Vajra Mind Posted January 5 On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said: Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source. This is a recurring theme in the Quran. It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. Surah 29 begins: 29:1 Alif Laam Meem. 29:2 Do think the people that they will be left because they say, "We believe" and they not will be tested? 29:3 And indeed, We tested those who (were) from before them. And will surely make evident Allah those who (are) truthful and He will surely make evident the liars. The Quran is reminding the jewish people that Allah, God, is testing them **just like the jewish people were tested before**. This is no different. The clear signs were given to Moses, and the jewish people disbelieved. The Quran, interestingly, is moving backwards in the story. Starting with the exodus story which is generally considered by jewish people to be a private revelation, but, the Quran also gently reminds that the revelation of the clear signs also happened to Pharaoh and the egyptians ( 28:3 ). Here the Quran goes back to the story of Noah where the whole world would have been witness to the clear signs of the great flood. Also, the story of Abraham, which is also a universalist story. The Quran does not detail this, but, for those who are familiar with Torah, the God of Abraham was revealing itself to the whole world through Abraham, it was not limited to the jewish people. By going backwards in time, each prior revelation is more and more general including more and more people who are not jewish. This is deconstructing tribalism. These general verses pertaining to all people not jews only that Allah created people to test them. Then you mentioned (38:3) story of Pharaoh and Egyptians. Before Abraham there was Noah and other prophets to other people. Okey.... ?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 5 On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said: All of this is 100% consistent with the conclusion brought in 29:46-47, "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." Surah 29 continues... Jacob and Esau are invoked. Lot is invoked. There are a few others listed which, in theory, would be good for me to research... but eventually we come to 46-47 ( I'll list them again ). And the following verses confirm it as well. 29:46 And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit." 29:47 And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers. 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers. 29:49 Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers. Here the Quran is preaching: "Didn't you scribe the book with your own hands?" This is pointing to the jewish scribal custom where we write the Torah very carefully, pronouncing each word, then writing it. "If you write it, and you know it, your own book, you MUST accept what is in this book too. It is the same message." What follows immediately after this is a brief interlude where the Muslim is speaking to the jewish person. The jewish person challenges, and the Quran tells the Muslim how to respond. The Surah ends encouraging the Muslim that those who disbelieve in spite of all this will be punished. They, the Muslim, does not need to take any actions against the disbelieving jewish person. I am sorry Daniel, I am forced to say you put many sentences with personal interpretations from misunderstanding already covered in earlier post. NOTE to the readers this verse "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." is NOT a Quran verse, it is just Daniels own words according to what he understood. So do not be confused. Verses 29:46-47 have been already explained. Verse 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers. You said this is a Jewish scribal customs BUT This is completely out of context Daniel, the verse is directed to Mohammed as he did not write or read, has he been doing that then people would suspect (doubted) that he has knew the scriptures by learning. It is much clearer in Arabic context. Verse 29:49 Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers. Again Breasts is wrong it is Chests in reference to the HEARTS. Again it refers to the believers of Mohammed not the one who rejected his revelation as explained in many previous verses in my posts. Not only Quran mentions argument but also Jews and Christians who rejected Mohammed revelations and did not convert are allowed to live under Islam as long as they pay Jizya and they are fully humbled. This does not exclude that they are disbelievers and polytheists and to be punished according to many verses already posted describing them. 9:29 Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what has made unlawful Allah and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the reparation (from) willingly, while they (are) subdued. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 5 On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said: The other example I had in mind when writing my reply is in Surah 2. Critics of the Quran whom I have conversed with point to Surah 2 as an example of anti-jewish hatred, but they ignore the moderating verses. Here's an example: 2:79 So woe to those who write the book with their (own) hands then, they say, "This (is) from Allah," to barter with it (for) a price little. So woe to them for what have written their hands and woe to them for what they earn. 2:80 And they say, "Never will touch us the Fire except (for) days numbered." Say, "Have you taken from Allah a covenant, so never will break Allah His Covenant? Or (do) you say against Allah what not you know?" 2:81 Yes, whoever earned evil and surrounded him with his sins - [so] those (are the) companions (of) the Fire; they in it (will) abide forever. 2:82 And those who believed and did righteous deeds, those (are the) companions (of) Paradise; they in it (will) abide forever. 2:83 And when We took (the) covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel, "Not you will worship except Allah, and with [the] parents (be) good and (with) relatives and [the] orphans and the needy, and speak to [the] people good, and establish the prayer and give the zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you (were) refusing Wrong assumption Daniel about Anti-Jewish hatred. I will say this again Anti-Jewish hatred stems from the basis that Jews disbelieved and did not follow Mohammed instead they followed their Rabbis and defective scriptures as stated in many many verses before. Therefore they are either disbelievers and worse polytheists. In rejecting Mohammed, the Quran resembles them to the wrong dowers and disbelievers and killers of the prophets at the time of Jesus and all the way to the time of Moses. That is the "context you are missing", That is why it is important to read all the verses not just some and definitely not only the one that pertain to believers (moderate) who did not reject prophets and believed in all revelations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 5 On 12/26/2023 at 5:24 AM, Daniel said: 2 important details are above. First, here is an excellent example of what I referred to earlier regarding covenants. The Quran greatly discourages breaking covenants, commitments, and treaties. This is one of the problems the Quran is coming to solve among the jewish people and others. "Don't break your covenants, contracts, and agreements, especially with Allah/God". Those who disbelieve ALWAYS are breaking their covenants. They do not believe in a day of judgement. ( Surah 8, specifically ayah 56 ). Second, and most important, please notice, those jewish people who believed and did righteous deeds, past tense, before the the Quran was ever revealed, will "abide forever" in paradise. This proves that the message of the Quran is identical to what was previously revealed. The quran asserts this itself in other places. ( 42:52 ). It's true, the Torah and judaism is complicated and a bit twisted. I love it, and I think it has a lot of value. Clearly the Quran is teaching that what was revealed prior to the Quran warrants great and eternal reward. The message MUST be the same else, there is a different reward? That's tribalism. That's not Isalm. That's not what the Quran is teaching. Here's another example from Surah 3. The Quran has been preaching rather harshly about the jewish people, but, it is careful to moderate it. 3:108 These (are the) Verses (of) Allah. We recite them to you in truth. And not Allah wants injustice to the worlds. 