Trying to understand this as I’m not an Abrahamic…

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

11 hours ago, Daniel said:

see that the Quran is not as harsh

I dont doubt that for a second

[Vajra Mind]

Hi Daniel,  

 

I am going to reply to some of your misunderstanding of my personal comments. But I am not going to reply to All your misunderstanding of Quran. 

 

1) I have used translation from this link which I have already posted. When I say dishonest translation I am referring to this site not to you or your star Dr. Shahenaz.

On 1/3/2024 at 9:43 AM, Vajra Mind said:

https://quran.com/2?startingVerse=106

 

2) You posted a verse where the word "Sodoor" was translated into "Breasts" according Dr Shahenaz. I corrected that for you and told you not to worry because I will give the right translation as required. The word means "Chests" and It is actually referring to the HEARTS which hold the faith "Fe Sodoor" which is "in the chests". There is no Hearts in Breasts. Did I get a thank you? No 

 

3) Maybe you got upset because I said you cherry pick ?  But that is the truth Daniel, you were cherry picking then imputing personal interpretations and ignoring the (((vast majority of relevant verses))). What do you call that? 

 

4) When I said I pulled "most relevant verses" which are the majority. This is not cherry picking it answers all the questions you asked about (hate or disbelief) in consistent manner without rejecting some and taking some without context or understanding of the whole context in Quran. 

 

5) Please read my post with all the verses to get the right context. 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6) accuses everyone of bias but never admits to being wrong

7) triggered by Buddha 

[Vajra Mind]

I have checked the website you use for translation

https://www.islamawakened.com/

 

I will reply on every cherry picked verses you used using this website you have chosen, over the coming days.  

 

But please please please please do not hide behind excuses that your understanding is different than mine, or that 1400 years of muslims none of them understood Quran but you Daniel. It is very immature behaviour.  

 

[Vajra Mind]

15 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

6) accuses everyone of bias but never admits to being wrong

7) triggered by Buddha 

 

Yes, it is mind blowing because it does not make any sense to think that 1400 years of Arab muslims misunderstood Quran, but one Jewish man who cherry pick few verses out of hundreds more relevant verses understand better !!

 

But I think he has got a good intention, there are some people (from muslim and Jewish sides) working on easing the tensions between these 2 religions. I hope it works but I am pessimistic.  

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

I agree, i genuinley belives he has a good hearth, but constantly being told to educate yourself and being in complete denial on certain topics, does Get frustating 

[Dainin]

21 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thats the point, two very intolerant religions

 

If you don't think Christianity is intolerant please take a moment to consider the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Transatlantic slave trade, burning of "witches", genocide of indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia, Holocaust, etc., etc.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

27 minutes ago, Dainin said:

 

If you don't think Christianity is intolerant please take a moment to consider the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Transatlantic slave trade, burning of "witches", genocide of indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia, Holocaust, etc., etc.

I do not belive the teachings of christ are violent, on the contrary acctually. Human history is bloody no doubt, but Jesus… a really chill fellow

[Dainin]

27 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I do not belive the teachings of christ are violent, on the contrary acctually. Human history is bloody no doubt, but Jesus… a really chill fellow

 

Many of the perpetrators of those atrocities claimed to be followers of Christ's teachings and many believed they were acting on his behalf. If you think he is peaceful and tolerant, read the Book of Revelation.

 

There are some Christian groups who are tolerant and peaceful, for example Quakers, Hutterites, etc. The majority are not. What is the point of peaceful teachings when the actions of the followers of these teachings are extremely hateful and violent, not just to non-believers but also between different denominations of Christianity?

[Sketch]

2 minutes ago, Dainin said:

What is the point of peaceful teachings when the actions of the followers of these teachings are extremely hateful and violent, not just to non-believers but also between different denominations of Christianity?

The ability to play the eternal victim, to say 'now look what you made me do" to the horrors of history.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 minute ago, Dainin said:

 

Many of the perpetrators of those atrocities claimed to be followers of Christ's teachings and many believed they were acting on his behalf. If you think he is peaceful and tolerant, read the Book of Revelation.

