Siddhi - The mundane is the same as the mystical

[stirling]

20 hours ago, Cobie said:

Exactly.

 

Huuuge ego imo.  

  Reveal hidden contents

Done it myself occasionally but let’s forget about that for now. 

 

It’s more something other people will call you when it is observable by others from e.g. here on a forum, your posts.

 

That's fine, though I wish people would ask me WHY I would say it rather than attribute some nefarious intention on my part with no grounds for doing so. 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I can completely understand how the Tibetan position (and my posting it as a framework) could upset you, based on your feelings on the matter. It was honestly an unintended consequence. 

 

I DO experience some of the siddhis (depending on which groups we are talking about) and am naturally curious about the others, but haven't met any teachers of any walk of life that can reliably fly, teleport, become giant or tiny, etc. Of course, I would LOVE to meet someone like that.

 

I have met teachers who can read minds (not volitionally) and seem to have intentions granted over an over again in a synchronistic way (myself included), and can't see any reason that any siddhi might be impossible, but it seems to me that you would need to understand a few things about the nature of things for them to present... thus my question. My curiousity is about whether or not those happen before or after insight (enlightenment). 

 

 

Sure. I'm interested in meeting those that have those ability and comparing notes. 

 

 

That truly isn't my position in the slightest.
 

 

To me “enlightenment” is quite a loaded word, I have heard people try to get around it by referring to an enlightening state, or using the term awakened, which is indeed a common claim. The main difference being, where enlightened takes lifetimes, awakening can be achieved on the first day of a nondual programme. 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My question is about the order in which the two arise or correlate.

 

 

I don’t think siddhis would correlate much at all with the perspective shift of the awakened, as awakening has no effect on the subtle energy body which is the ground from which siddhis arise IMO.

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. I think you would be surprised by how many enlightened "people" there are, and what an ordinary thing it actually is.

 

 

In Mahayana Buddhism ALL people are already enlightened and simply don't realize their true nature. It only takes a perspective shift to see that this is the case in my experience. I have met many people who have had this happen. I go ahead and say it because I think it is something that needs to be demystified so that people can realize just how achievable and commonplace it is. This is the motivation for me. 

 

From another source altogether:

 

 

I'm sorry that we don't seem to mesh. I am happy to own my part of that, and am sorry to offend you.

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

To me “enlightenment” is quite a loaded word, I have heard people try to get around it by referring to an enlightening state, or using the term awakened, which is indeed a common claim. The main difference being, where enlightened takes lifetimes, awakening can be achieved on the first day of a nondual programme. 

 

I agree! I use it for that reason, honestly. I think it needs some unloading. To me it means to have a clarity or understanding, and that is how it best makes sense to me.

 

My experience is that awakening is a first insight after which seeing the nature of things is an available perspective, but NOT a stabilized viewpoint, or complete seeing. This is when the nature of things is realized not to be a "state", but an underlying reality that is always present. Over time dualities dissolve and eventually the delusion of "self" dissolves, which leaves a very solid and permanent experience of "no-self" in all situations and moments. In the Zen traditions this is typically said to take approximately 10 years, which is when you get many people retreating to caves, etc. 

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don’t think siddhis would correlate much at all with the perspective shift of the awakened, as awakening has no effect on the subtle energy body which is the ground from which siddhis arise IMO.

 

The question of where a siddhi would arise from is an interesting one. In my opinion, things arise where the right causes and conditions are present, but I can't say for sure what the causes and conditions necessary to precipitate siddhis would be. I DO think that having a stabilized view that has dissolved a great number of dualities creates an openness that allows for at least some types of siddhis to appear.

 

For example:

 

Quote

...all things and phenomena are marked by emptiness;

they are neither appearing nor disappearing, neither impure nor pure,
neither increasing nor decreasing.

 

Therefore, in emptiness,

no forms, no sensations, perceptions, impressions, or consciousness;

no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind;

no sights, sounds, odors, tastes, objects of touch, objects of mind;

no realm of sight and so on up to no realm of consciousness;

no ignorance and no end of ignorance, and so on up to no aging and death, and no end of aging and death;

no suffering, accumulation, cessation, or path; no wisdom and no attainment. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

These aren't exactly siddhis, but they are the consequences of seeing through all dualities, and actively change how reality is. How this is understood and experienced is not immediately obvious, without some explanation, but very real nonetheless.