3:109 And to Allah (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And to Allah will be returned the matters. 3:110 You are (the) best (of) people raised for the mankind - enjoining the right and forbidding [from] the wrong and believing in Allah. And if believed (the) People (of) the Book surely would have been good for them. Among them (are) [the] believers, but most of them (are) defiantly disobedient. 108 begins by reminding the reader that Allah/God does not want injustice and is the owner/possessor of all that exists. Then, it does proclaim that the Muslim, the one who submits to Allah/God is the best of the world. That can be objectionable to the non-Muslim, but, for the context of this discussion, it's important to note, the Quran reminds the reader that the jewish people have potential. 3:111 Never will they harm you except a hurt. And if they fight you, they will turn (towards) you the backs, then not they will be helped. 3:112 Struck on them the humiliation wherever that they are found except with a rope from Allah and a rope from the people. And they incurred wrath from Allah and struck on them the poverty. That (is) because they used to disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah and they killed the Prophets without right. That (is) because they disobeyed and they used to transgress. This is an interesting passage if one considers what i means if jewish people are NOT turning their backs and are consistently winning military conflicts. 3:113 They are not (the) same; among (the) People (of) the Book (is) a community standing (and) reciting (the) Verses (of) Allah (in the) hours (of) the night and they prostrate. 3:114 They believe in Allah and the Day the Last and they enjoin [with] the right and forbid [from] the wrong and they hasten in the good deeds. And those (are) from the righteous. 3:115 And whatever they do of a good, then never will they be denied it. And Allah (is) All-Knowing of the God-fearing. 3:116 Indeed, those who disbelieved, never will avail [for] them their wealth and not their children against Allah anything, and those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever. We are not all the same. This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier. If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true. They, we, me, are not all the same. It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing. Yes. That is how we pray. We are standing. Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah. That is the majority of our prayer ritual. We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran. We do believe in Allah and the Last Day. We do what is right. We forbid what is wrong. We rush to do good deeds. Per the Quran, this will never be denied. Again Daniel sorry, this same exact answer from my previous posts Jews disbelieved and did not follow Mohammed instead they followed their Rabbis and defective scriptures as stated in many many verses before. Therefore they are either disbelievers or worse polytheists. In rejecting Mohammed, the Quran resembles them to the wrong dowers and disbelievers and killers of the prophets at the time of Jesus and all the way to the time of Moses. That is the "context you are missing", That is why it is important to read all the verses not just some and definitely not only the one that pertain to believers (moderate) who did not reject prophets and believed in all revelations. To make it overly simple if you follow Mohammed all the good stuff will be yours. If you dont then pay Jizya humbly and will be punished in the hereafter (after death). This Sunni and Shia beliefs go ask all the prominent Islamic scholars since 1400 years till today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 5 You are doing a great job, @Vajra Mind. It i not often you see these topics discussed openly by people with understanding of the faith. I belive that the lack of open discussion is a way bigger danger then any text or religion itself. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 5 Just now, NaturaNaturans said: You are doing a great job, @Vajra Mind. It i not often you see these topics discussed openly by people with understanding of the faith. I belive that the lack of open discussion is a way bigger danger then any text or religion itself. Thank you so much NaturaNaturans. I really appreciate it. I have 3 scientific papers I must publish while trying to make these replies. It is a bit tiring. I will call the day and look at the rest of his posts later. We may go to the Hadith later. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 5 9 hours ago, Vajra Mind said: Okey Daniel. I apologize to you if I have been hostile and condescending, that was not my intention. It's ok. Quote But, I can not apologize for saying you cherry pick and impute your own understanding/personal interpretations in the verses because I would be deceiving you, myself and everyone reading and thats morally wrong. Maybe let's simply discuss what's written and not make negative accusations about the methods used to select the verses which are being discussed. It is not my intention to distort, misrepresent, ignore, any of what is written in the Quran for the purpose of this discussion. The accusation of cherry-picking is an insult. As I wrote previously, the conversation needs to start somewhere. So, I brought the verses which were the focus of my assertion. They're examples of what I was referring to; that's not cherry-picking. From the perspective of morality, I appreciate the honesty. However I do not think you're being fair with your criticism. Are you able to see how your own responses can also be considered cherry-picking ( if one adopts an overly hostile posture )? "The jews are cursed nine times" could be considered cherry-picking those verses by those same standards. From my perspective, neither are cherry-picking. They're examples. Examples are not cherry-picking. I prefer to withold the negative judgements until after an individual has demonstrated the fault. Hopefully you'll recall this was my approach in our conversation earlier in the thread. Quote And yes we can learn together. But this can not work, if you can not keep doing confirmation bias taking only what apparently confirm your hypothesis and ignoring the rest. Maybe wait until I make that mistake before offering the correction? Confirmation bias means that I am ignoring any and all examples which offset, over-rule, or undermine my conclusions. I object to that primarily because it's too early in our discussion to conclude that I am ignoring anything. My postition, among others, is: I acknowledge there are many verses ( many-many verses ) in the Quran which are harshly rebuking the jewish people, however, there are also moderating verses. If I acknowledge the many harsh rebukes, then, I am not ignoring them. Similar to the accusation of cherry-picking, are you able to see that what you've written could also be considered confirmation bias ( if one adopts an overly hostile posture )? For example: the assertion that the earlier verse 3:12 abrogates the later verse 5:69 could be considered confirmation bias ( if one adopts an overly hostile posture ). Yes, I checked, to the best of my ability, the chronology of the revelation of the Quran to confirm that surah 3 precedes surah 5. Why