 

There are some Christian groups who are tolerant and peaceful, for example Quakers, Hutterites, etc. The majority are not. What is the point of peaceful teachings when the actions of the followers of these teachings are extremely hateful and violent, not just to non-believers but also between different denominations of Christianity?

Listen, point is, that yes violence is undeniable. So is the evils commited by the church. But trying to compare the message of christ to that of the torah or Muhammed, is dishonest to the point of being funny. Humans are capable of evil, no doubt. Christians as, of course. Jews and muslims can be 100% cool and chill, but the values of the faith are pretty much total opposites of that of christ.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Dainin said:

… Christianity … Holocaust …

 

Then there’s also ‘the Rape of Nanjing ’, sometimes called ‘the other holocaust of WWII’. Do you also blame this massacre  

on Shinto?

 

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited January 7 by Cobie

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Dainin said:

 

Many of the perpetrators of those atrocities claimed to be followers of Christ's teachings and many believed they were acting on his behalf. If you think he is peaceful and tolerant, read the Book of Revelation.

 

In my view, the Book of Revelation, like some other Apocalyptic literature, should be metaphorically interpreted. It tells the story of a conflict between divine truth and satanic deception, and vividly illustrates the consequences of following either one or the other. This isn't to say that it may not at the same time reflect real events, but in doing so, it wouldn't necessarily be referring to the historical Jesus of Nazareth.

 

That being said, regarding the role the character of Jesus does play in the narrative, it's interesting to note that this is actually quite open to interpretation and the subject of an ongoing debate. For a careful reading reveals that the author uses traditional symbols in an unexpected manner that subtly, but significantly changes their meaning.

 

See for instance:

 

Quote

The irony is that, while

 Revelation 19 is frequently appealed to as the clearest example of Jesus engaging in literal violence, in reality it does not depict a single violent act.

John utilizes traditional warfare imagery to imaginatively express this final battle between truth and deception, but, as usual, he completely transforms this imagery in the process. To cite one example, John applies to Jesus Isaiah’s macabre vision of Yahweh as a warrior wearing robes that are covered with blood (Isa 63:1-3; Rev. 19:13). In Isaiah’s vision, however, Yahweh is stained with the blood of his enemies whom he has trampled like grapes in a winepress in his “day of vengeance.” By contrast, Jesus’ robes are blood stained before he goes into battle, and the stains are from his own spilled blood as well as the blood of his martyred servants. It represents, once again, that Christ and his followers win by having their own blood shed rather than by shedding the blood of others.

Also in keeping with traditional apocalyptic symbolism, John depicts Christ wielding a “sharp sword” to “strike down the nations” (19:15). But it is extremely important to notice that the sword that Jesus wields comes out of his mouth (Rev. 19:15, 21; cf. 1:16; 2:26; 3:26). His weapon, clearly, is nothing other than the truth he speaks, which is why the title he rides into battle with is “Faithful and True” (19:11).

Finally, a word should be said about John’s lurid depiction of Jesus on a white horse “treading on the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty” (19:15). This is not John’s first use of this winepress imagery. The “great winepress of God’s wrath” is first mentioned in chapter 14 (vv. 19-20), and in this context John has significantly nuanced the details of the traditional imagery (See Is 63). While the traditional imagery depicts sinners being crushed like grapes because of their wickedness, John here depicts grapes being crushed simply because they are ready to be harvested (vv. 15,18). Moreover, while the traditional imagery identifies God’s judgment with the crushing of wicked grapes, John identifies God’s judgment with people drinking the wine that is formed from ripened crushed grapes (v.10). The crushed grapes express the wrath of God not because they are crushed, but because they form “the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath” (14:10; cf. 14: 8-9; 16:6; 17:6). God’s wrath is thus directed not toward the grapes, as it is in the traditional use of this imagery, but toward the unrepentant who are made to drink the wine that is a by-product of these grapes being crushed.

When we put this together with John’s pervasive theme that believers overcome by their willingness to be martyred, it suggests that the blood that flows from the winepress of God’s fury is not the blood of God’s enemies, but the blood of his servants whom these enemies murdered.

 

https://reknew.org/2016/05/final-battle-revelation/

Edited January 4 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Lol.  Nazi?  You just lost the argument.

