虛).

[Cobie]

.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Cobie said:

臟 (Western medicine, anatomy) spleen

Sorry, anatomy is 解剖学
臟 is human internal organs
脾臟 is spleen
心臟 is heart

Edited December 9, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, it also could be meant that the spleen is malfunction(脾氣虛).

 

Usually spleen in TCM just refers to the entire digestive system and not so much the actually physical spleen organ. There is a term close to malfunction which is called "rebellious spleen qi" which is a nice way of saying someone is vomiting. 

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon thanks. I deleted my post. 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

40 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Usually spleen in TCM just refers to the entire digestive system and not so much the actually physical spleen organ. There is a term close to malfunction which is called "rebellious spleen qi" which is a nice way of saying someone is vomiting. 

Yes, I know where you are coming from. I know a Chinese acupuncturist, Qiu Zhuoyi( 邱卓嶷 ), who teaches TCM in Santa Monica, California. He also practice western medicine. My wife went to him for an unknown illness that was unrecognized in western medicine. He treated her with both herbs and acupuncture for few months. One visit per week. My wife's problem went away.

He told me there are two versions of teaching courses. One is for westerners and the other is for Chinese. The reason for that is some Chinese terms are hard to be explained in English. Thus they have to come up with a set of TCM language that the English speakers would be easily understood. The Chinese terminologies are very broad and inclusive. However, as long as the contextual meaning was understood is suitable.

Edited December 9, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, I know where you are coming from. I know a Chinese acupuncturist, Qiu Zhuoyi( 邱卓嶷 ), who teaches TCM in Santa Monica, California. He also practice western medicine. My wife went to him for an unknown illness that was unrecognized in western medicine. He treated her with both herbs and acupuncture for few months. One visit per week. My wife's problem went away.

He told me there are two versions of teaching courses. One is for westerners and the other is for Chinese. The reason for that is some Chinese terms are hard to be explained in English. Thus they have to come up with a set of TCM language that the English speakers would be easily understood. The Chinese terminologies are very broad and inclusive. However, as long as the contextual meaning was understood is suitable.

 

I'm thinking if I had been able to go to that school it would have been much easier!! lol. Our school was hard. It was all professors from China and Taiwan that blasted us with Chinese terminology and didn't care that we suffered lol. 

[Cobie]

57 minutes ago, Maddie said:

… spleen in TCM just refers to the entire digestive system …

Thanks, that’s interesting. 
 

 

[wandelaar]

12 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Will take some time for me to read all the links...

 

Results:

 

Only the article Acute Physiological and Psychological Effects of Qigong Exercise in Older Practitioners is relevant to the subject of internal electrical chi. However as noted in the article itself:

 

Quote

The present study had some limitations. First, this is a
one-group, pre- and postcomparison study. This study lacked
control group of sham intervention to evaluate the placebo
effect in this study. Second, the participants were older prac-
titioners; therefore, future studies are suggested to elucidate
the effects of qigong exercise across different age groups.
Third, blood pressure data were not evaluated and thus the
influence of blood pressure on the results was unknown.
Fourth, substantial time has to be invested for learning and
practicing these mind-body techniques. Fifth, to generalize
these findings, further studies using larger sample sizes
and/or different kinds of qigong are required. The present
findings might be generalized only to older populations who
are more health conscious with practicing specific type of
qigong exercise, such as Chinese Bioenergy Qigong.

 

The conclusion of the article is:

 

Quote

One session of qigong exercise increased meridian electrical
conductance, reduced anxiety, and improved balance in both
the autonomic nervous system and the body overall. In
conclusion, these findings provide scientific evidence for
the acute physiological and psychological effects of qigong
exercise in older practitioners. According to the results of
this study, Chinese Bioenergy Qigong may be considered
as one of the complementary therapies accompanied with
conventional medicine to treat the patients with autonomic
dysfunction or anxiety. More researches in the future are
encouraged to investigate into the possible effects of Chinese
Bioenergy Qigong on improving various pathological func-
tions in different population.

 

So what do we learn about the possibility or impossibility of externalized chi phenomena? Nothing. I tend to agree with the idea that internal chi is just another way of describing phenomena that are known under other names in western medicine. That is as long as no extraordinary phenomena of externalized chi are shown to exist that defy explanation in terms of western science.

 

The links to quantum mechanical findings in experiments with photons and electrons show how weird things become when you operate with very small particles of matter and light. Quantum entanglements and the like. So indeed one should be careful with definitely ruling things out as impossible. But do they supply a way to understand electric chi phenomena? Maybe or maybe not. A lot of dots need to be filled in to connect the quantum world to chi. And filling in those dots is exactly what solid scientific theory construction is all about. Asking your readers to fill in the dots for themselves won't do it.

 

The article Breath-Hold Diving – The Physiology of Diving Deep and Returning proves that training will help one achieve things that are impossible for untrained persons. But this is no surprise. The crucial thing here is how far one can go in this way. And again nothing about electrical chi.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

14 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

For example there is a term Stomach or Spleen qi. This term relates to how well (or not) someone's digestion functions. Spleen qi deficiency typically translates to poor or weak digestion, so thus a function as opposed to a thing. The same principle applies to the term Lung qi deficiency which usually translates to respiratory function, as opposed to a "thing".   

The key word here is “deficiency”, which indicates that there is a function. Simply saying “speen qi” or “lung qi” does not make it a function. 

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

The key word here is “deficiency”, which indicates that there is a function. Simply saying “speen qi” or “lung qi” does not make it a function. 

 

Spleen qi is the primary term to describe overall Digestive Health. Call that what you will.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Maddie

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

The key word here is “deficiency”, which indicates that there is a function. Simply saying “speen qi” or “lung qi” does not make it a function. 

 

By the inclusive TCM definition, besides it is the system, it was understood that qi is also implicated the function of an organ.