assume that the moderate verses are abrogated? Isn't that an example of confirmation bias ( if one adopts an overly hostile posture )? Quote That is why I put most verses pertaining to people of the book/Jews so we have the whole CONTEXT, in doing so we avoid biases and fallacies in making conclusions. I think there may be another language barrier here? Here is an example of context. In context, Surah 28 is a retelling of the exodus story. <--- That is an example of how to describe the context of Surah 28. What do you mean by "the whole context"? Typing it out explicitly would be very helpful for me. As I requested earlier, if I am missing context, please add it? That means, "Please type out a description of the context." It feels like you are saying: "You're wrong! Context!" But this is simply a debate tactic lacking substance. Simply invoking the word "context" is not helpful. I included the exclamation marks, "You're wrong!", because of the bold font. Regarding bias, I fully accept and admit that I have an optimistic, friendly bias towards the Quran, Islam, and the "Abrahamic" faiths. I want all of us to get along. I want all of us to be friends. I want each of us to appreciate and value the distinctions, the differences, and value the unique aspects of the revelation of the divine that was brought to each community ( and to each individual ). That is my bias. Because I am aware of it, and I understand how it works, I am in a position to set it aside for the purpose of an objective review and discussion. Quote As I said in my last post. I am going to use your website for translation and reply to each verse you put over the coming days. Please let me know when you are finished? Quote Again I am sorry if I have hurt your feelings. I hope you accept my apology. You didn't hurt my feelings. My objection is about fairness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted January 6 21 hours ago, Daniel said: "The jews are cursed nine times" You got two pages of polite explanation, and you respond to none of it. I probally shouldnt bother getting involved in this, as nothing could change your mind, but If a text says curses the jews nine times you can fairly conclude that they dont have the friendliest attitude towards the people they are cursing, right. I understand that there are a long history and political situation that might make this a hot-topic, but come on… it is clear that you dont ever change your mind, and are not acctually having an open attitude and a willingness to learn. I think you should apologies to Vanja, but i know you wont… youll just keep on wasting others time with word salads 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 6 (edited) I checked all the previous posts. I did not see any new verses to be discussed. Therefore, I will add few clarifying verses to remove any further doubts. 9:97 The bedouins (are) stronger (in) disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely that not they know (the) limits (of) what (has) revealed Allah to His Messenger. And Allah (is) All-Knower, All-Wise. 9:98 And among the bedouins (is he) who takes what he spends (as) a loss, and he awaits for you the turns (of misfortune). Upon them (will be) the turn (of) the evil. And Allah (is) All-Hearer, All-Knower 9:99 But among the bedouins (is he) who, believes in Allah and the Day the Last, and takes what he spends (as) means of nearness with Allah and blessings (of) the Messenger. Behold! Indeed, it (is) a means of nearness for them. will admit them Allah to His Mercy. Indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Bedouins in Arabic "A'arab" اعراب They are nomads Arabs as oppose to city-dwellers Arabs such as people of Madina or Mecaa. Quran describes groups of Bedouins. The first and second verses described Bedouins groups as disbelievers. But the last group in verse 9:99, The Bedouins are described as believers and will receive Allah mercy. Are they not muslims? Of course they are muslims but converts from the Bedouins, but Quran is describing their origin Bedouins. One example being a companion of Mohammed called Abu thar Al ghafari ابو ذر الغفاري Just like that, Quran describes the Jewish and Christians converts to Islam as being believers from the people of the book referring to their origins. 4:145 Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and they wish that they differentiate between Allah and His Messengers and they say, "We believe in some and we disbelieve in others." And they wish that they take between that a way. 4: 146 Those - they (are) the disbelievers truly. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a punishment humiliating. Another verses emphasizes believing in ALL Messengers (including Jesus the Messiah) Not some and some. The position of Mecca (Ka'aba) in relation to Abraham (Ibrahim) 2:127 And when (was) raising Ibrahim the foundations of the House and Ismail, (saying), "Our Lord! Accept from us. Indeed You! [You] (are) the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing. 22:29 And when We assigned to Ibrahim (the) site (of) the House, "That (do) not associate with Me anything and purify My House for those who circumambulate and those who stand and those who bow, (and) those who prostrate. 22: 27 And proclaim to [the] mankind [of] the Pilgrimage; they will come to you (on) foot and on every lean camel; they will come from every mountain highway distant 3:96 Indeed, (the) First House set up for the mankind (is) the one which (is) at Bakkah, blessed and a guidance for the worlds. So Ibrahim himself build the Ka'ba (house of Mecca) in his own hand before any other temple and the first one for humankind. In Summary We have Jewish and Christians believers awaiting the coming of Mohammed as reveled to them in the Original Torah and Gospel according to Quran. (believers) We have Jewish and Christians believers became converts at the time of Mohammed (believers) and who did not convert (disbelievers). Over the 23 years of Quran revelation. There were many Jewish interactions with Mohammed cited in the Quran including waging wars and expelling them from their lands. Eventually the last revelation pertaining to Christians and Jews was Surah al Tawabah which is the only Surah in Quran which did not start with "In the name of Allah most compassionate and merciful". 9:29 Fight those who (do) not believe in Allah and not in the Day the Last, and not they make unlawful what has made unlawful Allah and His Messenger, and not they acknowledge (the) religion (of) the truth, from those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the reparation (from) willingly, while they (are) subdued. Last Daniel, be aware that if you confront muslims in the future, with only few verses they might use this verse against you and call you a cherry picker just like Quran described some Jews 2:58 Then you (are) those (who) kill yourselves and evict a party of you from their homes, you support one another against them in sin and [the] transgression. And if they come to you (as) captives, you ransom them, while it (was) forbidden to you their eviction. So do you believe in part (of) the Book and disbelieve in part? Then what (should be the) recompense (for the one) who does that among you, except disgrace in the life (of) the world; and (on the) Day of [the] Resurrection they will be sent back to (the) most severe punishment? And not (is) Allah unaware of what you do. From my side Quran was covered to a sufficient level. I do not think that adding any more verses will have add any further value to the discussion. If you have any questions/comments Daniel or anyone else please post them. However I will only reply after 2 weeks and I will discuss both your questions and start Hadith. Edited January 6 by Vajra Mind better wording 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 9 (edited) On 1/5/2024 at 7:59 AM, Vajra Mind said: NOTE to the readers this verse "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." is NOT a Quran verse, it is just Daniels own words according to what he understood. So do not be confused. I think it's clear from my posts that this is not a Quran verse. Yes, it's based on what I understood from readiing and studying the Quran. No, I do not have your knowledge, background, and experience. On 1/5/2024 at 7:59 AM, Vajra Mind said: I am forced to say you put many sentences with personal interpretations from misunderstanding already covered in earlier post This is what I found in the tafsir Ibn-Kathir. I'm not claiming "See, see, I'm right!!". I'm merely pointing out, that, I'm not alone, or completely unjustified in my conclusions. https://quran.com/16:36/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir ( Note: I haven't gone through to double check this translation. ) If "All of the messangers brought the same message." Then Muhammad's message was not new. It's the same message in the of Moses. It's the same message of Jesus. All the messages are the same. "the same message" = "everything that has been revealed to you already". Further, if Muhammad could not read nor write, the fact that the messages are all identical is a clear proof of Muhammad's station? If there is deviation, that disproves his station. Therefore, logically, wouldn't it make sense for Muhammad to preach? "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." On 1/5/2024 at 8:26 AM, Vajra Mind said: Anti-Jewish hatred stems from the basis that Jews disbelieved and did not follow Mohammed instead they followed their Rabbis and defective scriptures as stated in many many verses before. Therefore they are either disbelievers and worse polytheists. Regarding the defective scriptures. I'd like to hear your interpretation of the hadith I brought on Jan 3rd 9:30AM - LINK. In that hadith, it seems that the jewish people, during Muhammad's lifetime, were in possession of a divine, correct, Torah. Muhammad deferred to it? I also found this. Granted; it's on wikipedia. I'm not asserting any sort of perfection on it. This is intended to further support that I am not alone in my assertions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_in_Islam The majority position among Islamic scholars ( albeit according to wikipedia ) is that the Torah text itself is not corrupted. Only the interpretations were corrrupted. The minority position among Islamic scholars ( albeit according to wikipedia ) is that the Torah text itself is corrupted. Therefore, it's not automatically false doctrine in Islam to consider the Torah to be intact. On 1/5/2024 at 8:37 AM, Vajra Mind said: In rejecting Mohammed, the Quran resembles them to the wrong dowers and disbelievers and killers of the prophets at the time of Jesus and all the way to the time of Moses. That is the "context you are missing", Ah. Thank you. For me, this is not a problem of "context". That's not how I understand the word "context". I think that's where I was confused. I would call this a "deal-breaker". For example, looking at surah 3, there are 4-5 verses out of 200 which direct the reader to obey the messengers. Yes, I missed those. I did not explicitly include them in what I had written. However, that idea is 100% included in the Torah. Deut 18:18-20. But this is not context. It's a deal-breaker. Any which distinguish between the messengers, I prefer this one, but will not listen to that one, yes, I agree, is a disbeliever. But. Isn't it true that the only way this works is if all the messages are the same? Question: If the messages are NOT the same; then some of the messangers are not from Allah? This is described in Deut 13. And, there's also discussion of it in the gospels. If there are false prophets, then, how else does one discriminate among them other than comparing their message with one which is known to be intact? Again, logically, this is why it makes sense to me, that Muhammad wouuld come to the jewish people with a revelation that matches the one which is already in their possession. Let's talk about Jesus. On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet, messenger and messiah who came to Jews with his Gospel. Does Torah and Quran matches one-to-one? I'm sure you know this already, but, the Torah doesn't mention Jesus. However. Something that many don't know is... the word "messiah" in the Torah doesn't actually mean what many assume that it means. In the Torah, it means one which is annointed as a savior. There are actually many messiahs according to judaism. There is a messiah in each and every generation. The first mention of a moshiach ( messiah ) in the Torah is in the book of judges 3:3. ויזעקו בני־ישראל אל־יהוה ויקם יהוה מושיע לבני ישראל ויושיעם את עתניאל בן־קנז אחי כלב הקטן ממנו׃ And when the people of Israel cried to the Lord, the Lord raised up a savior (moshiyah) to the people of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother. Another somewhat famous example, ( famous among those of us who study tanach ) is Cyrus. Cyrus is interesting, because he was not jewish . Isaiah 45:1 כה־אמר יהוה למשיחו לכורש אשר־החזקתי בימינו לרד־לפניו גוים ומתני מלכים אפתח לפתח לפניו דלתים ושערים לא יסגרו׃ Thus says the Lord to his anointed (m'shichoh), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him doors and gates; and the gates shall not be closed; In judaism, there is a final moshiach, the "future king" which will reign in the messianic era. That specific era is described in different places in different ways. The bottom line is, it's been 2000 years, and the world is certainly not perfected. So, it's very difficult to claim that Jesus is that moshiach. However it is theoretically possible that Jesus was a suffering servant, per Isaiah 53, among others who came before, and similar to those who came after. It's possible that Jesus was a prophet and a messenger, among others who came before and after him. As I mentioned earlier. The jewish position on Jesus is actually agnostic. We do not spend time on it because it's clear that the gospels which we have today have problems. "None shall get to the father except through me?" "Ask for anything in my name and the father will grant it you in order to glorify the son?" "The father and I are one?" "Cursing a fig tree out of spite?" There are four primary reasons that jewish people reject the Jesus concept: 1) The notion of God literally having a son is anti-thetical to what is taught in the Torah 2) The notion that Jesus is a fleshy-priest-king-god-hybrid is essentially an egyptian pagan god concept. Pharoah was a priest-king-god-hybrid. 3) The jewish messiah does not die for our sins. There is absolutley nothing in the Torah which permits that. 4) Jesus did not actually fulfill the messianic prophecies. One of the reasons I objected so strongly to the accusation of cherry picking, is, I have seen actual cherry picking when christians attempt to claim Jesus fulfills messianic prophecies. A great example is the famous quote from Isaiah 9:6 ( it's 9:5 in the hebrew bible ). כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשרה על־שכמו ויקרא שמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אבי־עד שר־שלום׃ For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called “Wonderful counsellor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of peace”. Notice the part in blue? Jesus never had any governement on his shoulders. But that doesn't matter. They cherry pick the verse, ignore the context, the story that's being told, and claim this as a fulfilled prophecy. Notice the part in red? Jesus stated very clearly, in the gospels, he is NOT the prince of peace. Matthew 10:36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. These are the reasons that jewish people reject Christianity. But, the majority of us, do not make any claims about Jesus. We just make claims about what is written about him. On 1/6/2024 at 6:56 AM, Vajra Mind said: Quran describes the Jewish and Christians converts to Islam as being believers from the people of the book referring to their origins. I hear you. However, the verses state there is an ummah, a community, not individuals, which is doing, presently, good which can never be denied. Never. A whole community. Also, it's clear in Surah 3 that Ibrahim was a muslim before the Quran, before Muhammad. So was Nuh. So was Ismail. So was Musa. This indicates to me that the message is more important than the messenger. 