 

Sacrifice his child?  You clearly didn't read the story carefully.

 

The tax?  Have you read about it?  Of course not.  

 

 

I'll just leave this here for you and the others to reflect on for the purpose of determing how much credibility to grant to your posts here:

 

 

So, you don't know what's in the Torah or Tanach, but you believe the negative stories about it?  Got it.

 

And you refuse to educate yourself on it?  Got it.

 

And you have no problem judging it, knowiing, and admitting you don't know what's in it.

 

That ^^ is what's wrong with the world, dude.  People pretending they KNOW things... Gratefully those with power and influence operate from a more fact-based point-of-view.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....    '  I'll just leave this here for you and the others to reflect on for the purpose of determing how much credibility to grant to your posts here: '

 

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

..... You just lost the argument .....

 

 

 

But you are not the arbitrator here  , are you ? 

 

In case YOU didnt notice Daniel  you have lost your credibility here  a fair while back .

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

6) accuses everyone of bias but never admits to being wrong

7) triggered by Buddha 

 

Well of course someone like Daniel will get triggered by Buddha .

 

 

 

I used to when I was a smart young egotistical man that knew everything .

 

Turns out Buddha was right about a lot of stuff though  .... surprise  surprise , is was ME and not him after all .

 

I even used to think the world was a Garden of Eden ... until I 'climbed the wall' and got out into the 'real world' . But some cant handle that .... they 'take their garden with them'  ... but that requires a lot of  'evasive opinion / personal  philosophy' to maintain . 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Dainin said:

 

If you don't think Christianity is intolerant please take a moment to consider the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Transatlantic slave trade, burning of "witches", genocide of indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia, Holocaust, etc., etc.

 

Indeed , we need to extend the ' intolerant' tag   over the whole Abrahamic Tradition .

 

before the 'progression' of Abrahamic religions    Zoroastrianism was  a major religion , it was egalitarian,  progressive  and  tolerant , especially of others religions, and often supported them and helped them to advance , especially with Judaism .

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

I think he has got a good intention

 

Thank you.

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

am referring to this site not to you or your star Dr. Shahenaz.

 

My star?

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

Did I get a thank you [ for correcting the mistranslation of Sodoor ]? No 

 

You didn't get a thank you, because, it was irrelevant.

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

Maybe you got upset because I said you cherry pick

 

I didn't get upset, I was surprised by the hypocrisy.  I was certainly frustrated with the other individual who refuses to read the text and yet is judging it in ignorance.  There is no way to have an intelligent conversation with someone who will not *actually* read the text.  I assure you; I will no longer be distracted by this.

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

you were cherry picking then imputing personal interpretations and ignoring the (((vast majority of relevant verses))). What do you call that? 

 

The only so-called "imputation" that was identified was regarding the timeless, eternal quality of the Torah.  I brought an example from Hadith showing it is not MY personal interpretation.  It is shared by the Hadith.  There's also ayat in the Quran which confirm this.

 

Please.  What I'm doing is not cherry-picking.  It's the beginning of the discussion.  It needs to start somewhere. 

 

I brought the ayat which support my assertion.  The next step is to confirm that the translation chosen is accurate.  The reason this is the next step, is, if the translation is faulty, obviously, my conclusions will also be faulty.  If that's the case, I will apologize, and reassess based on a proper translation. 

 

Dr. Shenaz is not my "star".  You're being condescending.  There's no need for that.  That specific translation is so far, a very good choice.  It is not softening the translation by omitting the "curses"

 

Once the translation is confirmed, then, I think the next step is to evaluate the intention and purpose behind the ayat I brought.  This is because I am not denying the verses you have brought.  To the contrary, it seems that It the verses I brought are being denied.  At the very least, it seems as if what I have brought is being ignored or deemed insignificant, is that an accurate description?  Insignificant?

 

Does Islam consider ANY of what is written in the Quran insignificant?  Can it be said that any of the words are insignificant?

 

When the word:  "إِنَّ - Indeed" is included, is that insignificant?

 

When the phrase: "إِلَّا قَلِیلࣰا مِّنۡهُمۡۖ - except a few of them" is included, is that insignificant?

