Your Experience of Standing Meditation

[Mark Foote]

11 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Corey Hess, who spent quite a few years at Sogen-ji, now teaches zhan zhuang online. From what I gather, it's mostly holding the tree. 

 

https://zenembodiment.com/about/
 

Ah, very interesting.  I have read a few of Corey's blog posts, in the past.

I notice he wrote:

 

The idea behind standing still in static positions, for instance with our arms holding an energetic ball around our chest or other positions, is that in order to be able to hold these positions for more than a few minutes, we have to completely relax.  So our body has to find harmony, and we need to use our bodies as a unit in order to be able to stand there.  Then we are holding our arms in place with our tanden (dantien) rather than the muscles in our arms and legs.

 

 

Posture by virtue of one-pointedness (not so much the tanden per se) is something I experience more readily in sitting, but I'm working on it when I walk around the block, these days.

He makes it sound like an everyday, relaxation kind-of-thing.  Which it is, and the emphasis on complete relaxation is a beautiful part of the Chinese martial arts, for sure--nevertheless, for me it's more about the free placement of attention by necessity experienced in the movement of breath: 
 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness].
 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki offered the analogy here in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor.  In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body.
 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

Edited February 13 by Mark Foote

[Vajra Fist]

21 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Ah, very interesting.  I have read a few of Corey's blog posts, in the past.

I notice he wrote:

 

The idea behind standing still in static positions, for instance with our arms holding an energetic ball around our chest or other positions, is that in order to be able to hold these positions for more than a few minutes, we have to completely relax.  So our body has to find harmony, and we need to use our bodies as a unit in order to be able to stand there.  Then we are holding our arms in place with our tanden (dantien) rather than the muscles in our arms and legs.

 

 

Posture by virtue of one-pointedness (not so much the tanden per se) is something I experience more readily in sitting, but I'm working on it when I walk around the block, these days.

He makes it sound like an everyday, relaxation kind-of-thing.  Which it is, and the emphasis on complete relaxation is a beautiful part of the Chinese martial arts, for sure--nevertheless, for me it's more about the free placement of attention by necessity experienced in the movement of breath: 
 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness].
 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki offered the analogy here in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor.  In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body.
 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

 

I'm still exploring it, but feel like there's a correlation between relaxation and depth of concentration. For instance, Hakuin's soft ointment seems geared toward that. And zhan zhuang, in Corey's interpretation seems to fulfil the same purpose.

 

In the Dharma Drum version of shikantaza (silent illumination), a lot of emphasis is on progressive relaxation before the meditation begins proper. 

 

Reggie Ray, who is heavily into somatic meditation, partly from zen, goes so far as to say you can't enter jhana with tension in the body. 

 

I think there's something to be said for examination of physical sensations of pain as an application of discernment. For instance, whether it is constant or intermittent, whether the pain is in the body or in the mental aversion.

 

But in terms of cultivation of concentration, relaxation as a side practice feels especially useful.

Edited February 14 by Vajra Fist

[Mark Foote]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:55 AM, Vajra Fist said:

 

I'm still exploring it, but feel like there's a correlation between relaxation and depth of concentration. For instance, Hakuin's soft ointment seems geared toward that. And zhan zhuang, in Corey's interpretation seems to fulfil the same purpose.
 

 

I would agree with that. The trick is, there's also a correlation between relaxation and stretch in the ligaments, more or less throughout the body but particularly in the lower body and along the spine.

For a long time, I assumed that the ligaments could initiate activity in agonist/antagonist muscle groups.  Western science only admits of the ability of the ligaments to influence muscular activity--
 

Here’s a summary of a study that confirms that some of the activity of the lower body is “regulated” by the iliosacral ligaments:

 

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability.

 

(Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049
https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/)

 

(Appendix–“For a Friend”, Revisited)

 

 

In my experience, the stretch of ligaments seems to be a part of reciprocal innervation in paired muscle groups.  Here's John Upledger's description of his experience lying on salt water in an isolation tank::

 

At some point my body began to make fish-like movements, as though my pelvis and legs were the lower part of a fish moving its tail from side to side. This movement was nice and easy. The neurophysiologist in me related these movements to an expression of what we call ‘reciprocal innervation’. The principle here is that, when your trunk is bent to the side in one direction past a certain threshold, the muscles on the other side of the trunk contract. In doing so, the nerve impulses are diverted from the side to which you are bent, and those muscles relax. Your trunk now bends in the opposite direction until that side-bending threshold is passed. The nerve impulses are then diverted again to the opposite side, causing muscle contraction and side bending in that direction.

