What do you train

[ChiDragon]

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Edited December 11, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I would assume that is because since these guys spend years of their lives training for this stuff they really don't want to get disqualified. 

Please keep in mind: Fighters who follow the rules get slaughtered.

[Maddie]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

Please keep in mind: Fighters who follow the rules get slaughtered.

 

I'm asking this sincerely but have you actually watched the UFC? 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I'm asking this sincerely but have you actually watched the UFC? 

Honestly, it is too brutal for me to watch. I took one glance at it, then quit.

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Honestly, it is too brutal for me to watch. I took one glance at it, then quit.

 

I agree it is brutal and I don't like to watch it either for that reason, BUT there are referees and they do insure that the fighters follow the rules. The main point I was trying to make however isn't that I enjoy watching UFC, but that MMA has done a lot to show what in martial arts is functional and what was not. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Maddie

[ChiDragon]

I was told that in France, once upon time, people fought with lots of kicking and it was very brutal. The government stopped all kicking in the fights. However, since Bruce Lee introduce Chinese Kung Fu to the world, the whole scenery in the martial arts industry has been changed to a very brutal fighting ground. I didn't realize that the MMA scene was that brutal until I had a glance of it.

FYI The Chinese have a habit of signing a death certificate before going into the fighting ring. It is like a warranty not to have any liable responsibility or obligation for the death of the opponent. That is, also,  indicates how brutal the martial arts was in ancient China.

Edited December 12, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I was told that in France, once upon time, people fought with lots of kicking and it was very brutal. The government stopped all kicking in the fights. However, since Bruce Lee introduce Chinese Kung Fu to the world, the whole scenery in the martial arts industry has been changed to a very brutal fighting ground. I didn't realize that the MMA scene was that brutal until I had a glance of it.

FYI The Chinese have a habit of signing a death certificate before going into the fighting ring. It is like a warranty not to have any liable responsibility or obligation for the death of the opponent. That is, also,  indicates how brutal the martial arts was in ancient China.

 

Like I said I don't really like to watch that stuff very often because it is quite brutal, but it is important to remember that the fighters are there because they want to be. 

[Sanity Check]

 

 

The NFL is worse than MMA for concussions and brain injuries 

 

NFL loses insurance giant that covered brain injuries, report says

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-insurance-coverage-brain-injury-concussions-cte/1s0x6dz4vo6cozts1xgwit45y

 

 

When do people stop watching the NFL for it being too brutal I wonder.

[Mig]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I think one of the biggest things that got lost from Karate as well as Kung Fu were the grappling techniques which were originally part of both. I strongly believe this is why when the early UFC's and Gracie challenges happened TMA that were striking based like Karate and Kung Fu were dominated by BJJ (Brazilian Jujitsu). 

Kung fu is a generic term and many movements, holds, sweeps have similarities both in the north and south boxing styles. What is similar to Jujitsu is 摔跤: Shuāijiāo that has roots from ancient times, similar type of wrestling you find it in India and some African countries. So it was the same in Rome, back in the days of Nero, you remember him, right? As most everything in this country, it is all about marketing, trends and sensationalism so one can see the evolution of martial arts from regular boxing to Judo, Karate (kumite), Kung fu (Katas: forms mainly), full contact, kick boxing then MMA. Gracie's idea took off and remember that congress had banned UFC because it was too violent. Really, everyone in this country live in a violent society and glorify thugs and criminals so the so called fights evolved with too many restrictions. Now, remember that Gracie's didn't make it in the beginning because the prevalence of wrestling and boxing as being the sport of poor people so they were never supported by their government.

 

[Mig]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I was told that in France, once upon time, people fought with lots of kicking and it was very brutal. The government stopped all kicking in the fights. However, since Bruce Lee introduce Chinese Kung Fu to the world, the whole scenery in the martial arts industry has been changed to a very brutal fighting ground. I didn't realize that the MMA scene was that brutal until I had a glance of it.

FYI The Chinese have a habit of signing a death certificate before going into the fighting ring. It is like a warranty not to have any liable responsibility or obligation for the death of the opponent. That is, also,  indicates how brutal the martial arts was in ancient China.

Where did you get that from France. France had savate which was kicks and strikes sport. Any street fight can be brutal and as a kid in those countries, you want to see blood in a fight and that's how you show you are a man. Bruce Lee didn't introduce Kung fu, he was against Kung fu and that's why created his own martial arts, a mix of wing chun, boxing and some grappling since then it had evolved as trends has changed. As he said: "Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own". Inosanto had to follow the trends and if you are going to his school, you will find sambo, kali escrima, silat, wing chun and JDK. As for the Chinese fight, knight errant Youxia (Chinese: 遊俠) novels then wuxia 武俠 had influenced what people considered fight or real fight although it became more fiction than real. Today MMA is not what you could find in alleys where guys fought bare hands or knuckle fists and each generation had their own rules. Today MMA is full of restrictions to make it interesting and entertaining.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Mig

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

There are defiantly rules in MMA. 