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

But I am not going to reply to All your misunderstanding of Quran. 

 

I appreciate the opportunity to learn together.   

 

11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

it answers all the questions you asked about (hate or disbelief) in consistent manner without rejecting some

 

It seems like you are rejecting... 

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

But please please please please do not hide behind excuses that your understanding is different than mine

 

I didn't do that.  However, the question is about what the Quran is teaching.  What is it that is *actually* written in the Quran?  

 

10 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

1400 years of muslims none of them understood Quran but you Daniel.

 

I didn't say that, nor have I implied it.  

 

Edited January 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

one Jewish man who cherry pick few verses out of hundreds more relevant verses understand better !!

 

Please see below:

 

Quote

look forward to see your quotes and responding to them accordingly. 

 

What you're doing, in america, is called a bait-and-switch.  You wrote that you look forward to the quotes I would bring, then, when I bring them, you've become hostile and condscending, rather harshly accusing me of cherry picking and taking them out of context.

Edited January 5 by Daniel

[Vajra Mind]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

What you're doing, in america, is called a bait-and-switch.  You wrote that you look forward to the quotes I would bring, then, when I bring them, you've become hostile and condscending, rather harshly accusing me of cherry picking and taking them out of context.

 

Okey Daniel. I apologize to you if I have been hostile and condescending, that was not my intention. 

 

But, I can not apologize for saying you cherry pick and impute your own understanding/personal interpretations in the verses because I would be deceiving you, myself and everyone reading and thats morally wrong.  

 

And yes we can learn together. But this can not work, if you can not keep doing confirmation bias taking only what apparently confirm your hypothesis and ignoring the rest. That is why I put most verses pertaining to people of the book/Jews so we have the whole CONTEXT, in doing so we avoid biases and fallacies in making conclusions. 

 

As I said in my last post. I am going to use your website for translation and reply to each verse you put over the coming days.

 

Again I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. I hope you accept my apology. 

[Vajra Mind]

Quran 29:46 

And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit."

 

Quran 29:47 

And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.

 

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

The important details here are what I wrote previously:  The book revealed to the jewish people, the Torah, brings the same message, the same teachings as in the Quran.  That is why:  "None [of them, the people of the book] reject the verses of the Quran unless they are disbelievers.  They ( we, me ) have a revelation which matches one-to-one with the Quran.  This should be simple for them ( us, me ).  Also, we worship the same god.  This is the core of what Muhammad is preaching to jewish people in the Quran.  This is not the only place this is written, I'll bring another example in a moment.

 

 

You said

same message. 

matches one-to-one with the Quran. 

 

Quran acknowledges Moses, Jesus and John the Baptists (Prophet Yahya) as prophets and messengers. It acknowledge Judaism, Christianity and Sabians as well as their books Torah, Gospel and the Book of John. They came from the same one God. 

This is common ground that every muslim know that, thats why they are called Abrahamic religions. But the devils is in the details AKA the context, the rest of the verses which clarifies what are these revelation. 

 

What are those revelation that the Quran is referring to? Is it what You (Daniel) assume the same one to one OR is it something else reveled and explained in the Quran itself so that we know ALL/Whole revelation NOT SOME COMMON GROUND: 

 

To answer this question let us look again at verses from my previous posts that are mentioning what are those revelations and who is hiding them and how are they been ignored according to Quran itself. 

 

7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the unlettered, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

 

Mohammed is reveled in the Torah according to Quran. Do Jews agree ?

Mohammed relives from them their burden and the fetter which were upon them. What are these burden that Mohammed relieved?

How do you believe in him, honor him and help him and follow the light sent down with him? Are Jews doing that?

 

Does Torah and Quran matches one-to one ?

 

3:45 When said the Angels, "O Maryam! Indeed, Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, his name (is) the Messiah, Isa, son (of) Maryam, honored in the world and (in) the Hereafter, and of those brought near (to Allah).

3:49 And (make him) a Messenger to (the) Children (of) Israel,

3:50 And confirming that which between hands of the Taurat, and so that I make lawful for you some (of) that which was forbidden to you

 

So Gospel also confirms the Torah, but there are amendments/extra revelations. 

Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet, messenger and messiah who came to Jews with his Gospel. 

 

Does Torah and Quran matches one-to-one? 

 

5:46 And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

5:47 And let judge (the) People (of) the Injeel by what has revealed Allah in it. And whoever (does) not judge by what revealed Allah then those [they] (are) the defiantly disobedient.

 

Quran is saying the Gospel (Injeel) also confirms the Torah 

YET Jesus followers must apply what the Gospel revealed according to them. So both Torah and Gospel are VALID??

 

Does Torah and Quran matches one-one?

 

5:12 And certainly took Allah a Covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel and We appointed among them two (and) ten (i.e twelve) leaders. And said Allah, "Indeed, I (am) with you, if you establish the prayer and give the zakah and you believe in My Messengers and you assist them and you loan (to) Allah a loan goodly, surely I will remove from you your evil deeds and I will surely admit you (to) gardens flow from underneath them the rivers. But whoever disbelieved after that among you, then certainly he strayed (from) the way, the right.

 

To keep Allah covenant and the right way to believe in my Messengers and assist them? Is Mohammed included or just Jewish Messengers?   

 

5:13 o for their breaking (of) their covenant We cursed them and We made their hearts hard. They distort the words from their places, and forgot a part of what they were reminded of [it]. And not you will cease to discover of treachery from them except a few of them. But forgive them and overlook. Indeed, Allah loves the good-doers.

5:14 And from those who said, Indeed we (are) Christians," We took their covenant; but they forgot a part of what they were reminded of [it]. So We aroused between them [the] enmity and [the] hatred till (the) Day (of) the Resurrection. And soon will inform them Allah of what they used to do.

 

OH DEAR, so both Jews and Christians have elements of their books corrupted and lost according to 5:12-13

 

Houston we got a problem. Now how to fix it? What is the complete and most accurate revelation ??

 

5:15 O People (of) the Book! Surely has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking of much. Surely has come to you from Allah a light and a Book clear

 

Thank you Allah and prophet Mohammed for fixing Torah and Injeel. What else you got prophet of Allah?

 

2:145 And even if you come (to) those who were given the Book with all (the) signs, not they would follow your direction of prayer, and not (will) you (be) a follower (of) their direction of prayer. And not some of them (are) followers (of the) direction of prayer (of each) other. And if you followed their desires from after [what] came to you of the knowledge, indeed, you (would) then (be) surely among the wrongdoers.

 

So disbelieves Jews wont pray to Mecca or follow you. 

 

Does Torah and Quran is one-to-one match still ?

 

Lets break the previous verses again:

Quran 29:47 

So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. 

Yes this is given in PAST TENSE referring to ancients Jews before Mohammed. 

And among these (are some) who believe therein

This needs a bit of Arabic perspective 

This is PRESENT TENSE referring to People witnessed by Mohammed and His followers in his time. 

"these" هؤلاء is ism ishara meaning a pointer word in present sense هذا هذه هؤلاء

Among them some who believe. These are some Jewish converts like Abdulla Bin Salam. 

And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers.

These are the rest of you Jews who did not follow Mohammed and disbelieved him.

 

Now Daniel please read carefully and be patient. As I cover the rest of the verses over the coming days. 

[Vajra Mind]

3 hours ago, Vajra Mind said:

OH DEAR, so both Jews and Christians have elements of their books corrupted and lost according to 5:12-13

My apologies it should be 5:13-14

 

 

[Vajra Mind]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

Regarding context, the intention of these verses, as I have described them is consistent starting in the previous surah 28, and, it continues consistently through surah 29.  Surah 28 retells the story of moses (Musa) in egypt.  It's a story which is well known to virtually all jewish people.  We learn this story multiple times each year.  I have now read it approx. a hundred times.  It begins:

 

28:1  Ta Seem Meem.
28:2  These (are the) Verses (of) the Book the clear.
28:3  We recite to you from (the) news (of) Musa and Firaun in truth for a people who believe.
28:4  Indeed, Firaun exalted himself in the land and made its people (into) sects, oppressing a group among them, slaughtering their sons and letting live their women. Indeed, he was of the corrupters.
28:5  And We wanted to bestow a favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them the inheritors,
28:6  And [We] establish them in the land and show Firaun and Haman and their hosts through them what they were fearing.