 

I have had some success in working with various kinds of entities that has been possible with the addition of simple rituals. It could easily be that having the right ritual (and the necessary insight or mind-set) might unlock some or all of them? If I get any further, I promise to share. 

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I agree! I use it for that reason, honestly. I think it needs some unloading. To me it means to have a clarity or understanding, and that is how it best makes sense to me.

 

 

I think I’ll stick with what the Buddha was recorded as saying:

 

"Then, monks, this is the criterion whereby a monk, apart from faith, apart from persuasion, apart from inclination, apart from rational speculation, apart from delight in views and theories, could affirm the attainment of enlightenment: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been accomplished, what was to be done is done, there is no further living in this world.'"

 

From the Atthinukhopariyaayo Sutta of the Pali Tipitaka (Samyutta Nikaya 35.152).

 

But, next time I read that you are enlightened I will give it a stirling spin and tolerate it 🙂

 

7 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My experience is that awakening is a first insight after which seeing the nature of things is an available perspective, but NOT a stabilized viewpoint, or complete seeing. This is when the nature of things is realized not to be a "state", but an underlying reality that is always present. Over time dualities dissolve and eventually the delusion of "self" dissolves, which leaves a very solid and permanent experience of "no-self" in all situations and moments. In the Zen traditions this is typically said to take approximately 10 years, which is when you get many people retreating to caves, etc. 

 

 

The question of where a siddhi would arise from is an interesting one. In my opinion, things arise where the right causes and conditions are present, but I can't say for sure what the causes and conditions necessary to precipitate siddhis would be. I DO think that having a stabilized view that has dissolved a great number of dualities creates an openness that allows for at least some types of siddhis to appear.

 

I suspect siddhis are dependent on the subtle channels being cleared and flowing, Ida, pingala and sushumna in yoga, and lalana, rasana and avadhuti in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps some pseudo-siddhis appear after awakening, perhaps not, but the demonstrable ones I’m interested in tend to be associated with development of the subtle channels. 

 

7 hours ago, stirling said:

For example:

 

 

These aren't exactly siddhis, but they are the consequences of seeing through all dualities, and actively change how reality is. How this is understood and experienced is not immediately obvious, without some explanation, but very real nonetheless.

 

I have had some success in working with various kinds of entities that has been possible with the addition of simple rituals. It could easily be that having the right ritual (and the necessary insight or mind-set) might unlock some or all of them? If I get any further, I promise to share. 

I wouldn’t personally include working with entities as a siddhi, but that might just be me, I prefer to stay well clear of entities. 

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I think I’ll stick with what the Buddha was recorded as saying:

 

"Then, monks, this is the criterion whereby a monk, apart from faith, apart from persuasion, apart from inclination, apart from rational speculation, apart from delight in views and theories, could affirm the attainment of enlightenment: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been accomplished, what was to be done is done, there is no further living in this world.'"

 

From the Atthinukhopariyaayo Sutta of the Pali Tipitaka (Samyutta Nikaya 35.152).

 

But, next time I read that you are enlightened I will give it a stirling spin and tolerate it 🙂

 

 

I suspect siddhis are dependent on the subtle channels being cleared and flowing, Ida, pingala and sushumna in yoga, and lalana, rasana and avadhuti in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps some pseudo-siddhis appear after awakening, perhaps not, but the demonstrable ones I’m interested in tend to be associated with development of the subtle channels. 

 

I wouldn’t personally include working with entities as a siddhi, but that might just be me, I prefer to stay well clear of entities. 

 

I'm sure I've said this before - so at the risk of being boringly repetetive  - I think there are two groups of siddhis (not counting the extraordinary siddhi of enlightenment).