 

I agree but it IS a sport , after all .

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

ugh!!! words are hard :-(

 

Ohhhh   !  Okay then  ....

 

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I think it is important to analyze MMA in it's context, which is, its a sport, so of course rules are needed. The idea isn't to kill people. 

 

 

Agreed and that is what I meant in my post , the response was to  'real old style martial arts' which in many cases is about killing, injuring or  least 'stopping' people .  Things where very different when people could walk around with a 'live' sword and peasants had to bow to them ... or else !      .  

 

So I meant MMA is probably the best realistic popular  MA at the moment , as its hard contact in the ring . But its different to old style in

that 'death' may not necessarily be 'close at hand ' . 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Small joints ie. fingers and toes are illegal 

 

   You mean the 'Nungali big toe twist '  isnt allowed ?  

 

And the 'Three Stooges eye poke '  is out as well .

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

LOL

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

What if your opponent points their fingers at your face to make you think about eye pokes.

 

Can you punch or kick their finger to try and break it.

 

 

 I got to  4th place in an inter-style tournament when I was a lad doing that . Super tall guy had dominated the comp due to his reach -massive . He could hold an arm out and touch your face with a fist and your side kick could not get him .  He used that ... and not much else .   I had to front him in the semi , he stuck his guard up and out, one fist nearly reaching me .  So I kicked it . He immediately went 'owie' , stood up by stepping his back leg in and held his arm up in the air holding the fist with his other hand . I heard no whistle so I rushed in with a front punch , and him steeping forward   ;  >   ------  <    <tweeet ! >   One point , I win . he was furious but it was a technical win and I think the refs where pissed at him for doing not much else but relying on his reach to win .   He got beaten again later ,  so I didnt have to front him again.

 

It was not against those rules ... apparently .

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

I agree it is brutal and I don't like to watch it either for that reason, BUT there are referees and they do insure that the fighters follow the rules. The main point I was trying to make however isn't that I enjoy watching UFC, but that MMA has done a lot to show what in martial arts is functional and what was not. 

 

But dont forget martial arts is 'formal' in its aspect of training  in forms  / kata  / etc .  That is they are static and unrealistic and are not meant to be applied that way  ( this is a problem in many martial arts ie. the do try to apply them that way ) ; in a more realistic fight they would be applied dynamically , not static , moving or whatever , highly adaptable and applied opportunistically .

 

We can see this in some MMA techniques that are also performed 'statically'   in kata  ( kata can be seen as a 'memory list' of techniques and not a method of applying the techniques  ) . Many have no idea about this but a godd MMA fighter soon learns what works, what doesnt and what adaptations are needed ... in the moment .  This  is a good example of the comparisons   ;

 

(see 6:05 onwards for 'self defence' techniques ... THIS is 'old school 'karate'  or , if you like 'real no rules' .  Its what I was taught .  )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Nungali

[Mig]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Ohhhh   !  Okay then  ....

 

 

Agreed and that is what I meant in my post , the response was to  'real old style martial arts' which in many cases is about killing, injuring or  least 'stopping' people .  Things where very different when people could walk around with a 'live' sword and peasants had to bow to them ... or else !      .  

 

So I meant MMA is probably the best realistic popular  MA at the moment , as its hard contact in the ring . But its different to old style in

that 'death' may not necessarily be 'close at hand ' . 

 

 

Street fight is what is the closest to a fight could be. However if you watch people fighting even those who are practitioners, fight like kids, punches, kicks and clinch. All the techniques they learned all of the sudden disappear. Today there are tons of videos that show how boys and girls still fight the same way. Very few show what they have learned like a good front kick in the face, a roundhouse kick or a good jab. There are some videos like backyard brawler that show the efficiency of kicks and punches but I rarely see a technique or a fancy technique that can knock out someone.  There is a distinction of martial art (like those monks who rescued Lǐ shì mín

李世民. Lǐ shì mín rose to power and became the first Tang Dynasty Emperor.) and the sport that is practiced today. As for the martial art killing or injuring, it seems that there was a code of conduct 武德 wǔdé/butoku, lit. martial virtues, so when there was war, bare hands or ground fighting were the least weapons you had, you needed weapons or whatever useful tool to kill.

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

Street fight is what is the closest to a fight could be. However if you watch people fighting even those who are practitioners, fight like kids, punches, kicks and clinch. All the techniques they learned all of the sudden disappear.