 

Notice:  Allah desires to bestow favor on the jewish people.  They are to be leaders, inheritors, and they are to be established in the land.  That's in support of the jewish people.  Yes, it's true we, the jewish people, are often rebuked in the Quran.  But we are also supported when we do the right thing.  It's no different than the hebrew prophets who rebuke us, but their rebuke is harsher.

 

For example In 28, the story of the burning bush is briefly mentioned.  In this story Moses is given signs to prove that he had indeed had a revelation with the god of of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.  Water was turnned to blood, the famous staff-of-moses was turned to a serpent, moses' hand turns white.  Moses was also given other signs in the Torah, but, these are omitted.  In the Quran's version, the people did not believe the signs brought by Moses:

 

28:36 But when came to them Musa with Our Signs clear, they said, "Not (is) this except a magic invented, and not we heard of this among our forefathers (of) the former (people)."

 

This is not entirely different from the story told in the Torah.  The details differ, but, the jewish people did struggle with belief repeatedly even though they were witnessing miracles.  However, in the Torah, the rebuke is much harsher, God desires to destroy them all and start over.  That's much different than what the Quran is teaching. 

 

In these verses Quran is telling the story of Moses and his faithful followers in ancient time and how they were saved from Firaun or Pharaoh. There is no dispute in Quran or among Muslims about Moses or his faithful followers or miracles. 

 

Then you are saying Jewish scripture is harsher. These verses does not seems relevant to harshness, but to make a fair comparison of harshness we can make a table of Quran verses such as: 

 

All the curses

All killing of prophets 

Reducing to Apes and Pigs

Number of times Wrath of Allah been upon Jews

 

I cover the Quran and you cover the Jewish scriptures and we assess them in quantitative way and qualitative way. Then we can decide which one is more harsh?  

 

PLEASE do not take what I said as condescending or something else, this is academic I am serious it would be very interesting. 

 

Maybe we need to decide if we want to include other punishment not relevant to Jews such as this:

5:33 Only (the) recompense (for) those who wage war (against) Allah and His Messenger and strive in the earth spreading corruption (is) that they be killed or they be crucified or be cut off their hands and their feet of opposite sides or they be exiled from the land. That (is) for them disgrace in the world and for them in the Hereafter (is) a punishment great.

 

 

[Vajra Mind]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said:

After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd.

 

وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣

 

28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember.

 

This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) .  Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time.

 

Yes, Indeed no dispute that Allah is describing his older book (Torah) as enlightenment to mankind and guidance and mercy. 

Yes may remember or or recollect or reflect on it or contemplate on it. 

 

But

 

1. the same description was given to the Gospel of Jesus as I mentioned in my post 

 

5:46 And We sent on their footsteps Isa, son (of) Maryam, confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat, and We gave him the Injeel, in it (was) Guidance and light and confirming what (was) between his hands of the Taurat and a Guidance and an admonition for the God conscious.

 

2. Both were corrupt and lost verses 5:13-14. 

 

3. Quran has supreme authority, complete and last revelation  5:48-49. 

 

4. There is No timeless revelation mentioned in this verse nor the other verses you gave references too: 

 

12:38 And I follow (the) religion (of) my forefathers, Ibrahim, and Ishaq and Yaqub. Not was for us that we associate with Allah any thing. That (is) from (the) Grace (of) Allah upon us, and upon the mankind but most (of) the men (are) not grateful.

 

22:25 Indeed, those who disbelieved and hinder from (the) way (of) Allah and Al-Masjid Al-Haraam, which We made it for the mankind, equal, (are) the resident therein and the visitor; and whoever intends therein of deviation (or) wrongdoing, We will make him taste of a punishment painful.

 

Also the Word NAS just means people. If you are not convinced here is the same word but adding ALL before it: 

 

34:28 And not We have sent you except to all mankind (as) a giver of glad tidings and (as) a warner. But most [the] people (do) not know.

 

All People/mankind 

 

I think this much clearer now.