 

There are those of awareness - like clairvoyance, precognition, distance seeing, mind reading and so on.  And those of power which would include levitation, bilocation, transmutation of matter and so on.  I think they are quite different as the first set are quite common and 'easy' to acquire - while the later are rare and depend on a very advanced state of being.

 

In fact the first set can just arise naturally because of the impact on the subtle body through basic things like following the breath or basic meditation techniques.  I think they are essentially a form of resonance between one's being and the field or continuum of energy/spirit which is our environment.  They do depend on the removal of obstructions in the channels and activation of winds.

 

The second I can't say much about because I have no idea how they are achieved - but they are clearly a major step change from the first set and from our normal modes of being.

 

I think people are discouraged from interest in siddhis because of their attraction.  Or rather distraction.  In fact trying to acquire them probably makes it much harder for them to develop.  As focus of that kind acts as an inhibiter because it engages the type of perception we use for sense object manipulation.

 

If you practice then the first type will most likely arise after a period of time almost without you noticing - but could be taken as a sign of progress if you don't get too attached to them.

 

I think in more ancient times it was a lot easier for people to develop various siddhis because people's minds were not so locked into materialism.  Nowadays its much harder.  Kali Yuga and all that ----

 

 

 

 

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

in more ancient times it was a lot easier for people to develop various siddhis

 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I think I’ll stick with what the Buddha was recorded as saying:

 

"Then, monks, this is the criterion whereby a monk, apart from faith, apart from persuasion, apart from inclination, apart from rational speculation, apart from delight in views and theories, could affirm the attainment of enlightenment: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been accomplished, what was to be done is done, there is no further living in this world.'"

 

From the Atthinukhopariyaayo Sutta of the Pali Tipitaka (Samyutta Nikaya 35.152).

 

If we are looking at Pali, I would consider:
 

Quote

 

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental effluents. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the way leading to the cessation of stress...These are effluents...This is the origination of effluents...This is the cessation of effluents...This is the way leading to the cessation of effluents.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the effluent of sensuality, released from the effluent of becoming, released from the effluent of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

 

This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose-as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, and resolute. - Buddha, Pali Canon m.19

 

 

In particular I would draw attention to the bolded section. The salient question then becomes: Ignorance of what... knowledge of what? The original answer was "anatta", but the deeper answer (IMHO) is "sunyata".

 

Of course, the Buddha is only one of infinite enlightened beings. Perhaps the simplest and cleanest expression of sunyata ever expressed was:

 

Quote

 

...form is no different to emptiness, emptiness no different to form.

That which is form is emptiness, that which is emptiness, form. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

 

or there is something like:
 

Quote

 

Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend, 
and when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.
When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes,
and when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.

 

- Verses on the Faith Mind
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an 
Third Zen Patriarch [d. 606 AD]

 

 

There are countless worthy expressions. 

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

But, next time I read that you are enlightened I will give it a stirling spin and tolerate it 🙂

 

Deep bows to you.

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I suspect siddhis are dependent on the subtle channels being cleared and flowing, Ida, pingala and sushumna in yoga, and lalana, rasana and avadhuti in Tibetan Buddhism. Perhaps some pseudo-siddhis appear after awakening, perhaps not, but the demonstrable ones I’m interested in tend to be associated with development of the subtle channels.

 

I have studied many available works of the Tibetan tradition, but I confess that I not really worked with subtle channels, aside from what is require to experiment with tummo. The Dzogchen path is a particular set of practices. 

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I wouldn’t personally include working with entities as a siddhi, but that might just be me, I prefer to stay well clear of entities. 

 

Seen from the perspective of emptiness, entities are harmless, though I definitely get where you are coming from. Visions of angels, Buddhas, the "dead" etc. are what I have experience with. The Buddhas view is that we see such things (like all phenomena) like this:

 

Quote

So you should view this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, A flash of lightening in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream. - Buddha, Diamond Sutra

 

We are ultimately empty of an "I" that can truly be harmed by such things, in my experience. 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I'm sure I've said this before - so at the risk of being boringly repetetive  - I think there are two groups of siddhis (not counting the extraordinary siddhi of enlightenment).
 

