Ask an acupuncturist

[Maddie]

I thought I would make a thread where if anyone has questions about TCM or acupuncture they can feel free to ask. I am a licensed acupuncturist. 

 

*nothing I say constitutes a doctor patient relationship. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Maddie

[ChiDragon]

Do you think that acupuncture has anything to with the human nervous system? If so, how does it relate to it? Have you ever studied the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems?

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Do you think that acupuncture has anything to with the human nervous system? If so, how does it relate to it? Have you ever studied the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems?

 

Absolutely, in fact the main effect from acupuncture is achieved through the nervous system. Most issues of chronic pain are the nervous system putting a part of the body into fight or flight "sympathetic nervous system". For example when someone sustains an injury in the shoulder, the tissues are damaged and bleed. The nervous system responds by putting that part of the body into fight or flight which closes down the capillary circulation so one does not bleed too much inside their bodies which is useful during the moment of injury. The problem is when the nervous system gets stuck in sympathetic and the capillary circulation never returns in a sufficient quantity for tissue repair to take place, so the injury never heals properly.

   Acupuncture tells the nervous system to take that part of the body out of sympathetic and put it back into parasympathetic (rest, relax, and repair). When this happens the capillary circulation opens up again and then the damage begins to repair. 

   So yes acupuncture accomplishes most of its effect via the nervous system.  

[ChiDragon]

Thank you very much for your prompt response!

Edited December 14, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

18 minutes ago, Maddie said:

So yes acupuncture accomplishes most of its effect via the nervous system.  

Do you think that all of the acupoints is riding on all the nerves throughout the human body?

Edited December 14, 2023 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

25 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Acupuncture tells the nervous system to take that part of the body out of sympathetic and put it back into parasympathetic (rest, relax, and repair). When this happens the capillary circulation opens up again and then the damage begins to repair. 

Did you learn about the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems in the acupuncture class or discovered that on your own study?

[Maddie]

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Do you think that all of the acupoints is riding on all the nerves throughout the human body?

 

We are actually not trying to hit nerves with the needles. We are trying to hit acupuncture points, which have an effect on the nervous system, but are not nerves themselves. 

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

We are actually not trying to hit nerves with the needles. We are trying to hit acupuncture points, which have an effect on the nervous system, but are not nerves themselves. 

There is an sensation when the needle hits an acupoint. You don't think the sensation was coming from the nervous system.

I am sure you have read the book, Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibution. I have both the Chinese and English version. In the book, it points out that each acupoint innervates certain nerve in our body. What do you think about that? I have followed the mapping of the meridian. They are concurrent with all the nerves in the human body. The Chinese claims that even through the meridians are concurrent with the nerves system, but still they are not related. This is something that I cannot related to or accept. What do you think about that?

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

There is an sensation when the needle hits an acupoint. You don't think the sensation was coming from the nervous system.

I am sure you have read the book, Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibution. I have both the Chinese and English version. In the book, it points out that each acupoint innervates certain nerve in our body. What do you think about that? I have followed the mapping of the meridian. They are concurrent with all the nerves in the human body. The Chinese claims that even through the meridians are concurrent with the nerves system, but still they are not related. This is something that I cannot related to or accept. What do you think about that?

 

The needles activate the nervous system for sure, but we are not sticking needles into nerves. That would be bad. 

[ChiDragon]

26 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

The needles activate the nervous system for sure, but we are not sticking needles into nerves. That would be bad. 

This is where my problem lies with this contradiction. How can the nerves be activated without any connection?

Edited December 14, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Sanity Check]

@Maddie from the 1st posts of yours I saw on this forum, I thought you were a materialist who denies the existence of supernatural things like God or qi.

 

How did a materialist who does not believe in qi, wind up becoming an acupuncturist who follows a theory of sticking needles in supernatural energy meridians to balance supernatural energy flows like qi.

 

It must have been an interesting journey to say the least.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Sanity Check

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This is where my problem lies with this contradiction. How can the nerves be activated without any connection?

 

I didn't say there wasn't a connection. I said we don't touch the nerves themselves with the needles. 

