Siddhi - The mundane is the same as the mystical

[Geof Nanto]

An interesting discussion. As my interest in in the Chinese traditions I did some research and found the term with a similar meaning to siddhi is 神通 shéntōng. It is used in the context of Buddhism but as far as I can tell Daoists do not use it (although it does apparently occur somewhere in the Zhuangzi). Maybe @Taoist Texts can elaborate on this.

  

More relevant to this discussion, I did some further research and found the Sanskrit term “abhijñā" used in Buddhism to be similar to the term "siddhi". For my own interest, I asked ChatGPT to elaborate on the usage of those two terms:  

 

Spoiler

 

ChatGPT: The Sanskrit term "abhijñā" in Buddhism refers to "direct knowledge" or "higher knowledge." It is often associated with a set of supernormal or extraordinary abilities that a person may develop as a result of advanced spiritual practice. These abilities are akin to the concept of "siddhi" in Hindu and Yogic traditions.

 

In Buddhism, the "abhijñā" abilities are generally divided into six main categories, known as the "Six Higher Knowledges" or "Six Supernatural Powers" (ṣaḍabhijñāḥ). These abilities are often acquired through deep meditation, concentration, and the cultivation of insight. The six abhijñās are:

 

Divine Eye (divyacakṣus): The ability to see things not visible to the ordinary eye, including distant and celestial realms.

 

Divine Ear (divyaśrotra): The ability to hear sounds from great distances, as well as divine and celestial sounds.

 

Knowledge of Others' Thoughts (cetopariyāya-jñāna): The ability to understand the thoughts and mental states of others.

 

Knowledge of Past Lives (pūrvanivāsānusmṛti-jñāna): The ability to recollect past lives and experiences.

 

Miraculous Powers (ṛddhi): The ability to perform various supernatural feats, such as walking on water, flying, and changing one's physical form.

 

Knowledge of the Extinction of Mental Defilements (āsavakkhaya-jñāna): The ability to attain enlightenment and eliminate mental defilements.

 

It's important to note that while these abilities are considered extraordinary, Buddhism places a greater emphasis on the cultivation of wisdom, compassion, and the attainment of liberation (nirvana) as the ultimate goals of spiritual practice. The development of these supernormal powers is viewed as a byproduct of advanced spiritual realization rather than an end in itself. The pursuit of these powers is generally discouraged if it diverts practitioners from the path to liberation and enlightenment.

 

Me: Yes, not ends in themselves. But wouldn't it also be true to say that someone who has obtained enlightenment such as the Buddha would manifest these abilities as something that naturally arises from dwelling in sunyata? 

 

ChatGPT: Yes, you are correct. In the context of Buddhism, especially Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions, the attainment of supernatural powers or abhijñās is often viewed as a natural expression of the advanced spiritual realization that comes with enlightenment. The emphasis is on the idea that these abilities arise spontaneously from the practitioner's deep understanding of the nature of reality (such as emptiness or śūnyatā) and their liberation from mental defilements.

 

According to Buddhist teachings, when a person reaches a state of enlightenment (bodhi) or Buddhahood, their mind is completely free from ignorance and craving. In this state, the normal limitations of the conditioned mind are transcended, leading to the manifestation of extraordinary abilities.

 

The Buddha, for example, is said to have demonstrated various supernormal powers throughout his life, not as a display of personal power, but as a skillful means (upāya) to benefit others and to illustrate certain aspects of the Dharma.

 

In essence, these abilities are considered to be spontaneous expressions of the enlightened mind, and they are not pursued for their own sake. The primary focus remains on the realization of wisdom, compassion, and liberation. The idea is that one who has achieved enlightenment embodies a profound understanding of the true nature of reality, and as a result, extraordinary abilities may naturally manifest.

 

 

I think this is similar to what @Bindi is saying, namely anyone in the Buddhist tradition who claims the great siddhi of full enlightenment must also spontaneously manifest these 'lower' siddhi, otherwise the claim is without substance.

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Geof Nanto said:

the term with a similar meaning to siddhi is 神通 shéntōng. It is used in the context of Buddhism but as far as I can tell Daoists do not use it (although it does apparently occur somewhere in the Zhuangzi). Maybe @Taoist Texts can elaborate on this.

yes   神通 shéntōng is the standart translation of siddhi in neidan and general medieval daoism. It literally means spiritual 神 achievement, therefore siddhis are not physical and are not provable objectively.  Which is a good thing because if spiritual phenomena were physical there would be no spiritual world where we could save ourselves from the physical decay.