 

(“Your Inner Physician and You: Craniosacral Therapy and Somatoemotional Release”, John E. Upledger, p. 165)
 

 

 

Quote

 

In the Dharma Drum version of shikantaza (silent illumination), a lot of emphasis is on progressive relaxation before the meditation begins proper. 
 

 

 

Shunryu Suzuki's description of shikantaza:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

Progressive relaxation would be another preparatory practice.  That's an important thing to keep in mind, if depth of concentration is said to be correlated with relaxation.  Not that it isn't, but you can't get there from here.

 

 

Quote

 

Reggie Ray, who is heavily into somatic meditation, partly from zen, goes so far as to say you can't enter jhana with tension in the body. 
 

 

 

I haven't heard of Reggie Ray. 
 

I would say, jhana is about an evenness of stretch, a progressive evening of stretch.  Is there tension in the body?--I would say yes, but at the same time, there's progressive relaxation.

True that in Gautama's mindfulness, relaxation came before the calming of mental factors.  I take the mental factors to be the senses involved in the perception of the precariousness of posture--a lot of that is listening to the stretch of ligaments.

 

 

Quote

 

I think there's something to be said for examination of physical sensations of pain as an application of discernment. For instance, whether it is constant or intermittent, whether the pain is in the body or in the mental aversion.

 

But in terms of cultivation of concentration, relaxation as a side practice feels especially useful.
 

 

 

I haven't found the discernment of pain particularly helpful, other than as a caution and an impetus.  I don't tend to sit on in pain.  Mostly I sit 25's, in a sloppy half-lotus, but if I find a clear presence of mind with one-pointedness I will sit on to 35 or 40.

 

Not doing too many zazenkai's or sesshins, these days (translation: none).  Just sitting at home, morning and night.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Mark Foote

[Nuralshamal]

Thanks everyone, for sharing your experiences

UPDATE:

I've completed the 100 days of standing.

In the MaoShan 100 days of standing, completing the 100 days gives you access to 4 spiritual goodies:
1) Mantra to open qi field of TienZun (One of the 3 purities or San Qing, the Daoist "Divine Trinity").
2) Mantra to bless, heal and remove obstacles from all your living and deceased relatives.
3) Secret way of using standing spiritually to bless, heal and remove obstacles and debts from all your friends, family and acquantainces.

4) Secret talisman that can aid in removing qi blockages and bad energy.

In other ways, completing the 100 days IS WORTH IT! 

If you join MaoShan and do the 100 days of standing, here are my tips:
1) trust with complete faith in the process
2) read, watch and understand as much as you can about correct alignments

3) get your own form as perfect as possible
4) once you know and have checked your form, allow your body and the universal qi to guide your posture

5) at this stage, set up your posture, then let go completely and enter into the meditation, allowing your body to take care of itself

6) prepare yourself for some days of incredible torture, mixed with days of incredible physical, qi and spiritual breakthroughs

After the 100 days you can expect your physical body to have realigned itself and its tissues to a much better setting. Depending on your experience and background in qi and meditation, expect to "level up" in your qi and spiritual abilities.

[Iskote]

I think we should not lump all standing meditation/zhan zhuang practices into one thing.

There are various different approaches and postures and practices out there from different sources and traditions which can also have different purposes, and which may well bring different types of results, that can loosely fall under 'standing practice'.

 

I have practiced the zhan zhuang 'wu ji' standing posture daily for periods of time such as for several month stretches with daily practice in the past.

I usually stand in the wu ji standing posture in one standing session for about 30 to 60 minutes or so.

I don't do any special breathing or mental concentration.

I just stand as naturally and relaxed as I can and keep a relaxed awareness on what I am doing.

My experience with this particular standing practice is it very noticeably builds and circulates qi, and can therefore help with some types of health problems and can help to improve one's overall health and well being, in general.

It is the most effective 'qigong' practice that I have personally come across over many years. Please note I said 'personally'.

That is my personal experience with wu ji zhan zhuang practice. 

 

In my experience and view, for males, at least, you need to be celibate to get the best results with such practice.

Younger men may be able to have sex occasionally and still get half decent results; but, for older men,

in my view you would need to be pretty much celibate to get noticeable results beyond just strengthening muscles and such from this sort of practice. However, your mileage may vary.

