What do you train

[Maddie]

41 minutes ago, Mig said:

How do you know that Karate developed during that time. I thought Karate was systematized in Okinawa in the 17th century ?? Just wondering

 

Karate went thought its own evolution. Originally it evolved in 17th century Okinawa as a self defense system after some Okinawans went to China and learned White Krane Kung Fu and then made their own adaptations in Okinawa. Then fast forwarding to the early 1920's, news reels of boxing matches made their way to Japan and the people were mesmerized as Japan didn't really have a proper striking art. The reason for that is Jujitsu was designed to be used on a battle field where everyone was using armor so it made no sense to develop unarmed striking. 

  So after the Japanese people became familiar with boxing they began to look for their own "Japanese" striking art. They found that on the island of Okinawa which was a part of Japan, there was a martial art that we know of today as Karate that had striking. So they decided to invite a few Karate masters to mainland Japan to teach but since the Japanese people were interested in the sport of boxing and not self defense Karate was modified into a striking sport and a lot of the grappling aspect that was organic to it was lost. 

 

*I was a history major in collage, so yeah I'm a nerd lol 🤓

Edited December 11, 2023 by Maddie

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

Karate went thought its own evolution. Originally it evolved in 17th century Okinawa as a self defense system after some Okinawans went to China and learned White Krane Kung Fu and then made their own adaptations in Okinawa. Then fast forwarding to the early 1920's, news reels of boxing matches made their way to Japan and the people were mesmerized as Japan didn't really have a proper striking art. The reason for that is Jujitsu was designed to be used on a battle field where everyone was using armor so it made no sense to develop unarmed striking. 

  So after the Japanese people became familiar with boxing they began to look for their own "Japanese" striking art. They found that on the island of Okinawa which was a part of Japan, there was a martial art that we know of today as Karate that had striking. So they decided to invite a few Karate masters to mainland Japan to teach but since the Japanese people were interested in the sport of boxing and not self defense Karate was modified into a striking sport and a lot of the grappling aspect that was organic to it was lost. 

 

*I was a history major in collage, so yeah I'm a nerd lol 🤓

 

Yeah, armor is good against strikes , but once you are down in heavy armor it can be hard to get back up , especially when you be getting hammered by a battle axe or something  while you are down there .

 

There is a dynamic that you missed out .  The Meiji restoration   (  1860s onwards ) . This ended the Feudal / Samurai system  and all of a sudden a lot of people where displaced , especially in class and had to seek other work . For example , the founder of a style I studied for years *  'Bushi' Matsamura  Soken  had been the personal bodyguard of  the Emperor/s  and after  this there where no  'private militias ' ,  Emperor's and bodyguards needed .   And the third down the line in this martial inheritance , Hohan Soken , one of the last born Samurai, before it was disbanded ,  moved to Argentina to find work .   But  not all  'military' people found work, some went to farming .  Then someone had the bright idea to use karate , in a highly adapted form , as an exercise routine,  a physical education program  in Okinawan primary schools .

 

Of course it had to be adapted , you cant have kids disabling each other, so  many techniques where changed , not taught, or different ones focused on and also this developer did not really know the old system .  

 

Eg ;  'Soto- uke' ,  ' outside block ' is now taught to be a 'block'   ( but look up what the words actually mean  )  against a mid level attack by sweeping the fore arm across the body and deflecting the line of the attacking  fist or foot .  An earlier version  ( and much more disabling ) is to sweep the strike aside with the opposite hand as you move out the way and making the same motion with your arm as you do in soto uke , but it led with the ring finger knuckle point  to make a whipping strike into the others wrist at LI 11 or similar.

 

I have not seen the 'reverse back hand '  roundhouse  whip kick  to the liver  with the point of the big toe anywhere in modern karate , that used to be specialty in old school style  ( although  savate seems to have a similar one ) .  The 'head but' seems to have disappeared .... unless you get caught up in a 'soccer riot'  . 