3:73 And (do) not believe except (the one) who follows your religion." Say, "Indeed the (true) guidance (is the) Guidance (of) Allah - lest is given (to) one - (the) like (of) what was given to you or they may argue with you near your Lord." Say, "Indeed, the Bounty (is) in the Hand (of) Allah. He gives it (to) whom He wills, and Allah (is) All-Encompassing, All-Knowing True guidannce is from Allah. The message is more important than the messenger. 3:80 And not he will order you that you take the Angels, and the Prophets (as) lords. Would he order you to [the] disbelief after [when] you (have become) Muslims? The prophets are not lords. The message is more important than the messenger. 3:84 Say, "We believed in Allah and what (is) revealed on us and what was revealed on Ibrahim, and Ismail, and Ishaq, and Yaqub, and the descendents and what was given (to) Musa, and Isa, and the Prophets from their Lord. Not we make distinction between any of them and we to Him (are) submissive We do not make distinctions between any of them because... "All of the messengers brought the same message." <--- Ibn-Kathir? The message is more important than the messenger, and the all the messages are the same. Edited November 4 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 9 (edited) On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: It acknowledge Judaism, Christianity and Sabians as well as their books Torah, Gospel and the Book of John. All of the book of John? "None get to the father except through me"? This is false? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_the_Bible#:~:text=Gospel (Injil),-Main articles%3A Gospel&text=Accordingly%2C Muslim scholars reject the,have been corrupted over time. Edited November 4 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 9 On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: Quran acknowledges Moses, Jesus and John the Baptists (Prophet Yahya) as prophets and messengers. It acknowledge Judaism, Christianity and Sabians as well as their books Torah, Gospel and the Book of John. The Quran acknowledges Christianity? This is from the University of Cambridge: Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah promised in the Old Testament. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Christians believe that God sent his Son to earth to save humanity from the consequences of its sins. One of the most important concepts in Christianity is that of Jesus giving his life on the Cross (the Crucifixion) and rising from the dead on the third day (the Resurrection). Christians believe that there is only one God, but that there are three elements to this one God: God the Father. God the Son. The Holy Spirit. https://www.equality.admin.cam.ac.uk/projects/faith-and-belief-practice/overview-christianity The Quran affirms 1 out of 5. Most Christians, I think, would argue severely and bitterly that without Jesus' death and ressurection on the cross, one cannot ever be considered to be acknowledging Christianity. That is a denial of Christianity. Arguing against it, would be, forgive me, claiming as a Muslim that one knows Christianity better than other Christians who have studied and practiced their religion for over 2000 years. On 1/5/2024 at 6:57 AM, Vajra Mind said: Both [the torah and the gospels] were corrupt and lost verses 5:13-14. Wait. Just a few sentences ago you wrote: "Quran acknowledges their books Torah, Gospel and the Book of John." <--- Their books? But the truth is the Quran asserts their books are corrupted fabrications? Which is it? Are their books acknowledged or denied? Quote 7:157 Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet, the unlettered, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones." ... the unlettered prophet, Muhammad, whom they find in the Torah AND the Gospel? And in the Gospel? I do not recall Muhammad in the Gospel at least not explicitly. hmm.... Is it referring to the "comforter"? ~googling~ Found it! Ahhhhh, now it makes sense. Now I see why the Book of John must be included in spite of all its faults. The comforter is missing from the others. Let's look at the passages with the comforter. Is this cherry picking? Is this ignoring the whole-context of the book of John? Is it ignoring the whole-context of Christianity? John 14 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. Will be in you? That is the indwelling of the holy-spirit. It's the divine presence on earth after Jesus' earthly ministry. In hebrew it's the ruach-ha-kodesh. There's probably 20-30 verses about it in tanach. The innovation brought by the book of John regarding it is the indwelling. There is only one verse in tanach which describes an indwelling. It's late in Isaiah. I think chapter 60... lets see.... Ah. 63. ויזכר ימי־עולם משה עמו איה המעלם מים את רעי צאנו איה השם בקרבו את־רוח קדשו׃ Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who put his holy spirit in him? Here's the greek from John 14:17. Let's look at the other references to the "comforter" which will be sent by the father after Jesus' earthly ministry. John 15: 26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. OK. This one is not too bad. It could be Muhammad, except that the previous chapter says that this spirit will be IN the disciple. I suppose if that previous description is unknown or ignored, one could imagine that this is Muhammad. But, tecchnically it's cherry picking and ignoring the context. It's only mentioned one other time in the next chapter. Context: Jesus is comforting his disciples. John 16: ...it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” The "comforter", the "advocate", the "spirit of truth", will reveal what Jesus makes known to him? It's not coming from the father directly? It goes through Jesus? Is that a good match for Muhammad? Of course not. The only way to force it to work is to deny what's written, ignore the story, and the whole context of Christianity. Quote Mohammed is reveled in the Torah according to Quran. Do Jews agree ? Revealed in the Torah? Sure! If one knows where to look. But we would use Muhammd's birth name given by his mother. In Judaism the mother is granted prophecy when naming her child. The child's given name by the mother describes their essential character. It would be hidden, so, that none would erase it. Achmed is a guide from God described in the book of habakuk. He's referred to by name in the final verse. אדני חילי במותי ידרכני - God is my strength, he guides me on high places... Some ( many? ) will look at this as cherry picking and consider it a stretch. I disagree. It fits nicely in the book of Habakuk, especially since Ishmael's station is invoked early in the book. It's certainly not any more of a stretch than choosing to re-imagine the comforter in the Book of John. Do Jews agree? LOL. Not till the end-of-days. We are not a group which is composed of one-mind and one-heart. We are a diverse group. That's why we are "chosen". Not because we are superior. Hah. It's the opposite. Only the Lord God, the Most High would be able to take the most stubborn and rebellious people on the planet and reform them. That's why when THE Moshiach arrives, it will herald in a time when all people everywhere will recognize the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All Jews will be gathered and united in the messianic era. All Jews in agreement ( deut 10, Jerimiah 31,32, Ezekiel 11,36 ) will be absolute