Repeating something once is certainly not boring or repetitive, especially when it’s about a somewhat difficult subject. I find your perspective very interesting and it gives me much to consider. 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

There are those of awareness - like clairvoyance, precognition, distance seeing, mind reading and so on.  And those of power which would include levitation, bilocation, transmutation of matter and so on.  I think they are quite different as the first set are quite common and 'easy' to acquire - while the later are rare and depend on a very advanced state of being.

 

In fact the first set can just arise naturally because of the impact on the subtle body through basic things like following the breath or basic meditation techniques.  I think they are essentially a form of resonance between one's being and the field or continuum of energy/spirit which is our environment.  They do depend on the removal of obstructions in the channels and activation of winds.

 

The second I can't say much about because I have no idea how they are achieved - but they are clearly a major step change from the first set and from our normal modes of being.

 

 

I really don’t know much about it either, but I would hazard a guess that the second set are dependent on authentically and appropriately activating kundalini.

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think people are discouraged from interest in siddhis because of their attraction.  Or rather distraction.  In fact trying to acquire them probably makes it much harder for them to develop.  As focus of that kind acts as an inhibiter because it engages the type of perception we use for sense object manipulation.

 

Discouraging interest in siddhis as an end in themselves is wise I think, seeing them as a natural consequence of clearing and developing the subtle energy body whilst not over identifying with them egotistically should be par for the course. 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you practice then the first type will most likely arise after a period of time almost without you noticing - but could be taken as a sign of progress if you don't get too attached to them.

 

I think in more ancient times it was a lot easier for people to develop various siddhis because people's minds were not so locked into materialism.  Nowadays its much harder.  Kali Yuga and all that ----

 

 

 

[Apech]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

Repeating something once is certainly not boring or repetitive, especially when it’s about a somewhat difficult subject. I find your perspective very interesting and it gives me much to consider. 

 

 

I really don’t know much about it either, but I would hazard a guess that the second set are dependent on authentically and appropriately activating kundalini.

 

I don't think kundalini is sufficient to explain the difference between the two categories of siddhis.  For instance the Six Yogas of Naropa - the most well known being inner heat or 'candali' - which is obviously kundalini - is really a type 1 siddhi boosted by kundalini.

 

The six yogas are:

 

inner heat (tummo; T. gtum mo གཏུམ་མོ་; Skt. caṇḍālī) – entails the manipulation of the subtle energy of the body, which produces states of bliss and clarity, as well as physical warmth

illusory body (gyulü; T sgyu lus སྒྱུ་ལུས; Skt. māyākāyā) – entails realizing the illusory nature of ordinary experience

clear light (ösel; T od gsal འོད་གསལ་; Skt. prabhasvara) – entails recognizing the luminous aspect of mind

dream (milam; T. rmi lam རྨི་ལམ་; Skt: svapna[-darśana]) – developing conscious awareness in the dream state

transference (phowa; T. pho ba འཕོ་བ་; Skt: saṃkrānti) – directing transference of consciousness at the time of death, for either oneself or another

intermediate state (bardo; T. bar do བར་དོ་; Skt: antarābhava) – entails maintaining awareness during the intermediate state (bardo) between the death of one lifetime and rebirth into the next lifetime.

 

So I would say these are advanced versions of type 1 siddhis.

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

Discouraging interest in siddhis as an end in themselves is wise I think, seeing them as a natural consequence of clearing and developing the subtle energy body whilst not over identifying with them egotistically should be par for the course. 

 

 

 

Yes - they can be seen as signs of development without dwelling on them very much.

[liminal_luke]

As a side note, it's tricky to talk about our own attainments and abilities without sounding like an egoist.  For instance, I think I'm a good writer.  I think I'm a good listener.  Not the best writer or best listener but good, well above average.  Wlhatdaya think -- do I sound hopelessly narcissistic?  There should be a way for people to share their own positive opinions about themselves in a matter-of-fact way, without coming off as braggarts.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Jadespear]

On 12/20/2023 at 12:16 PM, stirling said:

I have met teachers who can read minds (not volitionally) and seem to have intentions granted over an over again in a synchronistic way (myself included), and can't see any reason that any siddhi might be impossible, but it seems to me that you would need to understand a few things about the nature of things for them to present... thus my question. My curiousity is about whether or not those happen before or after insight (enlightenment). 