 

A side note: Regarding the term 'daoism'. In my experience and understanding, there is no one coherent thing called 'daoism'.

There is a wide array of practices and traditions that may fall under the broad umbrella term of 'daoism', and those

many different practices and traditions can vary widely in regards to viewpoint and actual practices.

I always wonder when people say 'daoism holds to this or daoism holds to that', as that is just not how it is in my experience.

IMO, not only should you narrow down any statement about 'daoism' to a very specific tradition, but really you need to narrow it down to a specific teacher/practitioner when saying this is how they see or do things.

Just my point of view.

All the best.

[Chang dao ling]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:42 AM, Iskote said:

I think we should not lump all standing meditation/zhan zhuang practices into one thing.

There are various different approaches and postures and practices out there from different sources and traditions which can also have different purposes, and which may well bring different types of results, that can loosely fall under 'standing practice'.

 

I have practiced the zhan zhuang 'wu ji' standing posture daily for periods of time such as for several month stretches with daily practice in the past.

I usually stand in the wu ji standing posture in one standing session for about 30 to 60 minutes or so.

I don't do any special breathing or mental concentration.

I just stand as naturally and relaxed as I can and keep a relaxed awareness on what I am doing.

My experience with this particular standing practice is it very noticeably builds and circulates qi, and can therefore help with some types of health problems and can help to improve one's overall health and well being, in general.

It is the most effective 'qigong' practice that I have personally come across over many years. Please note I said 'personally'.

That is my personal experience with wu ji zhan zhuang practice. 

 

In my experience and view, for males, at least, you need to be celibate to get the best results with such practice.

Younger men may be able to have sex occasionally and still get half decent results; but, for older men,

in my view you would need to be pretty much celibate to get noticeable results beyond just strengthening muscles and such from this sort of practice. However, your mileage may vary.

 

A side note: Regarding the term 'daoism'. In my experience and understanding, there is no one coherent thing called 'daoism'.

There is a wide array of practices and traditions that may fall under the broad umbrella term of 'daoism', and those

many different practices and traditions can vary widely in regards to viewpoint and actual practices.

I always wonder when people say 'daoism holds to this or daoism holds to that', as that is just not how it is in my experience.

IMO, not only should you narrow down any statement about 'daoism' to a very specific tradition, but really you need to narrow it down to a specific teacher/practitioner when saying this is how they see or do things.

Just my point of view.

All the best.

@drew121212 @voidisyinyang

Edited March 6 by Chang dao ling

[qin00b]

On 1/17/2024 at 4:17 PM, CityHermit! said:

So I'm visiting my folks' place where I kept these, which is why I didn't post them before, but these are two separate pairs of shoes I used. These aren't the only ones this happened to, and some of my classmates had the same thing happen, but you can see the wear and/or holes on the part where the ball of foot meets the shoe. I, we, would grind our shoes so often and to such an extent that it literally wore down the shoes. So you could see I was being quite literal. That's our method at work.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the friction - I've read others describe this as drawing up so much yin/earth energy that you melt your own shoes. 

[qin00b]

Bit late to the party, but i've been doing a seated ZZ posture as an adjunct/part of qigong, doing about 15 minutes (more or less depending on how my back is doing) And I try to get in a few minutes of ZZ whenever I can. I'll try to set a timer with 2 minute intervals and move through on section of hands to the floor, hands facing, then pointing to lower dan tien, middle dan tien and finally upper dan tien. I find that it's not so hard to hold my legs in a moderately bent position in this manner. 

 

I've also been trying to more fully energize the dan tiens by holding that position for 10 minutes, tho' depending on how the rest of the day's gone, back pain might make it a shorter session. I'll try to do that daily until I feel heat in the affected body region within a couple minutes of starting and/or spontaneous movements. Once I can do that reliably, I'll move on to the next stage (The assumption is that the hands/appropriate dan tien is "full" or properly energized and you can move on to the next bit). Working on middle dan tien now.

 

When practicing, I try to maintain a posture as relaxed as I am able in a state of no-mind. This took some weeks to get used to, but now the "space between thoughts" is decently long and I generally release tension as much as I'm able to without thinking. The session ends when tension becomes so great, I can't release it and/or can't stop thinking about it. 

For smaller doses, I'll try to take a deep stance (keeping in mind ChiRunner's cues) for a shorter time, such as while I'm waiting for coffee to brew. This is mostly just a strengthening exercise, but I'm told that having the deeper stance will generate more energy, but it's harder to release to feel it moving….