Evolution of Christianity

[Maddie]

I thought since I was a history major and since we have this new shiny Abrahamic forum I would bring up the fascinating and totally not controversial topic about the evolution of Christianity. My basic understanding is this 

 

1. Early Christianit(ies) in the first few centuries of the CE.

 

2. The transition to Orthodoxy as one branch of Christianity became the official religion of the Empire. 

 

3. Then there was the great schism of 1054 when the Church split into East and West, because.... reasons.

 

4. The Protestant reformation which began in 1517 with Martin Luther.

 

There should be a lot to unpack there and discuss. 

[SirPalomides]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

3. Then there was the great schism of 1054 when the Church split into East and West, because.... reasons

 

We can talk about any of these but I'll give you my hot take on this one: 1054 didn't really have much effect "on the ground"- there remained local churches in communion with both Rome and Constantinople. Some people say the schism was really solidified by the Crusades, especially the Fourth Crusade. However, the East Roman Church of Antioch remained basically in communion with both Rome and Constantinople until the so-called Melkite schism of 1724 when it finally split into the Melkite Catholic Church and the Roman Orthodox Church of Antioch (usually called "Greek Orthodox" in English but in Arabic, the majority language in that Church, it's called "Rum"). So I would argue that the Great Schism wasn't really definitive until 1724. 

[SirPalomides]

24 minutes ago, Maddie said:

I thought since I was a history major and since we have this new shiny Abrahamic forum I would bring up the fascinating and totally not controversial topic about the evolution of Christianity. My basic understanding is this 

 

1. Early Christianit(ies) in the first few centuries of the CE.

 

2. The transition to Orthodoxy as one branch of Christianity became the official religion of the Empire. 

 

3. Then there was the great schism of 1054 when the Church split into East and West, because.... reasons.

 

4. The Protestant reformation which began in 1517 with Martin Luther.

 

There should be a lot to unpack there and discuss. 

2 important schisms in the post-Nicene church that are often neglected here: 

 

1. The Church of the East, so-called Nestorian, which was centered in the Persian empire, and which did not accept the 431 Council of Ephesus. This is the church that brought the first Christian missions to China and, for a while, had some sympathy among Mongol and Turkic elites. Nowadays it maintains a small and embattled presence in Iraq and a diaspora in the west. 

 

2. The split over the Council of Chalcedon (451), which really only solidified about 100 years later, leading to the modern Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, and Syriac churches. These churches are called Orthodox but are not in communion with the "Eastern" or "Greek" orthodox churches that were the state churches of the East Roman Empire and allied/ successor states. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by SirPalomides

[SirPalomides]

And lastly there is now a split within the Eastern Orthodox communion, between the churches of Constantinople and Moscow, over the status of the Orthodox in Ukraine. Time will tell how this one will develop. 

[Sanity Check]

The latest evolution could involve christians exploring the occult:

 

Jared Cannonier credits earth stone energy work for win at UFC Copenhagen

 

https://www.mmamania.com/2019/9/29/20890212/jared-cannonier-credits-earth-stone-energy-work-for-win-at-ufc-copenhagen

 

For those who follow UFC.

 

Jiri Prochazka is another christian who recently did something resembling taoist training of living in complete darkness for days.

 

Jiri Prochazka went 3 days without food in dark room to confront ‘demons,’ train his mind

 

https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/10/18/23409671/jiri-prochazka-went-3-days-without-water-in-dark-room-to-confront-demons-train-mind-for-ufc-282

 

It could be fair to say athletes are seeing benefits from acupuncture and cupping:

 

 

Which is encouraging them to branch outwards and explore.

 

I think normal christians may also be doing something similar. 

 

If only as they see alphas in society doing it 1st.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Sanity Check

[SirPalomides]

1 minute ago, Sanity Check said:

The latest evolution could involve christians exploring the occult

 

Not even close to a new development. It strikes me that a lot of today's "pagan" occultists don't realize how much of the material they use was transmitted by Christians. 

[Maddie]

58 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

The latest evolution could involve christians exploring the occult:

 

Jared Cannonier credits earth stone energy work for win at UFC Copenhagen

 

https://www.mmamania.com/2019/9/29/20890212/jared-cannonier-credits-earth-stone-energy-work-for-win-at-ufc-copenhagen

 

For those who follow UFC.

 

Jiri Prochazka is another christian who recently did something resembling taoist training of living in complete darkness for days.

 

Jiri Prochazka went 3 days without food in dark room to confront ‘demons,’ train his mind

 

https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/10/18/23409671/jiri-prochazka-went-3-days-without-water-in-dark-room-to-confront-demons-train-mind-for-ufc-282

 

It could be fair to say athletes are seeing benefits from acupuncture and cupping:

 

 

Which is encouraging them to branch outwards and explore.

 

I think normal christians may also be doing something similar. 

 

If only as they see alphas in society doing it 1st.