 

[ I remember once  'the '  senior aikido guy using me as a partner in a demo of a technique  ( I used to cross train, going to different MAs and clubs ) , he demonstrated one badly, on purpose, to show its faults and asked me what my first reaction would be ; he was trying to do something to me with one hand / arm , a sort of pulling me towards him , his head was unguarded and leaning towards me , so I just let him pull me in and motioned to head butt him in the face , I didnt actually do it of course , but he was totally open and actually 'encouraging ' me to do it  by his positioning .  he immediately stopped, threw his hands up in the air and exclaimed to the class " Ohhh great !  The head butt ... that  says a lot about his character ."  and the class and other 'seniors' tut-tutted me  .  Aikido has a lot of ....... ' manners' ... in class .  ]

 

recently I had a fight ( friendly)  with a 'kid' I know , he is in early 30s now . A bit of a  rough and tumble type . He didnt want to train as such ( I  am not doing anything that doesnt work 'on the street' ) , yet still he tried a lot of complicated kicks  that he did pick up from karate or kick boxing , I am sure some might have worked on the 'unsuspecting street fighter' .  But you could see why they might not work against 'old school' style (or anyone that can think it up and do it  ) ; I just kept kicking and kneeing the attacking limb or foot as it came in or winded up .  He got long ganglky arms and legs , good reach .  But I did the same to his arms  ( softly ) .  he did alright though, managed to get one  hold and body slam on me , thankfully , the last part of it  was gentle - last time I got smashed into the ground, and landed on and ended up with intercostal  rib separation .... ouch ! 

 

And no doubt, some of those techniques where useful anyway , at times, one finds one does 'block' or do whats best or whatever you can in a 'tight' situation .

 

-   This change became so prominent in their culture that when Hohan Soken ( an old school karate master ) finally returned to Okinawa and watched some people exercising he asked what they where doing . When told it was karate he was ...  ' Noooo .'

 

Then two further dynamics  ( for the historian    )   WWII  .... some Americans come along to your totally bombed out and murdered  island , that they did , and then ask you to teach them their secret fighting techniques ?   I dont know why that dynamic is considered an accurate 'transmission ?   A lot did teach to try and get money to feed their starving families , but why would they show them 'the right stuff' ? 

 

Then on top of that, it got changed into a sport !  with all sorts of rules and restrictions .

 

However in the last couple of decades  there has been some reverse engineering , with some groups  exploring  this aspect or from a self defense / 'street fighting'  aspect .  And the rare group might still hold some of the original styles , outwardly or inwardly ( meaning its not taught but you can figure it out after a lot of study and research .  )

 

* I can relate just about all of this to 'crane movements' and often use that analogy in teaching , giving my own descriptions  to techniques ;  open and close wings , sweep wing back , crane legs ; deflecting and blocking , feet ; kicking and striking (also with toes ; the ' claw' ), 'crane beak'  etc . Plus two 'forms '   ; 'hakatsuru'  ( crane form,  I only know 1 , it seems a recent development as it has some techniques that appear in earlier katas  or 'original' kata  - Kusanku. But there where 3 at least which now appear to have been lost ) and Rohai ( technically a 'Heron' form but ... close enough ) .

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, Nungali said:

This change became so prominent in their culture that when Hohan Soken ( an old school karate master ) finally returned to Okinawa and watched some people exercising he asked what they where doing . When told it was karate he was ...  ' Noooo .'

 

I think one of the biggest things that got lost from Karate as well as Kung Fu were the grappling techniques which were originally part of both. I strongly believe this is why when the early UFC's and Gracie challenges happened TMA that were striking based like Karate and Kung Fu were dominated by BJJ (Brazilian Jujitsu). 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Maddie

[Sanity Check]

What was up with old school karate masters.

 

Who would walk into the woods and kill a wild boar with their bare hands.

 

Was that a legitimate thing?

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I think one of the biggest things that got lost from Karate as well as Kung Fu were the grappling techniques which were originally part of both. I strongly believe this is why when the early UFC's and Gracie challenges happened TMA that were striking based like Karate and Kung Fu were dominated by BJJ (Brazilian Jujitsu). 

 

Indeed . The old style I did , the applications of moves often  where  often a take down or 'grappling' but not much 'ground work' whereas the modern style sees those same moves as applying to strikes and blocks   .  But Okinawan karate originally  was formed from a blend of indigenous  fighting, Okinawan' wrestling' and 'Chinese Hand ' ( Chinese boxing- the original form of karate meant 'Chinese hand' but the Japs changed the meaning to 'empty hand ' ) .

 

The Gracie story is an interesting one , that big PA challenge ( to kickstart the Gracie cult and family business ) was a set up  ( eg they were all mismatched and restricted by  the special rules  established for those bouts . It impressed the general public , but not those 'in the know' .)