 

...Striling - it seems like you are attempting to understand this in terms or some cause-effect relationship.  As if to imply and hypothesize that one cannot occur before the other... Is this your suspicion?

 

If it is - please remember that not all people have ever experienced things in a perfectly linear way...  each tradition or school probably has a focus, but that is all.  There is no "grand enlightenment" that is a pre-requisite, as that word and concept doesn't mean anything if taken in this context - as to mean anything but a person resting in their own true nature.  Which sounds like what you describe "enlightenment" to be.  However there are the correct circumstances internally that when disposed in certain ways allow the expression of Siddhis to occur.  So in other words, yes - there is a cause and effect relationship.  The causal part is a combination of what oneself is, how oneself is, and how one directs ones mind.  

[Maddie]

46 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

As a side note, it's tricky to talk about our own attainments and abilities without sounding like an egoist.  For instance, I think I'm a good writer.  I think I'm a good listener.  Not the best writer or best listener but good, well above average.  Wlhatdaya think -- do I sound hopelessly narcissistic?  There should be a way for people to share their own positive opinions about themselves in a matter-of-fact way, without coming off as braggarts.  

 

I agree and have the same concern about not being a deluded narcissist. I think one good way to know if we are good at what we think we are good at is from feedback from a large sample size of people. 

 

I think you write well, I also think you listen well. I imagine that you get told this often by other people too. Therefore you can feel reasonably confident that your feeling about your writing and listening skills are accurate. 

 

I think I'm a good acupuncturist. My patients tell me I'm a good acupuncturist. So I tend to think I am a good acupuncturist and am not deluding myself. Also I don't think I sing well. Sometimes I live stream and sing and people tend to disappear when I do this. This supports my notion that I should not get into a singing career anytime soon lol.  

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Also I don't think I sing well.

 

You and me both!  For better or worse, what I lack in vocal ability I make up for in vocal enthusiasm.  For my graduation from elementary school, our class would perform Looks Like We Made It by Barry Manilow. I was the only student in the bunch instructed to lip sing.  

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You and me both!  For better or worse, what I lack in vocal ability I make up for in vocal enthusiasm.  For my graduation from elementary school, our class would perform Looks Like We Made It by Barry Manilow. I was the only student in the bunch instructed to lip sing.  

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

22 hours ago, Bindi said:

Discouraging interest in siddhis as an end in themselves is wise I think,  

my special interest is to see how every concept in a traditional eastern teaching gets flipped on its head in the west, so it becomes a 180 degree opposite of itself

in the original teaching the siddhis are an all important end in themselves. in the western imitation they are pooh-poohed. this flip is mildly fascinating to observe.

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

my special interest is to see how every concept in a traditional eastern teaching gets flipped on its head in the west, so it becomes a 180 degree opposite of itself

in the original teaching the siddhis are an all important end in themselves. in the western imitation they are pooh-poohed. this flip is mildly fascinating to observe.

Interesting! Which original teachings? 

[Taoist Texts]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Interesting! Which original teachings? 

literally every one. in each and everyone one of siddhi are not a by-product "not to be dwelt on much" lol. they are the ultimate goal.

Hindu and Jain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha

buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhijñā

conf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_esotericism#Confucianism

taoism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13173/zeitdeutmorggese.160.1.0121

 

you guys are killing me. softly heh.;)

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Source: Wikipedia 

[Cobie]

‘Those who know’ know ‘siddhis’ are internal, part of one’s own consciousness (subjective).

But till one knows one cannot exclude anything. 
Some Westerners think ‘siddhis’ are external, part of the physical world (objective).

No ‘sane & honest’ person has ever experienced such thing (being non-existent). 
 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Cobie

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

literally every one. in each and everyone one of siddhi are not a by-product "not to be dwelt on much" lol. they are the ultimate goal.

