Your Experience of Standing Meditation

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

My own opinion is the foundation for any practice is stillness and that building qi in your dantian too early can lead to big qi deviations  and psychological issues due to traumas in your system (which nearly everyone has). So stillness and trauma-clearing before any qi building exercises.

 

I first came across this via books and there were none of these warnings. So I eagerly did a lot of LDT breathing and MCO as basically one of my first things I ever did, and it sure did dig up past traumas!! 

[Sahaja]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:52 AM, snowymountains said:

 

1. How does the calm abiding part differ to other Samatha traditions ? Re emptiness: empty of what, empty of self ? similarly to how Mahayana interprets emptiness ( and Theravada actually ) ? How is emptiness realised in Alchemy?

 

2. Is this done as a 4-stage meditation in one go, as a set of meditative practices to be done is a week, how does this differ to practicing boxed breathing, the 4 imeasurables, samatha and insight ( or even open awareness ) ?

 

3. Here I have to say the terminology is beyond my minimal knowledge of Daoist concepts. Nonetheless, I'll give it a go,

 

"build Dan tian, build chi" -- the closest thing I've seen to this is Zazen meditation on breath, where the awareness point is in the Hara/Dantien, is this the practice you refer to ?

 

"open channels" - is this done with somatic exercises?

 

"circulate qi" - is this done with somatic exercises?

 

"develop stability of awareness" this to me seems not in sequence to the above, e.g. Theravada monks who enter Jhana states do not work with the Dantien and have no concept of energy that they work with. Does it need to be at the end of the sequence?

 

Regarding the transformations you mentioned (Jing to chi, chi to shen, shen to emptiness) is there a textual reference which contains the full technique, or at least a text which translates the textual reference and provides an interpretation that's sufficient for the full technique ?

 

Also, in what context transforming (anything) to emptiness, if emptiness is to be interpreted as emptiness of self, it's only something that can be realised and there's a whole set of meditative techniques that assist to experience that - Is the Daoist view different on this?

Wow. I don’t know if I am qualified at my level to answer these questions, let alone have them make sense relative to one of the  Buddhist models.  at its most basic its an embodied approach focused on developing the body and the mind using the body’s underlying energetic matrix to prepare for a variety of undertakings including spiritual development, TCM practice, internal martial arts or just basic physical and mental health. This embodied approach is similar to that used in some yoga lineages and esoteric Buddhist approaches, including sharing some common tools and approaches at the beginners level. It’s predicated on the view that to work at the spiritual level (go beyond the limited self or acquired mind) one needs to have a very efficient, very healthy mind and body to support and successfully navigate the practices at these advanced  levels. Time and effort is invested at the front end to avoid both mental and physical health problems as well as glass ceilings on development arising down the road. 

 

To make sense of the process and nomenclature one needs first to have some familiarity with Daoist cosmology, philosophy and their views of the mind/body. A  book I’d recommend for this  is A comprehensive Guide to Daoist Neigong by Damo Mitchell. Once you are familiar with this material more advanced texts on Internal Alchemy/Neidan, including Jing to qi, qi to shen etc. model,  will make more sense.  In this guide  the basics of neigong are covered (what, why and how) along with information on more advanced neidan processes (the what and the why). This text also addresses some of the specific concerns raised by Maddie and John Doe in this thread including details on specific qi deviation syndromes and how to treat them at the basic level (what points and what herbs). The what and why of stillness related practices , such as nei guan, Xin hai, and Zuo Wang are also covered. It also describes the Daoist levels of spiritual development and terminology that relate to the more commonly familiar terms of awakening, enlightenment and to the rainbow body. In addition it covers the alchemical processes of the 5 phases or elements that refer to reversing the light an aspect of which deals with the emotions along with the various macro/micro orbits and their respective levels of which there are a number, some of which are quite advanced. the Dan tians and their usage is also covered..the guide also includes info on Daoist precepts that are important to the practice. Also the important Daoist concepts of spontaneity and non governance are covered along with their central role in navigating practice including the difference between using attention as opposed to intention in working with the energetic matrix. This also frames how to approach practices like the orbits, letting them naturally arise rather than be mind driven.   I think there are free pdf copies of the guide on the internet if you are so inclined. 
 