undeniable proof of a miracle from a benevolent god. On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: Mohammed relieves from them their burden and the fetter which were upon them. What are these burden that Mohammed relieved? How do you believe in him, honor him and help him and follow the light sent down with him? Are Jews doing that? Are Jews following the light sent down with him? That depends on what that "light" is. The Torah is described as a light. Do we honor the unlettered prophet? Some do, some don't. We are not all the same. Do we believe in him? The official position is: no, not as a prophet. However, that doesn't mean that belief in him is prohibtted by the Torah that we have today. The Torah includes non-jewish prophets. The best example, is Job. Little known fact: Job and his companions were not jewish, but are considered prophets. On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: Mohammed relives from them their burden and the fetter which were upon them. What are these burden that Mohammed relieved? I mentioned this earlier. The Quran is a book of clear signs; it describes the straight path. The Torah has the same message of strict monotheism, maintaining the covenant, belief in a final judgement, but, it's much more difficult and convoluted. On 1/5/2024 at 2:45 AM, Vajra Mind said: Does Torah and Quran matches one-to one ? Yes. You asked "Are the Jews doing that?" The topic is what's written, not jewish compliance with what's written. It's granted that the jewish people in the majority do not follow what's written. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 9 (edited) @Vajra Mind, I suppose what I'm looking for is a clear verse that says, "believing in Allah and the last day, maintaining your covenants ( contracts, treaties ) is not enough. If you do not accept Muhammad as a prophet then YOU'RE DOOMED. There are plenty of verses that clearly state DENYING Muhammad as a prophet is a sign of being a disbeliever. This makes sense. If someone comes to a religious person and says, "I have a revelation." Denying that revelation without hearing it is a sign of a disbeliever. If they are shown clear signs and they still disbelieve, then they're a kafr? a denier? The verse you brought 7:157 does not say that the ONLY way is to believe in Muhammad. That would be Muhammadism. In fact, its interesting that verse 158 is addressing "O mankind...", then is followed by 159 which reasserts that there is a community among the people of Moses. Again and again, there is a sharp rebuke of the jewish people, but it is followed by a reminder of what's referred to in my community as "the righteous remnant." ( Amos 9:9-11, Micah 2:12, and others ). And among (the) people (of) Musa (is) a community (which) guides with truth and by it establishes justice. The verses continue to describe the faults of the people again, but, there is a community among them which is saved. There is no mention of accepting the unlettered prophet. And when said a community among them, "Why (do) you preach a people, (whom) Allah (is going to) destroy them or punish them (with) a punishment severe?" They said, "To be absolved before your Lord and that they may become righteous." A community among them; among the people of Moses. So when they forgot what they had been reminded with [it], We saved those who forbade [from] the evil, and We seized those who wronged with a punishment wretched, because they were defiantly disobeying. A community from among the people of Moses were saved. Why? Because of their actions. It had nothing to do with believing in the unlettered prophet. The evil they borbade was dececrating the sabbath per Jewish law. If jewish people were required to convert to Islam, I do not think these verses would not have been written this way. Maybe there is something in the other verses and posts you brought which requires jewish people to convert, in spite of their good deeds. I'll keep looking. Edited January 9 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted January 12 Maybe these are the people of the book the Quran is referring to? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif#List_of_ḥanīfs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 29 (edited) Hi Daniel and all, Apologies for the delayed response, I was very busy lately and still busy but I can take break to give some more replies. Before I start with Hadith and reply to your posts. There is one more Arabic perspective issue I can share before moving on. On 1/5/2024 at 6:59 PM, Vajra Mind said: 29:46 And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit." 29:47 And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers. 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers. 29:49 Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers. The the following was my reply, I mentioned it is much clearer in Arabic context without giving further explanation because it will be too overwhelming. But I think it would be more fair if I did add a piece of information about Arabic grammar On 1/5/2024 at 6:59 PM, Vajra Mind said: Verse 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers. You said this is a Jewish scribal customs BUT This is completely out of context Daniel, the verse is directed to Mohammed as he did not write or read, has he been doing that then people would suspect (doubted) that he has knew the scriptures by learning. It is much clearer in Arabic context. In English context the word “you/your” can refer to singular and pleural alike but in Arabic context the word you/your comes in singular, dual, and pleural forms Your right hand (in singular/one person) is yamenok (in dual/two persons) is yamenokoma (in pleural/three and more) is yamenokom Likewise, The verse 29:46 the “you” is pleural In verse 29:48 the “you” is singular directed to Mohammed. Allah is talking to Mohammed. The verses shift from pleural to singular. I hope that any confusion is gone now. Is this a problem of translators or language limitations? not sure what to call it. Edited January 29 by Vajra Mind wrong word 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 29 (edited) On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said: f "All of the messangers brought the same message." Then Muhammad's message was not new. It's the same message in the of Moses. It's the same message of Jesus. All the messages are the same. "the same message" = "everything that has been revealed to you already". Further, if Muhammad could not read nor write, the fact that the messages are all identical is a clear proof of Muhammad's station? If there is deviation, that disproves his station. Therefore, logically, wouldn't it make sense for Muhammad to preach? Yes. The core message is oneness of Allah, believe his his massagers. and the last day. BUT This core message is wrapped by much further updated and complete and last instructions/revelation (Sharia) which overrides or abrogates all previous Sharias and must be followed. I will get Hadiths to support that at the end of the post. On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said: Regarding the defective scriptures. I'd like to hear your interpretation of the hadith I brought on Jan 3rd 9:30AM - LINK. In that hadith, it seems that the jewish people, during Muhammad's lifetime, were in possession of a divine, correct, Torah. Muhammad deferred to it? Yes. I will reply to that hadith too at the end of the post. But regarding defective scripture (corruption or lost portions) No one in the Islamic world can have a say with certainty what exactly has been lost or corrupted, simply because neither Quran nor Mohammed gave specific accounts or details. So all muslims scholars are doing is giving educated guesses. On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said: I hear you. However, the verses state there is an ummah, a community, not individuals, which is doing, presently, good which can