 

It was a huge scam ! and it made BJJ appear the top style .... until 'The Gracie Hunter' came along    ... lets see how you guys go against an all round , top quality striker , with a karate and 'ground work'  background that isnt set up and controlled by the Gracie team and conditions ..... that got Pop Gracie's blood boiling ... you can see it on his face when he shakes 'Gracies hunters' hand .. after he beat his kids up .

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Indeed . The old style I did , the applications of moves often  where  often a take down or 'grappling' but not much 'ground work' whereas the modern style sees those same moves as applying to strikes and blocks   .  But Okinawan karate originally  was formed from a blend of indigenous  fighting, Okinawan' wrestling' and 'Chinese Hand ' ( Chinese boxing- the original form of karate meant 'Chinese hand' but the Japs changed the meaning to 'empty hand ' ) .

 

The Gracie story is an interesting one , that big PA challenge ( to kickstart the Gracie cult and family business ) was a set up  ( eg they were all mismatched and restricted by  the special rules  established for those bouts . It impressed the general public , but not those 'in the know' .)

 

It was a huge scam ! and it made BJJ appear the top style .... until 'The Gracie Hunter' came along    ... lets see how you guys go against an all round , top quality striker , with a karate and 'ground work'  background that isnt set up and controlled by the Gracie team and conditions ..... that got Pop Gracie's blood boiling ... you can see it on his face when he shakes 'Gracies hunters' hand .. after he beat his kids up .

 

One thing that has come out of the MMA movement is what in my opinion is a rediscovery of what the traditional martial arts originally were by my best guess. I like how MMA pressure tests stuff and sifts through a bunch of delusion and finds what really works in real life in the real world. I like applying this concept with anything really. 

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

What was up with old school karate masters.

 

Who would walk into the woods and kill a wild boar with their bare hands.

 

Was that a legitimate thing?

 

I dont see why .... they had spears .  yes that would be foolish ... are you sure people did that ?

 

However , one can see things like the King's bodyguards in Okinawa ;  people where not allowed to have weapons , yet the Japanese came with their weapons and the Americans with their guns  ( Commander Perry ) . hernce anything 'on hand' was trained to be a weapon.  The Okinawan 'gentry' ( sorta like 'knights' ) where permitted to carry a tesan , a small metal belt hanging thing in the shape of a fan ... against swords and guns ??? What they needed to develop was a 'hand system' and some smart tactics . For example in the old engraving of Commander Perry meeting the Okinawan King , much can be made out ;  The Americans are standing about , armed  with guns , in the court .  The royal  court is assembled for reception . One can make out the tactics if one can read the image  and have the knowledge ; either side of the king are his two 'assistants ' sitting there, writing and watching (  who are also his two personal bodyguards ) ;  Matsamura and Itiso  - two renown martial arts masters . Around are scattered other assistants with certain 'jobs' .  If the shit hits the fan , the first priority is to get the king out the back door behind the throne . The two body guards would go with him or take him there , others nearby close in and make a protective wall for this , maybe a wall against bullets . They also have practiced certain forms and fighting to this - 'against the wall ' , other rush out into the middle and cause chaos ... another set of forms and battle . This might explain some of the 'reckless'  techniques in some forms ... that is dangerous to the practitioner ... but in this, the kings safety is paramount, not some court 'pawn' .

 

These where the more practical considerations of the times . Just like if one wanted pork for dinner , you would take friends and spears . very foolish to get injured in an activity  that impacts your daily life, income and family security .

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

One thing that has come out of the MMA movement is what in my opinion is a rediscovery of what the traditional martial arts originally were by my best guess. I like how MMA pressure tests stuff and sifts through a bunch of delusion and finds what really works in real life in the real world. I like applying this concept with anything really. 

 

To a point ... as MMA has some restrictive rules .

 

The amounts of times I been in a clash and the other crouches or through another similar dynamic, they expose the back part of the head and neck to you  ......   but you are not allowed hit that 'under rules', also the no 'groin attack ' .....  oh dear ,  that leaves people with the bad habit of coming in with an open groin , like some do their roundhouse kick .   They would be down in a moment in a street fight .