There are a number of approaches that can be taken with neigong & internal alchemy and this is just one of them  Also as I say a lot of this is way beyond my level. However the pieces I am directly familiar with have been both surprising and enjoyable to practice.
 

Hope you find this helpful.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

See https://www.amazon.com/Internal-Alchemy-Everyone-Chungtao-Ho-ebook/dp/B07JC96GVR/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.vtVRZxGNrBR-HTwEOiqCWznK81b6PHP7_BRqdyYG-3Yw1pmLNvm1Lcm2MSoACpkDap82XjkOvQCXOdPSAeI5CxnPEMKUfdHaiYvLWtullhwOzOtDobK9M-BIQ9OgtQqR7Yn-OVpeTtjkUJoC2ix2Yw.wH2IiXW0TL8d9-xPryjeA2FntZBxOrqxAtc8JX-HS6U&dib_tag=se&keywords=inner+alchemy+for+everyone&sr=8-3

 

My own opinion is the foundation for any practice is stillness and that building qi in your dantian too early can lead to big qi deviations  and psychological issues due to traumas in your system (which nearly everyone has). So stillness and trauma-clearing before any qi building exercises.

 

Lots of qi can also inflate your ego like air inflates a ballon. So another thing to look out for.

 

Thank you for the book suggestion, looks very interesting.

 

I'd say that traumas coming to the surface can be an artifact of meditating, regardless of whether it is done using the hara of point of awareness.

Depends more on the type and durations of meditation done than belly breathing vs not belly breathing (if that's what is meant by building Qi).

When meditating we can connect more to our subconscious and even unconscious so traumas come to the surface, don't think this is energy related.

Stillness will just suppress and have a temporary effect, only therapy can do a deep work on traumas.

 

So I agree with the premise on the traumas but don't think it's linked to qi, it's linked to connecting to our unconscious and subconscious by meditating.

 

Re Qi deviations, I've only done very limited energy work so far, so I don't understand the term, do you refer to ie gathering more qi in the upper part of the body ?

[snowymountains]

20 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Wow. I don’t know if I am qualified at my level to answer these questions, let alone have them make sense relative to one of the  Buddhist models.  at its most basic its an embodied approach focused on developing the body and the mind using the body’s underlying energetic matrix to prepare for a variety of undertakings including spiritual development, TCM practice, internal martial arts or just basic physical and mental health. This embodied approach is similar to that used in some yoga lineages and esoteric Buddhist approaches, including sharing some common tools and approaches at the beginners level. It’s predicated on the view that to work at the spiritual level (go beyond the limited self or acquired mind) one needs to have a very efficient, very healthy mind and body to support and successfully navigate the practices at these advanced  levels. Time and effort is invested at the front end to avoid both mental and physical health problems as well as glass ceilings on development arising down the road. 

 

To make sense of the process and nomenclature one needs first to have some familiarity with Daoist cosmology, philosophy and their views of the mind/body. A  book I’d recommend for this  is A comprehensive Guide to Daoist Neigong by Damo Mitchell. Once you are familiar with this material more advanced texts on Internal Alchemy/Neidan, including Jing to qi, qi to shen etc. model,  will make more sense.  In this guide  the basics of neigong are covered (what, why and how) along with information on more advanced neidan processes (the what and the why). This text also addresses some of the specific concerns raised by Maddie and John Doe in this thread including details on specific qi deviation syndromes and how to treat them at the basic level (what points and what herbs). The what and why of stillness related practices , such as nei guan, Xin hai, and Zuo Wang are also covered. It also describes the Daoist levels of spiritual development and terminology that relate to the more commonly familiar terms of awakening, enlightenment and to the rainbow body. In addition it covers the alchemical processes of the 5 phases or elements that refer to reversing the light an aspect of which deals with the emotions along with the various macro/micro orbits and their respective levels of which there are a number, some of which are quite advanced. the Dan tians and their usage is also covered..the guide also includes info on Daoist precepts that are important to the practice. Also the important Daoist concepts of spontaneity and non governance are covered along with their central role in navigating practice including the difference between using attention as opposed to intention in working with the energetic matrix. This also frames how to approach practices like the orbits, letting them naturally arise rather than be mind driven.   I think there are free pdf copies of the guide on the internet if you are so inclined. 
 