Hindu and Jain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddha

buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhijñā

conf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_esotericism#Confucianism

taoism

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13173/zeitdeutmorggese.160.1.0121

 

you guys are killing me. softly heh.;)

I read your first reference and from that searched ‘attamasiddhigal (ashtasiddhi)’ being the eight powers of a siddha. This site https://lifetimeyogi.com/what-are-siddhis/#google_vignette described these eight powers fairly well, and stated no less than three times that siddhis were not the aim:

 

“It is important to note that the attainment of Siddhis is not the ultimate goal of Tantra Yoga. The ultimate goal is spiritual awakening and the realization of the true nature of the self. Siddhis are considered to be byproducts of spiritual progress and are not to be pursued for their own sake.”
 

 “In Hinduism, the focus is on spiritual growth and realization of the self rather than on possessing extraordinary abilities or powers. While Ashta Siddhi may be considered desirable, the ultimate goal of spiritual practice is to attain inner peace, wisdom, and liberation from the cycle of birth and death.”
 

 “In conclusion, while the Ashta Mahasiddhis may be considered extraordinary and desirable, the ultimate goal of spiritual practice is to attain inner peace, wisdom, and liberation from the cycle of birth and death. The attainment of these powers is considered to be a byproduct of spiritual practice, rather than the ultimate goal.”

 

I’d have to do a lot more research to be sure, but I’ve never read that siddhis are the aim in the direct texts of Hinduism or Buddhism. If you can find an example of siddhis being the aim in a primary text I would be both surprised and interested. 

 

As a side note, this same link claimed that “Siddhis are supernatural powers or abilities that can be achieved through the practice of tantra yoga. These powers are believed to be associated with the awakening of the Kundalini, which is a dormant energy located at the base of the spine in Muladhara Chakra. When this energy is awakened, it rises up through the chakras, or energy centers, in the body, leading to a state of higher consciousness up to Sahasrar for achieving liberation.”

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

23 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I read your first reference and from that searched ‘attamasiddhigal (ashtasiddhi)’ being the eight powers of a siddha. This site https://lifetimeyogi.com/what-are-siddhis/#google_vignette described these eight powers fairly well, and stated no less than three times that siddhis were not the aim:

 

“It is important to note that the attainment of Siddhis is not the ultimate goal of Tantra Yoga. The ultimate goal is spiritual awakening and the realization of the true nature of the self. Siddhis are considered to be byproducts of spiritual progress and are not to be pursued for their own sake.”
 

 “In Hinduism, the focus is on spiritual growth and realization of the self rather than on possessing extraordinary abilities or powers. While Ashta Siddhi may be considered desirable, the ultimate goal of spiritual practice is to attain inner peace, wisdom, and liberation from the cycle of birth and death.”
 

 “In conclusion, while the Ashta Mahasiddhis may be considered extraordinary and desirable, the ultimate goal of spiritual practice is to attain inner peace, wisdom, and liberation from the cycle of birth and death. The attainment of these powers is considered to be a byproduct of spiritual practice, rather than the ultimate goal.”

 

I’d have to do a lot more research to be sure, but I’ve never read that siddhis are the aim in the direct texts of Hinduism or Buddhism. If you can find an example of siddhis being the aim in a primary text I would be both surprised and interested. 

 

As a side note, this same link claimed that “Siddhis are supernatural powers or abilities that can be achieved through the practice of tantra yoga. These powers are believed to be associated with the awakening of the Kundalini, which is a dormant energy located at the base of the spine in Muladhara Chakra. When this energy is awakened, it rises up through the chakras, or energy centers, in the body, leading to a state of higher consciousness up to Sahasrar for achieving liberation.”

Don’t bother with him, he has nothing of value to add. He just goes into threads to argue with people. As you have just shown, he hasn’t even read the links he posted.

 

Just continue the discussion as if he’s not here so it doesn’t get derailed.

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

stated no less than three times that siddhis were not the aim:

i know. like i just said, that is what the western amateurs keep claiming, angrily.