 

A mate wanted a technique against a belligerent boxer at his work. The guy was always wanting to show people stuff, and worse when he was drunk . he became a bit 'fearsome and annoying' . After he 'come on, lets have a go'  a few times at my mate and my mate politely refused , but he came on anyway , a light eye flick with the finger stopped him . he was totally freaked out , now bully boxer is " Dont fight that guy , he is crazy !  he nearly took my eye out ! "  .....  well, he said no three times !  The guy spent a LOT of time training ... in the ring, under rules, with gloves or mitts on .

 

However. MMA gives you real experience in being 'fighting fit ' and 'gettin smashed'  and getting straight back into it if you can . if you never been hit 'good'  before, it can come as  a real shock the first time   

[Sanity Check]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I dont see why .... they had spears .  yes that would be foolish ... are you sure people did that ?

 

However , one can see things like the King's bodyguards in Okinawa ;  people where not allowed to have weapons , yet the Japanese came with their weapons and the Americans with their guns  ( Commander Perry ) . hernce anything 'on hand' was trained to be a weapon.  The Okinawan 'gentry' ( sorta like 'knights' ) where permitted to carry a tesan , a small metal belt hanging thing in the shape of a fan ... against swords and guns ??? What they needed to develop was a 'hand system' and some smart tactics . For example in the old engraving of Commander Perry meeting the Okinawan King , much can be made out ;  The Americans are standing about , armed  with guns , in the court .  The royal  court is assembled for reception . One can make out the tactics if one can read the image  and have the knowledge ; either side of the king are his two 'assistants ' sitting there, writing and watching (  who are also his two personal bodyguards ) ;  Matsamura and Itiso  - two renown martial arts masters . Around are scattered other assistants with certain 'jobs' .  If the shit hits the fan , the first priority is to get the king out the back door behind the throne . The two body guards would go with him or take him there , others nearby close in and make a protective wall for this , maybe a wall against bullets . They also have practiced certain forms and fighting to this - 'against the wall ' , other rush out into the middle and cause chaos ... another set of forms and battle . This might explain some of the 'reckless'  techniques in some forms ... that is dangerous to the practitioner ... but in this, the kings safety is paramount, not some court 'pawn' .

 

These where the more practical considerations of the times . Just like if one wanted pork for dinner , you would take friends and spears . very foolish to get injured in an activity  that impacts your daily life, income and family security .

 

 

...

 

Quote

 

Mas Oyama – Founder of Kyokushin Karate

Mas Oyama’s Bull Fights

When he returned, he decided that he wanted to take on the ultimate challenge in a life-and-death contest so he undertook a series of fifty-two fights against bulls, with his bare hands. On three occasions the bulls were killed instantly by his strikes and forty-nine had their horns taken clean off by his knife-hand strike. 

 

While this seems a little untoward to the modern reader due to the cruelty to animals aspect, it must be remembered that this was in the 1950s and people had a totally different mentality then and that the animals he fought were also all ready for slaughter so would have died anyway. As a feat of strength, bravery and a demonstration of devastating technique, Sensei Mas Oyama’s bull fights are unparalleled. That said, his first attempt in 1957 did not go too well and even though he eventually won, he was bedridden for six months from injuries sustained from the fight.

 

https://www.historyoffighting.com/mas-oyama.php

 

 

Closest reference I could find.

 

It was either Mas Oyama who was rumored to have killed wild boars with his bare hands.

 

Or it was another old school karate master.

 

I don't remember.

[Nungali]

Just now, Sanity Check said:

 

 

...

 

 

 

Closest reference I could find.

 

It was either Mas Oyama who was rumored to have killed wild boars with his bare hands.

 

Or it was another old school karate master.

 

I don't remember.

 

Ahhhh ... If you had said 'killed a bull '   .....

 

That poor old bull .... you do realize what Mas did to it beforehand ?

 

I find this much more impressing !

 

 

 

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

To a point ... as MMA has some restrictive rules .

 

The amounts of times I been in a clash and the other crouches or through another similar dynamic, they expose the back part of the head and neck to you  ......   but you are not allowed hit that 'under rules', also the no 'groin attack ' .....  oh dear ,  that leaves people with the bad habit of coming in with an open groin , like some do their roundhouse kick .   They would be down in a moment in a street fight .

 

A mate wanted a technique against a belligerent boxer at his work. The guy was always wanting to show people stuff, and worse when he was drunk . he became a bit 'fearsome and annoying' . After he 'come on, lets have a go'  a few times at my mate and my mate politely refused , but he came on anyway , a light eye flick with the finger stopped him . he was totally freaked out , now bully boxer is " Dont fight that guy , he is crazy !  he nearly took my eye out ! "  .....  well, he said no three times !  The guy spent a LOT of time training ... in the ring, under rules, with gloves or mitts on .