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Are you claiming you have achieved the ‘great siddhi’ ie. enlightenment? And if so, enlightenment in what sense? 

no i dont claim enlightenment. i was talking about intellectual understanding of these issues.

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

siddhi, ultimately they’re just something that happens, they’re not a “power”. 

i heard that nothing happens without power

 

19 hours ago, Neirong said:

Cultivation does not have an endgoal

 

no rest for the wicked

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes   神通 shéntōng is the standart translation of siddhi in neidan and general medieval daoism. It literally means spiritual 神 achievement, therefore siddhis are not physical and are not provable objectively. 
 

 

Meaning of 神通

神通 (Chinese)

trad. and simpl. 神通

Origin & history

Originally a Buddhist concept, it referred to one who possessed divine powers. Later on, it came to be used metaphorically to describe anyone with a special talent.

Pronunciation

Mandarin: shéntōng

Cantonese: san⁴ tung¹

Min Nan: sîn-thong

Noun

神通

1. special talent; remarkable ability
2. magical power

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Which is a good thing because if spiritual phenomena were physical there would be no spiritual world where we could save ourselves from the physical decay.

 

Odd reasoning. I think you are creating an interpretation that suits your preferences and experience as opposed to an objective understanding. 

 

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no i dont claim enlightenment. i was talking about intellectual understanding of these issues.

 

Glad to hear it 😉

 

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i heard that nothing happens without power

I was saying that I don’t think ‘enlightenment’ is a siddhi, as in its not a divine power or special talent or magical power, it’s a state that may be achieved, a divine state maybe, and a special state, just not a siddhi, not least because a siddhi is observable and enlightenment is not. 

 

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no rest for the wicked

 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Bindi

[Jadespear]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:03 PM, Cobie said:

‘Those who know’ know ‘siddhis’ are internal, part of one’s own consciousness (subjective).

But till one knows one cannot exclude anything. 
Some Westerners think ‘siddhis’ are external, part of the physical world (objective).

No ‘sane & honest’ person has ever experienced such thing (being non-existent). 
 

 

 

...no they aren't - you're wrong.  They are not subjective at all, they are an objective expression that creates events in real time that can be observed by anyone.  

 

...why else do you think there is such a large tradition of them in these subjects?  Your statement is implying that these are figments of ones imagination... 

[Nintendao]

I thought it was the other way around. As Lu Yan told Tripitikas when he had passed through the gate-of-no-gate into the Forbidden Kingdom: "Where you came from is the dream."

 

Only on rare and auspicious occasions will a causal realm event be transmitted to the lower dimension with enough energy to break a natural law.

[Jadespear]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:24 AM, Nintendao said:

I thought it was the other way around. As Lu Yan told Tripitikas when he had passed through the gate-of-no-gate into the Forbidden Kingdom: "Where you came from is the dream."

 

Only on rare and auspicious occasions will a causal realm event be transmitted to the lower dimension with enough energy to break a natural law.

so- you think using an example from a fantasy fictional movie is going to help you understand the mysteries of how life operates? …ok.  
 

they are part of the natural law- that’s the whole point.  They are not understood by science because there is little research of them.  
 

sounds like you’re just speculating without any experience… sorry but- it doesn’t sound like you know anything practical about what you’re talking about.  

[Nintendao]

52 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

so- you think using an example from a fantasy fictional movie is going to help you understand the mysteries of how life operates?

It's more like the other way around. Understanding the mysteries of how life operates allows one to more deeply relate to fiction, or any other artform. I'm not saying it was real, I'm just saying what it said. 

 

53 minutes ago, Jadespear said:

they are part of the natural law- that’s the whole point.  They are not understood by science because there is little research of them.

Science goes the other way around. We know how massive an amount of energy a hadron collider must put into making a few dozen subatomic particles literally transform into and out of existence. The energy of heaven is limitless.

 

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

sounds like you’re just speculating without any experience… sorry but- it doesn’t sound like you know anything practical about what you’re talking about.  

I went the other way around. I've already experienced more than I care to enumerate of gain/loss, nurture/abuse, mundanity/mystery. So now i'm just hanging out.

 

[Taoist Texts]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:00 PM, Jadespear said:

They are not subjective at all, they are an objective expression that creates events in real time that can be observed by anyone.  

anyone eh? so which siddhi did you personally observe?

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

… now i'm just hanging out. …

Same here, and that’s ‘enlightenment’ imo.  

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Cobie