There are a number of approaches that can be taken with neigong & internal alchemy and this is just one of them  Also as I say a lot of this is way beyond my level. However the pieces I am directly familiar with have been both surprising and enjoyable to practice.
 

Hope you find this helpful.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, with Metta 🙏

[CityHermit!]

All the methodologies I've learned I can and have applied in a standing position. I work a day job where I'm on my feet as much as 8-10 hours a shift. My Sifu taught a method that involves building a root and generating internal power by squeezing the ground with the balls of the feet and making circles on the ball of foot. I still have old pairs of shoes where I made holes at the part where the ball of my foot contacted it, holes made through rubbing on the ground so much and so often. I don't recall how many pairs I did this with but its at least a few. If I'm standing, then I'm always practicing my posture and structural alignment. if I am moving then I am always practicing my footwork. I crack my ankles often like people crack their knuckles. My feet are dangerous.

[CityHermit!]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:21 AM, Nuralshamal said:

Haha, yes, true, he was maybe even more horny than me, even though he was 70-80 years old. 

We sat on a bench waiting to be picked up after a teaching session. It was outside, in a park/playground area.

I talked and asked him about qigong and meditation, how to cultivate energy to achieve inner peace and connection with the universe. He was closely studying and then commenting on how juicy and sexy the ass of one of the hispanic moms in the park was :'D and what he would do to her.

So, all the lovemaking and sexual qigong does work for maintaining sexual function into old age

About a year later, when he blew his hip out and had to be in a wheelchair for about a month, he had to stick to  just the women riding him :'D 

But he came back strong after! Haha 

 

A real Mokkori fellow eh?

[CityHermit!]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:55 PM, EFreethought said:

Does anyone do meditation in horse stance?

 

Not really, sometimes I walk around that way though.

[Maddie]

12 hours ago, CityHermit! said:

Not really, sometimes I walk around that way though.

 

Like at the grocery store and stuff?

[CityHermit!]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

Like at the grocery store and stuff?

At home. But what a pointed question. TDB is the same as ever, as are some other things. I don't see much of a future for this place.

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

At home. But what a pointed question. TDB is the same as ever, as are some other things. I don't see much of a future for this place.

 

Really, my being a little silly really ruined your day that much? :-( ..... sorry

Edited January 15 by Maddie

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

Really, my being a little silly really ruined your day that much? :-( ..... sorry

You're not sorry.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, CityHermit! said:

You're not sorry.

 

Thanks for mansplaining my feelings to me. 

[CityHermit!]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

Thanks for mansplaining my feelings to me. 

Please find someone else to talk to.

[johndoe2012]

I did approx a year of standing an hour a day. 

 

I farted a lot 😊

[CityHermit!]

So I'm visiting my folks' place where I kept these, which is why I didn't post them before, but these are two separate pairs of shoes I used. These aren't the only ones this happened to, and some of my classmates had the same thing happen, but you can see the wear and/or holes on the part where the ball of foot meets the shoe. I, we, would grind our shoes so often and to such an extent that it literally wore down the shoes. So you could see I was being quite literal. That's our method at work.

[thelerner]

At night I'll stand still for a few minutes.  Helps clear my head and relax the body.  

 

A practice I haven't done in for awhile is ZZ while listening to Rawn Clark's Archaeous system.  He uses a vaguely hermetic system to stack the elements on your body.  Legs (and hands) are earth, stomach area water, chest air, head awareness/light.  The lessons are just 15 or so minutes and make standing go by quickly.  Because the hands are part of the earth I'll usually stand in a 'holding balls down' posture.   The Archaeous isn't specifically for standing but I've found it compliment ZZ very well.  

 

It's also my go to for sitting by pond/lake/stream meditation.  Solid Earth holds water, flexible changing water holds expanding enveloping air, above air is awareness.  

 

<added It's sorta like becoming the famous Daoist picture where symbols and cosmology make up the sitting man.  

Edited January 17 by thelerner

[CityHermit!]

6 minutes ago, thelerner said:

At night I'll stand still for a few minutes.  Helps clear my head and relax the body.  