[Maddie]

14 minutes ago, Sanity Check said:

@Maddie from the 1st posts of yours I saw on this forum, I thought you were a materialist who denies the existence of supernatural things like God or qi.

 

How did a materialist who does not believe in qi, wind up becoming an acupuncturist who follows a theory of sticking needles in supernatural energy meridians to balance supernatural energy flows like qi.

 

It must have been an interesting journey to say the least.

 

Because the meridians are not supernatural, but very natural lol. 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I didn't say there wasn't a connection. I said we don't touch the nerves themselves with the needles. 

I know you didn't say so. You did implicate that there is a connection but I just couldn't pin point it. That is why I asked the question.

Edited December 14, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

I know you didn't say so. You did implicate that there is a connection but I could pin point it.

 

We needle acupuncture points. The acupuncture points activate the nervous system. This is thought to occur through the fascia between the acupuncture point and needle and nearby nerves. The exact mechanisms by which it works are still not fully understood. 

[liminal_luke]

I've got a question.  How effect are acupuncture and chinese herbs for schizophrenia?  Have you or your collegues suceeded in helping anybody with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder to reduce or eliminate antipsychotic medication?  Thanks!

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I've got a question.  How effect are acupuncture and chinese herbs for schizophrenia?  Have you or your collegues suceeded in helping anybody with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder to reduce or eliminate antipsychotic medication?  Thanks!

 

That is a good question, but mental health was my area of focus in school. So to answer your question, this is a more difficult one to treat and because of the nature of the disease I unfortunately don't get a lot of opportunity to treat it, but with that being said there is a lot that acupuncture and herbs can do for any mental health issue, including Schizophrenia. 

 

*most cases of Schizophrenia would be a TCM condition called "phlegm misting the orifices of the heart". 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Maddie

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

We needle acupuncture points. The acupuncture points activate the nervous system. This is thought to occur through the fascia between the acupuncture point and needle and nearby nerves. The exact mechanisms by which it works are still not fully understood. 

Thank you! You have given me the answer that I wanted to hear. Your idea was always presented by the Chinese TCM society. This something always bothers me. In my conclusion, by relating the eastern information and western modern science, I would like to think that the acupoints are laid exactly on the nerves. For that said, the acupoints are part of the nerves in the nervous system.

A pain in the body was activated by nerve sensor of the sympathetic system. By sticking a needle in the nerve sensor of the parasympathetic system will deactivate the pain. The sequence of event, whichever comes first, may be vice versa between the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems.

[liminal_luke]

15 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

That is a good question, but mental health was my area of focus in school. So to answer your question, this is a more difficult one to treat and because of the nature of the disease I unfortunately don't get a lot of opportunity to treat it, but with that being said there is a lot that acupuncture and herbs can do for any mental health issue, including Schizophrenia. 

 

Thanks, Maddie.  My partner has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and I'm always on the lookout for alternatives to the standard psychiatric treatment.  He's been to tons of pschiatrists and psychologists and nobody has ever suggested acupuncture but it's been on my mind as a possibility.  I imagine that few schizophrenics show up at TCM offices because, for most, it would involve an expense not covered by insurance and as a group psychotic people are financially challenged.  That and the fact that schizophrenics are not likely to seek out innovative treatment on their own initiative.  

 

I've received acupuncture before and found it to be very relaxing.  If nothing else, I think just relaxing for 30 minutes or so might be a worthwhile therapeutic outcome.  His delusions are very anxiety provoking and I'm not sure if he's ever truly relaxed.  Maybe his delusions wouldn't go away -- at least not in the short term -- but if he had an experience of calm?  Might be just the thing.

Edited December 14, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Thank you! You have given me the answer that I wanted to hear. Your idea was always presented by the Chinese TCM society. This something always bothers me. In my conclusion, by relating the eastern information and western modern science, I would like to think that the acupoints are laid exactly on the nerves. For that said, the acupoints are part of the nerves in the nervous system.

A pain in the body was activated by nerve sensor of the sympathetic system. By sticking a needle in the nerve sensor of the parasympathetic system will deactivate the pain. The sequence of event, whichever comes first, may be vice versa between the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems.