 

This is true for people who never "pressure tested" their martial arts. Dojo's that don't have realistic sparing produce practitioners that go into the same kind of shock the average person goes into when someone is finally trying to hurt you for real.

 

The exception to this is when someone who trains in realistic pressure tested fighting techniques like MMA gets into a street fight, and the reaction is very different. 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Mig said:

Street fight is what is the closest to a fight could be. However if you watch people fighting even those who are practitioners, fight like kids, punches, kicks and clinch. All the techniques they learned all of the sudden disappear.

 

If I watch people fighting ?       Not only do i do that, I study it . And I do it ...modified .  Thats the reason I had two wooden machetes  made . Its one of the most popular weapons used here and also in home invasions . Ummmmm ... this shit actually happens . Also watched a lot of 'knife stuff'  real, that is . I have made posts on it .  What to do etc .  I am not postulating here .

 

Its not just watching , it is examining , and not fake stuff , real stuff from news or security footage ; 'Why did that happen, what went wrong , what should x have done , why did y do that , etc .  And then train and adapt that .

 

Regrading kids , for sure ... an early response is 'the tiger claw'    .. a type of clawing , then there is the grab and pull . You rarely see a fist until later .  I remember once we had a boy staying here .... I could immediately tell he was 'trouble'  ( that is he was essentially a good kid , he had a bad upbringing due to family domestic abuse  and had a violent father and he was holding the same inside  but  he responded well and positively to good older male input -  the usual package ... I've encountered that a bit and know the 'syndrome '  ).  But he was a time bomb .  My neighbors little girl a real sweetie ... but still , I know her well . Anyway, 'horrible' visiting boy  eventually donged sweet neighbor girl . She is a toughie , she gave him a dirty look and sucked it up .  I pulled the boy aside , " Dont do that . "  Yeah, he heard that plenty of times before , he still had the smarmy 'victors' look in his eyes -  " No mate .... I mean , dont do that .... or you will be sorry . These kids where about 6 .

 

half an hour later she is eating a banana , he has forgotten what he did, but she hasnt . Boy looks longingly at the banana  and she  offers some to him by poking it towards him , he leans forward and just as he bites it .... WHAM !  front kick to the stomach ... perfect technique , no one ever showed her that .   or maybe they did in the 'playground' ?   By bawled like a baby .  " I told you not to do that .... to her . "

 

 

Today there are tons of videos that show how boys and girls still fight the same way. Very few show what they have learned like a good front kick in the face, a roundhouse kick or a good jab. There are some videos like backyard brawler that show the efficiency of kicks and punches but I rarely see a technique or a fancy technique that can knock out someone. 

 

trying to do any fancy technique is 'asking for it ' . My fight strategy is just to try and defend and stay out of it ... eventually , they will 'hand it to you ' (on a plate ) / make a mistake / present an opportunity , that is when perhaps 1 out of many techniques you learnt might be applicable . I wait until they fit  into a technique ... if you know what I mean .

 

Recently , in a friendly , kid was trying a front kick to the face . I stopped it a variety of ways ... it was actually a dangerous move for him  as he was not very good at it , but he kept trying to do it . I said " I would not do it like that "  he asked how I would , "i'll show you later . "  Then after a while when we where in a chaotic scuffle / wrestle part of our 'fight' , he went off balance , I helped him as well ,  during the confusion I went for an arm hoping for a take down , he got out out of it but then was bending down, head low, close in .  Everything was right , I had regained balance and some type of stance , he was off balance and recovering and worried about my hands , his head was down there so ... sort off all  by itself  ... 'on a plate'  ; front kick to the head .

 

Me '  " THAT'S  when I would do it . "

 

 

 

There is a distinction of martial art (like those monks who rescued Lǐ shì mín

李世民. Lǐ shì mín rose to power and became the first Tang Dynasty Emperor.) and the sport that is practiced today. As for the martial art killing or injuring, it seems that there was a code of conduct 武德 wǔdé/butoku, lit.

 

yeah, stories are good . So is practical real experience and training ... and knowing how to join the two together . 

 

And I agree that a street fight might be the more real type .... but defending your home and family against an invasion ... that might be more of a real desperate kill or be killed situation .... it happens .

 

 

martial virtues, so when there was war, bare hands or ground fighting were the least weapons you had, you needed weapons or whatever useful tool to kill.

 

of course . Same for self defense . And that is the essence of kobudo in which I train ..... eg. kama or gama (Okinawan)  are  one of the least effective weapons  IMO    .... UNLESS you happen to be walking home from cutting rice with them , and you get attacked and its the only thing 'at hand' .   The hiwa (garden hoe ) is actually a good weapon .... if you happen to be using one at the time .... maybe its a broom , or even a chair , which can be very effective against a knife .