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

If you can find an example of siddhis being the aim in a primary text I would be both surprised and interested. 

that will require a long thoughtful discussion. i am not sure you need that. so instead  i will refer you to the highest authority:

 

On 12/21/2023 at 8:01 PM, Apech said:

(not counting the extraordinary siddhi of enlightenment).

Apech told it best: enlightenment  is the aim AND it is a siddhi.

 

But ppl do not put 2 and 2 together: that those smaller siddhis are just the facets  and the stepping stones of the great one. Of course it  is unprovable, only realized on one's own like i did,  so thats that;)

11 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Don’t bother with him, he has nothing of value to add. He just goes into threads to argue with people

 bossy and angry;). both liver issues caused by wrong neigong.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i know. like i just said, that is what the western amateurs keep claiming, angrily.

that will require a long thoughtful discussion. i am not sure you need that. so instead  i will refer you to the highest authority:

 

Apech told it best: enlightenment  is the aim AND it is a siddhi.

 

I find myself warming to you TT.

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

But ppl do not put 2 and 2 together: that those smaller siddhis are just the facets  and the stepping stones of the great one. Of course it  is unprovable, only realized on one's own like i did,  so thats that;)

 bossy and angry;). both liver issues caused by wrong neigong.

 

This discussion puts in mind the terms vidyadhara and mahasiddha as used in Buddhism.  

 

The problem I think about siddhis is not their nature but the nature of the human mind in seeking them.  Our minds are 'trained' to deal with sense objects in the external world.  That's how we operate to survive-  So we develop the strongest perception in relation to this.  How to use tools, make fire, hunt game etc. etc.  This kind of perception is based on name and form.  You know what something is because you have understood how to use it.  Use it to provide food and shelter, to defend yourself and so on.  So if someone presents you with the idea that you could say - know what someone else is thinking.  Then this perception would hone in on that, supposing it believes it possible - to try to possess the means to do it.  In other words an attempt to grasp it and add it to your other ordinary skills.  'If only I could levitate over this busy traffic to get to work quicker' and so on.

 

But significantly, in my experience, the way of a naljor (yogi) starts (?) in letting go in order to return to base.  By base I mean our (true) nature.  From this true nature which is essentially in itself not-different to the whole continuum of power/consciousness which we are and in which we are - arise siddhis simply because it is true and unlimited.  I am not saying that there is no way to acquire siddhis in the sense of process - of course there is.  But it is not the way of the ordinary acquisitive mind.  That is not the mind of 'wanting'.  So it is said 'if you want power you won't get it'.

 

For instance you can intend to 'see' clairvoyantly but the method is one of letting go of wanting and grasping and allowing.  This is why, I think, they say don't aim for siddhis - because to do so would boost the wrong kind of intention and  lead to failure or distortion.

 

 

[Neirong]

17 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Source: Wikipedia 

Don't tell him about WikiHow.

 

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

literally every one. in each and everyone one of siddhi are not a by-product "not to be dwelt on much" lol. they are the ultimate goal.

Cultivation does not have an endgoal.The more you grow the bigger the world you see.
If that does not happen, the only thing that grows is your Ego and delusion.

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

i know. like i just said, that is what the western amateurs keep claiming, angrily.

that will require a long thoughtful discussion. i am not sure you need that. so instead  i will refer you to the highest authority:

 

Apech told it best: enlightenment  is the aim AND it is a siddhi.

 

 

Enlightenment as the historical Buddha meant it, or in the sense of kundalini reaching the crown chakra, or the production of the spiritual child, each end point is different I think, and they might all be just steps on the way. I personally can’t see how any of these three could be called a siddhi, ultimately they’re just something that happens, they’re not a “power”. 

 

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

But ppl do not put 2 and 2 together: that those smaller siddhis are just the facets  and the stepping stones of the great one.
 

 

I do agree that the siddhis may be just facets and stepping stones, but they should be demonstrable if they have truly been activated. 

 

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Of course it  is unprovable, only realized on one's own like i did,  so thats that;)

 

Are you claiming you have achieved the ‘great siddhi’ ie. enlightenment? And if so, enlightenment in what sense? 

 

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 bossy and angry;). both liver issues caused by wrong neigong.