 

Getting the nervous system into parasympathetic is where the effect come from. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks, Maddie.  My partner has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and I'm always on the lookout for alternatives to the standard psychiatric treatment.  He's been to tons of pschiatrists and psychologists and nobody has ever suggested acupuncture but it's been on my mind as a possibility.  I imagine that few schizophrenics show up at TCM offices because, for most, it would involve an expense not covered by insurance and as a group psychotic people are financially challenged.  That and the fact that schizophrenics are not likely to seek out innovative treatment on their own initiative.  

 

I've received acupuncture before and found it to be very relaxing.  If nothing else, I think just relaxing for 30 minutes or so might be a worthwhile therapeutic outcome.  His delusion are very anxiety provoking and I'm not sure if he's ever truly relaxed.  Maybe his delusions wouldn't go away -- at least not in the short term -- but if he had an experience of calm?  Might be just the thing.

 

It's doubtful that TCM could make his disorder go away, but it could defiantly alleviate the symptoms and bring relief.  

[Sanity Check]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks, Maddie.  My partner has been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder and I'm always on the lookout for alternatives to the standard psychiatric treatment. 

 

 

I can't comment on how effective this is but I really like the upbeat and positive way it sounds:

 

Quote

Recent studies have found that physical exercise may be the ideal addition to a typical treatment plan. Along with its known health benefits for all people, aerobic activity has been shown to boost cognitive ability, enhance emotional intelligence, and improve quality of life for people with schizophrenia.

 

How Exercise and Schizophrenia Fit Together

Psychiatric conditions like schizophrenia not only affect your mental well-being, but they can impair cognitive abilities like memory, problem solving and social skills. While antipsychotic medications help manage the delusions and hallucinations that come with schizophrenia, physical exercise appears to provide a special boost to the brain.

One study looked at the cognitive improvement of schizophrenic participants who did neurocognitive and social cognitive training compared to the results from participants who did the same brain training but also added aerobic exercise. The exercisers showed a significant improvement in symptoms over the participants who only focused on the brain.

The secret is a protein called brain-derived neurotropic growth factor (BDNF). This protein is released during aerobic activity and stimulates the hippocampus, where we store long-term memories and learning. Researchers found BDNF increased by 35% in groups that did the cognitive training along with physical exercise. The group that only did cognitive training had no increase in BDNF.

Experts also discovered that exercise treatment is particularly effective in the early stages of the disease, such as after someone’s first psychotic breakdown. The earlier you start exercising as part of your treatment plan, the longer the effects will last.

 

https://www.healthgrades.com/right-care/schizophrenia/how-exercise-can-ease-schizophrenia-symptoms

 

[ChiDragon]

@Maddie
One more question. From throwing knives, it caused a pain on my the right side of my neck for two years. I was carrying a backpack climbing the Great Wall of China. When I have gone up to the top, my neck was painful like hell. I promised myself, when I get home, to get a book on acupuncture to kill this miserable pain. Indeed, I bought this book I had mentioned above and got rid of the pain in 5 minutes. In many cases, I had found the reflecting points to get rid of many pains at different spots on my body.

Just for amusement, how would you go about curing my neck pain of the right side? 

Edited December 14, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

Just now, ChiDragon said:

One more question. From throwing knives, it caused a pain on my the right side of my neck for two years. I was carrying a backpack climbing the Great Wall of China. When I have gone up to the top, my neck was painful like hell. I promised myself, when I get home, to get a book on acupuncture to kill this miserable pain. Indeed, I bought this book I had mentioned above and got rid of the pain in 5 minutes. In many cases, I had found the reflecting points to get rid of many pains at different spots on my body.

Just for amusement, how would you go about curing my neck pain of the right side? 

 

Difficult to say for sure without having seen you in person and evaluated you, but I do see this sort of thing all day everyday. 

[Sanity Check]

56 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Because the meridians are not supernatural, but very natural lol. 

 

 

Natural is a great answer. 

 

But, if you had to define what qi and meridians are in scientific materialist terms.

 

What are they?