 

However. MMA gives you real experience in being 'fighting fit ' and 'gettin smashed'  and getting straight back into it if you can . if you never been hit 'good'  before, it can come as  a real shock the first time   

 

I think it is important to analyze MMA in it's context, which is, its a sport, so of course rules are needed. The idea isn't to kill people. 

 

[ChiDragon]

Sorry, I am a late comer to this thread. I was trained on Taiji for more than forty years for health. Thus my health have improved tremendously.
 

24 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I think it is important to analyze MMA in it's context, which is, its a sport, so of course rules are needed. The idea isn't to kill people. 

 

Sorry to say, again, MMA is the only sport that has no rules. It involves all kinds of violent moves in the ring.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Sorry, I am a late comer to this thread. I was trained on Taiji for more than forty years for health. Thus my health have improved tremendously.
 

Sorry to say, again, MMA is the only sport that has no rules. It involves all kinds of violent moves in the ring.

 

There are defiantly rules in MMA. 

[Cobie]

.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

You mean ‘definitely’?

 

 

 

ugh!!! words are hard :-(

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

There are defiantly rules in MMA. 

What rules?

 

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

 

One thing that has come out of the MMA movement is what in my opinion is a rediscovery of what the traditional martial arts originally were by my best guess. I like how MMA pressure tests stuff and sifts through a bunch of delusion and finds what really works in real life in the real world. I like applying this concept with anything really. 

 

 

Traditional martial arts were all about human brutality afaik.

 

Traditional martial artists worked for emperors and kings. Competed in duels. Trained soldiers. Engaged in espionage. Conducted battles.

 

MMA is not rediscovering what is old.

 

They're creating something completely new & better in a lot of ways.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Sanity Check

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

What rules?

 

 

https://thebodylockmma.com/mma/mma-guide/unified-rules-of-mma/

 

 

[Sanity Check]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

https://thebodylockmma.com/mma/mma-guide/unified-rules-of-mma/

 

 

 

 

Interestingly.

 

Back when Steven Seagal tried to coach fighters in the UFC.

 

I think he tried to get one of them to use small joint manipulation finger submission holds.

 

Not sure if its legal, or how difficult it is to secure a submission that way percentage wise.

 

But it was some of the more esoteric coaching advice I remember being publicized.

[Maddie]

Just now, Sanity Check said:

 

 

Interestingly.

 

Back when Steven Seagal tried to coach fighters in the UFC.

 

I think he tried to get one of them to use small joint manipulation finger submission holds.

 

Not sure if its legal, or how difficult it is to secure a submission that way percentage wise.

 

But it was some of the more esoteric coaching advice I remember being publicized.

 

Small joints ie. fingers and toes are illegal 

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

https://thebodylockmma.com/mma/mma-guide/unified-rules-of-mma/

The Unified Rules of Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) have played a crucial role in the evolution and regulation of the sport since its inception.

Established in 2000 by the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board and later adopted by various athletic commissions, the Unified Rules were designed to provide a standardized set of guidelines to ensure fighter safety and fair competition. This comprehensive document encompasses weight classes, judging criteria, fouls, equipment requirements, and more, creating a clear framework for MMA events worldwide.

 

The rules were made in 2000. Look at the MOST brutal knockouts viewed on Oct 17, 2022(in the video). Who follows the rules in the fighting ring?
 

Edited December 11, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Sanity Check]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Small joints ie. fingers and toes are illegal 

 

 

LOL

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

What if your opponent points their fingers at your face to make you think about eye pokes.

 

Can you punch or kick their finger to try and break it.

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Sanity Check

[Maddie]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

The rules were made in 2000. Look at the MOST brutal knockouts viewed on Oct 17, 2022. Who follows the rules in the fighting ring?
 

 

Everyone that does not want to get disqualified I suppose. 

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Everyone that does not want to get disqualified I suppose. 

So far, I have not seen anyone has been disqualified yet. The fight continues no matter what!

Edited December 11, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

So far, I have not seen anyone has been disqualified yet. The fight continues no matter what!

 

I would assume that is because since these guys spend years of their lives training for this stuff they really don't want to get disqualified.