 

Not the kind of stuff you're going to hear about in your typical church service lol. I wonder if he won his fight? lol

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Sanity Check said:

Jiri Prochazka went 3 days without food in dark room to confront ‘demons,’ train his mind

 

https://www.mmafighting.com/2022/10/18/23409671/jiri-prochazka-went-3-days-without-water-in-dark-room-to-confront-demons-train-mind-for-ufc-282

 

It could be fair to say athletes are seeing benefits from acupuncture and cupping:

 

 

Which is encouraging them to branch outwards and explore.

 

I think normal christians may also be doing something similar. 

 

If only as they see alphas in society doing it 1st.

 

Dark retreat is a Tibetan Buddhist practice, but more intense and less "alpha male".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_retreat

 

There are generally visits from Buddhas of both friendly and "wrathful" persuasions, but it would be a misunderstanding to think that either are "evil" or demons... all manifestations compassionate.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Dark retreat is a Tibetan Buddhist practice, but more intense and less "alpha male".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_retreat

 

There are generally visits from Buddhas of both friendly and "wrathful" persuasions, but it would be a misunderstanding to think that either are "evil" or demons... all manifestations compassionate.

 

When I was in acupuncture school I had a classmate, one of those light and love types. She judged me for doing Jujitsu and said it would just attract violence I said I thought there was a "Tao of sorts within it" which she rejected. Then I asked her what she did for self defense and she said that she "just didn't manifest problems like that". About a year later the poor girl got sexually assaulted by her date. Some Jujitsu could have really come in handy. I felt bad for her. 

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

When I was in acupuncture school I had a classmate, one of those light and love types. She judged me for doing Jujitsu and said it would just attract violence I said I thought there was a "Tao of sorts within it" which she rejected. Then I asked her what she did for self defense and she said that she "just didn't manifest problems like that". About a year later the poor girl got sexually assaulted by her date. Some Jujitsu could have really come in handy. I felt bad for her. 

 

It is probably too much to go into here, but the part that isn't "love and light" is OURS, just as karma is ours. 

 

In the popular story of the Buddha, Mara isn't evil if you look at it properly. Mara shows the Buddha where his attachments lie, and he realizes that he is no longer a "self" that has attachment or aversion to them. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I'll certainly contribute here as time allows.  My first contribution will be to the notion of who and what Jesus was,  First of all in regard to this:

 

1 hour ago, Sanity Check said:

The latest evolution could involve christians exploring the occult

 

What if Jesus was a Magician to begin with?  As I posted here, there are strong reasons to take the idea seriously:

 

On 10/3/2019 at 11:12 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Aside from that, given your Christian background and your efforts to free yourself from early conditioning related to it, you might find this Blog:

 

Was Jesus a Magician?

 

Both informative and inspiring.  It is the Blog of Dr. Helen Ingram and is based on and an exposition of her PhD thesis, Dragging Down Heaven: Jesus as Magician and Manipulator of Spirits in the Gospels. I read the book that inspired it, Morton Smith's Jesus the Magician in the late Seventies and found it informative and very suggestive, but not completely convincing, it became one among many possible accounts of a possible historical Jesus, but Dr. Ingram's thesis is a much more convincing discussion and based on it I would say that the notion that Jesus, if there was a historical Jesus, was very likely a "magician" is far more likely than any of the other alternatives that I have read.

 

I hope this is an interesting and helpful addition to this discussion.

 

ZYD

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

What if Jesus was a Magician to begin with?  As I posted here, there are strong reasons to take the idea seriously:

 

That's certainly what the Jew's of his day and after considered him.

[SirPalomides]

On the topic of Christian magic, these two episodes of the always-fascinating SHWEP are well worth a listen:

 

Prolegomena to Christian Magic

Interview with Korshi Dosoo on Early Christian Magic

 

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That's certainly what the Jew's of his day and after considered him.

 

Not only them. For instance, the Platonist Celsus, in his anti-Christian polemic (as it is preserved in Origen's rebuttal) accuses Jesus of being a sorcerer relying on a combination of stage tricks and evil spirits. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by SirPalomides

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

relying on a combination of stage tricks and evil spirits. 

 

Stage tricks still fool people in the twenty-first century, so imagine what effect they had on people in the first!  

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

Stage tricks

I was quite amazed when I had heard about Simon Magus in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 8:9-24).

And I do suppose, there were many more stories, that aren’t told anymore today. Most of the gems either seem lost or vanished or censored. 
Someone here was at times discussing the gospel of Thomas, but I forgot who did. It was quite an enjoyable conversation.

Edited December 5, 2023 by S:C

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, S:C said:

I was quite amazed when I had heard about Simon Magus in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 8:9-24).

And I do suppose, there were many more stories, that aren’t told anymore today. Most of the gems either seem lost or vanished or censored. 
Someone here was at times discussing the gospel of Thomas, but I forgot who did. It was quite an enjoyable conversation.

 

Ah where we get the word "Simony" - trying to buy positions or power within the church. 