 

A practice I haven't done in for awhile is ZZ while listening to Rawn Clark's Archaeous system.  He uses a vaguely hermetic system to stack the elements on your body.  Legs (and hands) are earth, stomach area water, chest air, head awareness/light.  The lessons are just 15 or so minutes and make standing go by quickly.  Because the hands are part of the earth I'll usually stand in a 'holding balls down' posture.   The Archaeous isn't specifically for standing but I've found it compliment ZZ very well.  

 

It's also my go to for sitting by pond/lake/stream meditation.  Solid Earth holds water, flexible changing water holds expanding enveloping air, above air is awareness.

That sounds pretty cool, that elemental classification makes sense. Before I got into Daoist practice I was for a short time a member of Robert Zink's EOGD branch, long story, and I would do Israel Regardies' Middle Pillar a bunch but what you work with sounds more to my liking than that.

Edited January 17 by CityHermit!

[thelerner]

I 

1 minute ago, CityHermit! said:

That sounds pretty cool, that elemental classification makes sense. ..

If you or anyone is interested here's a link- http://abardoncompanion.de/Arch-Info.html

Rawn had many fascinating practices.  His IHVI ADNI chant/canticle is my shower practice and quite powerful.  His Center of Stillness guided meditation is both complex, difficult and rewarding.  http://abardoncompanion.de/CSM-Info.html

 

Lastly his commentaries on Franz Bardon's magic and hermetics fill in many blanks and make the system much more understandable.  

[CityHermit!]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

I 

If you or anyone is interested here's a link- http://abardoncompanion.de/Arch-Info.html

Rawn had many fascinating practices.  His IHVI ADNI chant/canticle is my shower practice and quite powerful.  His Center of Stillness guided meditation is both complex, difficult and rewarding.  http://abardoncompanion.de/CSM-Info.html

 

Lastly his commentaries on Franz Bardon's magic and hermetics fill in many blanks and make the system much more understandable.  

Ah, Franz Bardon, yes, I have his works on my shelf as well. Hermetics are fascinating. Thanks for the link.

[Mark Foote]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:53 AM, Vajra Fist said:

 

Indeed, Harada Roshi introduced standing practice for Rinzai Zen monks at Sogen-ji.
 

Can you describe what the practice consisted of?--just curious.  Thanks, Vajra Fist!

[Mark Foote]

On 1/15/2024 at 5:05 AM, Maddie said:

 

Like at the grocery store and stuff?
 

Sometimes I dance with a wider step, like I'm jumping between rocks in a riverbed--does that count?

[Maddie]

Just now, Mark Foote said:

Sometimes I dance with a wider step, like I'm jumping between rocks in a riverbed--does that count?

 

Sure why not :-)

[Mark Foote]

I do the standing posture that is part of the abbreviated Tai Chi form I learned.  That form is the first part of the longer form that was taught by Cheng Man Ch'ing.  I learned the abbreviated version from a student of a student of Cheng's, who taught it free in a local park every Saturday some years ago.  

 

I especially do it when I get up in the middle of the night, and don't feel fully awake.  The arms angle out from the body about 15-20 degrees, the feet are squared to one another.  That's an even-weighted posture, but I find that I begin to experience the left arm-right leg, right arm-left leg alternation of the Tai Chi form as I stand.  Sometimes it feels natural to let the arms rise and return, as in the initial part of the form.  I often wind up into the form, and sometimes the alternation continues arm to hip one side and then the other, whether I am moving or not.

Not the practice you're describing, I realize, but sometimes I will stand five or ten minutes.  Very helpful to me at 3am, especially because it loosens my knees, for instances where I go on to sit.  
 

[Vajra Fist]

13 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Can you describe what the practice consisted of?--just curious.  Thanks, Vajra Fist!

 

Corey Hess, who spent quite a few years at Sogen-ji, now teaches zhan zhuang online. From what I gather, it's mostly holding the tree. 

 

https://zenembodiment.com/about/

[Keith108]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Corey Hess, who spent quite a few years at Sogen-ji, now teaches zhan zhuang online. From what I gather, it's mostly holding the tree. 

 

https://zenembodiment.com/about/

 

Corey has done a good job integrating embodiment into the practice. It tends to be an afterthought for most.