[Giles]

18 hours ago, Maddie said:

I thought since I was a history major and since we have this new shiny Abrahamic forum I would bring up the fascinating and totally not controversial topic about the evolution of Christianity. My basic understanding is this 

 

1. Early Christianit(ies) in the first few centuries of the CE.

 

2. The transition to Orthodoxy as one branch of Christianity became the official religion of the Empire. 

 

3. Then there was the great schism of 1054 when the Church split into East and West, because.... reasons.

 

4. The Protestant reformation which began in 1517 with Martin Luther.

 

There should be a lot to unpack there and discuss. 

 

 

There was also the attempted eradication, by assimilation, of Paganism & the invention of Satan & Hell.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Giles
add link

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, Giles said:

 

There was also the attempted eradication, by assimilation, of Paganism & the invention of Satan & Hell.

 

 

You must argue your point good sir lol 🧐

[Giles]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

You must argue your point good sir lol 🧐

 

 

 

See also my ppd and:

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Giles
insert link & cartoon

[Maddie]

53 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

 

See also my ppd and:

 

 

 

I didn't mean "internet argue" I was using it in an academic sense lol. 

[SirPalomides]

On 12/6/2023 at 3:55 AM, Giles said:

 

There was also the attempted eradication, by assimilation, of Paganism & the invention of Satan & Hell.

 

 

Each of these points would probably need its own thread but I'll briefly sum up my thoughts here:

 

1. Paganism, as noted elsewhere, is a term of very limited usefulness; it comes with the assumption that there was a pure, non-influenced Christianity that emerged which only later assimilated pagan elements. Leaving aside the traces of "pagan" thought in the New Testament itself, the church fathers who elaborated Christian theology using Stoic, Platonist, and Aristotelian concepts did so as people raised and steeped in this intellectual culture, not as outsiders. If we consider how virtually everyone nowadays thinks in terms set by Newton, Copernicus, or Darwin- even if in distorted ways, even if they never read any of these guys- that might give some idea of how pervasive these philosophical currents were among the learned of the Roman period, even with men like Tertullian or Augustine who tried to establish a rigid demarcation between Christian and pagan thought (and these guys were in the minority among church fathers). 

 

2. Paul's treatment of Satan, Prince (Archon) of the Power of the air) and the other heavenly "archons" (yes, he uses that word) is something that seems to be often ignored or glossed over, which is worth discussing. As with Christianity itself, the origins of the phenomenon later called "gnosticism" are very murky and controversial but suffice to say that in this era a lot of people were elaborating a vision of the cosmos as a prison ruled by oppressive celestial / astral entities who needed to be bypassed somehow to achieve salvation in the divine sphere above. Paul doesn't engage in the complex gnostic mythologizing, he doesn't elaborate a full system of 7 planetary spheres, each with its own archon, but he seems to be on a similar wavelength. Another curious idea that Paul expresses in Galatians is that the Law was delivered not directly by God but through the mediation of angels. This seems to crop up in some other Jewish writings of the period (e.g. Josephus) but no one seems to know where it came from.  Paul leans on this understanding to suggest that the Law is imperfect, mediated- it is Christ who breaks through the celestial mediations and enables direct access to the divine realm. 

 

3. Hell and universalism is another fascinating topic and it never really seems to be definitively resolved even among the "orthodox" party. It seems for a while the notion of universal salvation was accepted by the "orthodox" majority, with hell regarded as something more like purgatory. This is most clearly expressed by Gregory of Nyssa, one of the Cappadocian Fathers who were hugely influential in shaping what came to be considered "orthodox" Trinitarian Christianity. Traces of it can still be found in church hymns still sung in Eastern Orthodox churches today. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have a copy of the book reviewed below and believe it may be a useful read for anyone interested in the background of the Chrisitan appropriation of Plato and other aspects of Greek philosophy.

 

I could only find the beginning of the review, but I think it gives enough of an idea of the books scope and potential usefulness.  I hope this information is interesting and useful.

 

ZYD

[SirPalomides]

The Secret History of Western Esotericism Podcast also gives a good account (stretching over many episodes and many thinkers, with much more to come, it’s still in the 4th century now) about the development of divine transcendence and ineffability through the middle and late Platonists. The uncompromising monotheism associated with the Abrahamic faiths built on this foundation. It is one thing to say “there is one God” and another to say this God is a. the ground of all that exists and b. so utterly transcendent from his creation that even words like “God” and “being” are ultimately inappropriate 

[Nungali]

On 06/12/2023 at 8:02 AM, Maddie said:

 

Stage tricks still fool people in the twenty-first century, so imagine what effect they had on people in the first!  

 

Like Sai Baba did   ?  

[snowymountains]

There's probably more to unpack between these events e.g.

 

a. Influence of Neoplatonists onto church doctrine and texts, ie the celestial hierarchy.

 

b. Textual references composing the canon(s), most of the different point of views that did not survive is because of the practitioners not surviving ( likely most of their scrolls didn't survive either ).

 

c. The controversial topic of whether or not early Christianity accepted reincarnation.