never be denied. Never. A whole community. Yes. There is Hadith that even one person can be called or resurrected as Ummah (nation/community). I will get that at the end of the post. On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said: Let's talk about Jesus. On 1/5/2024 at 1:45 PM, Vajra Mind said: Quran acknowledges Jesus as prophet, messenger and messiah who came to Jews with his Gospel. Does Torah and Quran matches one-to-one? I'm sure you know this already, but, the Torah doesn't mention Jesus. However. Something that many don't know is... the word "messiah" in the Torah doesn't actually mean what many assume that it means. In the Torah, it means one which is annointed as a savior. There are actually many messiahs according to judaism. There is a messiah in each and every generation. Well. Remember I am ex-muslim and do not approve how Quran views other religions so I am playing the devils advocate here. But from Quran/Islamic perspective the real identity and story of Jesus (Essa) is told by Quran and he must be acknowledged exactly how the Quran or Allah says because Allah is All knowing while both Torah and Gospel have been partially corrupted. On 1/9/2024 at 5:30 AM, Daniel said: All of the book of John? "None get to the father except through me"? This is false? No no no, you have confused two different characters. I have mentioned him in one of my posts under the name Yahya as well. The Book of John is the book of Yahya. Not John the disciple of Jesus but John the Baptist (Yahya) he is cousin of Jesus and son of prophet Zacharia (not Jewish prophet Zacharia but a later figure). Both Yahya (John the baptist) and Zacharia his father are prophets however John is also a messenger and he had his own book and he was sent to Sabian. This is a verse that concerns him: 19:7 "O Zakariya! Indeed, We [We] give you glad tidings of a boy his name (will be) Yahya, not We (have) assigned [for] it from before (this) name." 19:12 "O Yahya! Hold the Scripture with strength." And We gave him [the] wisdom (when he was) a child 2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their reward with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve. I have read the rest of your posts Daniel. I really do not know what to say. My opinion does not matter here. I can only tell you some of what I know. There is a scholar in Al Azhar University in Egypt, his name is Dr. Tariq Nasr. He is reformer and closer in his interpretation of Quran to the new Islamic sect called "Quraini". This Qurani sect rejects Hadith and base their belief on their own interpretations of Quran alone and they have different interpretations than Sunni and Shia schools. They are still a minority group but may be they will grow further and maybe there is some hope for peace and tolerance between these two religions. In my next post, I will start covering some Hadith and other replies. Edited January 29 by Vajra Mind Add one sentence 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 29 (edited) On 1/3/2024 at 8:30 PM, Daniel said: If you need more, there is a hadith where Muhammad defers to the Torah: https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/abudawood/033_sat.html#:~:text=They placed a cushion for,who is learned among you. Is there a problem with the translation above? Is there context in the hadith that is missing here? You probably know that Hadith is graded by Hadith scholars according to the chain of narrators (sanad) into Sahih (well verified) or Hasan (less verified but acceptable) or Daif (weak not reliable). The story in this Hadith came from several sources (chain of narrators) not just one (Sunan Abi Dawud Book has many Hadiths some are Sahih, Hasan, weak or fake). This Hadith you referred me to has Grade Hasan (less reliable than Sahih but acceptable). Here is the link for the grade: https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4449 Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar: A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to Quff. So he visited them in their school. They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee. He then said: Bring me one who is learned among you. Then a young man was brought. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition of stoning similar to the one transmitted by Malik from Nafi. This same story was told by more verified and reliable chain of narrators Grade Sahih: https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4452 Jabir b. ‘Abd Allah said: The Jews brought a man and a woman of them who had committed fornication. He said: Bring me two learned men or yours. So they brought the two sons of Suriya. He adjured them and said: How do you think about the matter if these two persons bear witness to the effect that they have seen his sexual organ in her female organ (penetrated) like a collyrium stick when enclosed in its case, they will be stoned to death. He asked: What is there which prevents you from stoning them: They replied : Our rule has gone, so we disapproved of killing. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) then called four witnesses. They brought four witnesses. Who testified that they had seen his sexual organ (penetrated) in her female organ like a collyrium stick when enclosed in its case. The Prophet (ﷺ) then gave orders for stoning them. ّThe second more reliable source (Sahih) has different content, as it does not have the highlighted part, but it does not change the narrative that Quran and all muslim scholars acknowledge and believe in Torah, Gospel and other books as divine revelation by Allah, however as stated by Quran verses (posted before) they had missing and corrupted elements and they have been abrogated by Quran itself (posted before) the most complete, accurate and last revelation by Allah. Moreover, Mohammed did not force Christians to convert to Islam even though Christians believed in Trinity and Jesus as son of god, However that does not mean that he approved their belief: 5:47 And let judge (the) People (of) the Injeel by what has revealed Allah in it. And whoever (does) not judge by what revealed Allah then those [they] (are) the defiantly disobedient You have already seen and criticized the Injeel (the Gospel). Yet Quran is ordering Christians to follow it! It does not mean Quran approves the current version as a whole or the Trinity as a valid belief. Again I say regarding defective scripture (corruption or lost portions) No one in the Islamic world can have a say with certainty what exactly has been lost or corrupted, simply because neither Quran nor Mohammed gave specific accounts or details. So all muslims scholars are doing is giving educated guesses. This is similar to the Jews said case of Uzair son of God. Mohammed/Quran did not give specific details so muslims scholars still puzzled by this verse regarding Uzair son of God. Let see some relevant Hadith to our discussion: 1) Theses 2 Hadiths are Grade Sahih agreed upon by both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (sorry the link does not show the grade and I only have Arabic sources for the grade but Bhukhari in general is considered Grade Sahih) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: If ten scholars of the Jews would follow me, no Jew would be left upon the surface of the earth who would not embrace Islam. https://sunnah.com/muslim:2793 Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Had only ten Jews (amongst their chiefs) believe me, all the Jews would definitely have believed me." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3941 2) This is also a summary of what happened to Jews of Madina, narrated in the Sahih Bhukhari (again no grade shown but in general Sahih Bhukhari is considered all Sahih and most reliable after Quran): Narrated Ibn `Umar: Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought (against the Prophet (ﷺ) violating their peace treaty), so the Prophet exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places (in Medina) taking nothing from them till they fought against the Prophet (ﷺ) again) . He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of `Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina. https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4028 3) From Sunan Abi Dawud. Grade Sahih Ibn ‘Umar said “The Jews Al Nadir and Quraizah fought with the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ), so the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) expelled Banu Al Nadir and allowed the Quraizah to stay and favored them. The Quraizah thereafter fought (with the Prophet).” So he killed their men and divided their women, property and children among Muslims except some of them who associated with the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ). He gave them protection and later on they embraced Islam. The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) expelled all the Jews of Madeenah in Toto, Banu Qainuqa, they were the people of ‘Abd Allaah bin Salam, the Jews of Banu Harith and any of Jews who resided in Madeenah. https://sunnah.com/abudawud:3005 4) From Sahih Bukhari Narrated Mus`ab: I asked my father, "Was the Verse:-- 'Say: (O Muhammad) Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of their deeds?'(18.103) revealed regarding Al-Haruriyya?" He said, "No, but regarding the Jews and the Christians, for the Jews disbelieved Muhammad and the Christians disbelieved in Paradise and say that there are neither meals nor drinks therein. Al- Hururiyya are those people who break their pledge to Allah after they have confirmed that they will fulfill it, and Sa`d used to call them 'Al-Fasiqin (evildoers who forsake Allah's obedience). 5) Jami Alturmithi. Grade Sahih Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "If I live - if Allah wills - I will expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula." https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:1606 6) In every Islamic prayer surat al Fateha is recited which ends with these verses 1:6 Guide us (to) the path, the straight 1:7 (The) path (of) those You have bestowed (Your) Favors on them, not (of) those who earned (Your) wrath on themselves and not (of) those who go astray. From Jami Al Turmuthi. Grade Hasan: Narrated 'Adiyy bin Hatim: that the Prophet (ﷺ) said: "The Jews are those who Allah is wrath with, and the Christians have strayed." https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2954 7) Mishlat elmisbah. Grade Sahih Abu Huraira reported God’s messenger as saying, "By Him in whose hand Muhammad’s soul is, anyone of this people, Jew or Christian, who hears of me and then dies without believing in my message, will be among those who go to hell.” https://sunnah.com/mishkat:10 8) Sunan an Nisai. Grade Hasan It was narrated that Safwan bin 'Assal said: "A Jew said to his companion: 'Let us go to this Prophet.' His companion said to him: 'Do not say Prophet; if he hears you, he will become big-headed.' So they came to the Messenger of Allah [SAW] and asked him about nine clear signs. He said to them: 'Do not associate anything with Allah, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not kill any soul whom Allah has forbidden you to kill, except by right, do not speak falsely about an innocent man before a ruler, do not engage in magic, do not consume Riba (usury), do not slander chaste women, and do not flee on the day of the march (to battle). And for you Jews especially, do not break the Sabbath.' They kissed his hands and feet and said: 'We bear witness that you are a Prophet.' He said: 'What is keeping you from following me?' They said: 'Dawud prayed that there would always be a Prophet among his descendants, and we are afraid that if we follow you, the Jews will kill us.'" https://sunnah.com/nasai:4078 9) Sahih Bukhari Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were in the mosque, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came out to us and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went along with him till we reached Bait-al-Midras (a place where the Torah used to be recited and all the Jews of the town used to gather). The Prophet (ﷺ) stood up and addressed them, "O Assembly of Jews! Embrace Islam and you will be safe!" The Jews replied, "O Aba-l-Qasim! You have conveyed Allah's message to us." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "That is what I want (from you)." He repeated his first statement for the second time, and they said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-l- Qasim." Then he said it for the third time and added, "You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you fro,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6944 10) Sunan Abi Dawud. Grade Sahih Abu Hurairah said, While we were in the mosque, the Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) came out and said “Come on to the Jews. So we went out with him and came to them”. The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) stood up, called them and said “If you, the community of Jews accept Islam you will be safe”. They said “You have given the message Abu Al Qasim”. The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) said “Accept Islam you will be safe”. They said “You have given the message Abu Al Qasim”. The Apostle of Allaah(ﷺ) said “that I intended”. He then said the third time “Know that the land belongs to Allaah and His Apostle and I intend to deport you from this land. So, if any of you has property (he cannot take it away), he must sell it, otherwise know that the land belongs to Allaah and His Apostle (ﷺ).” https://sunnah.com/abudawud:3003 11) Jami el Tarnuthi. Grade Sahih Narrated Abu Hurairah: that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Do not precede the Jews and the Christians with the Salam. And if one of you meets them in the path, then force them to its narrow portion." https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:2700 12) Sahih Bukhari Narrated Anas: A young Jewish boy used to serve the Prophet (ﷺ) and he became sick. So the Prophet (ﷺ) went to visit him. He sat near his head and asked him to embrace Islam. The boy looked at his father, who was sitting there; the latter told him to obey Abul-Qasim and the boy embraced Islam. The Prophet (ﷺ) came out saying: "Praises be to Allah Who saved the boy from the Hell-fire." https://sunnah.com/bukhari:1356 There are many Hadiths that are consistent with the narrative of embracing Islam and following Mohammed to be saved. You have the links Daniel so you can find many more from the websites. I want to add one more Hadith that is creating a lot of hate which will be difficult to change From Both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim and have been narrated in many Hadith sources Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said, "The Last Hour will not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews, until a Jew will hide himself behind a stone or a tree, and the stone or the tree will say: 'O Muslim, there is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him,' but Al-Gharqad tree will not say so, for it is the tree of the Jews." https://sunnah.com/riyadussalihin:1820 Edited January 29 by Vajra Mind wrong word and add sentences. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vajra Mind Posted January 29 (edited) 11 hours ago, Vajra Mind said: On 1/9/2024 at 5:27 AM, Daniel said: I hear you. However, the verses state there is an ummah, a community, not individuals, which is doing, presently, good which can never be denied. Never. A whole community. Yes. There is Hadith that even one person can be called or resurrected as Ummah (nation/community). I will get that at the end of the post. To answer your question I have 2 sources from Quran and from Hadith First: Quran verse 16:120 Indeed, Ibrahim was a nation obedient to Allah upright, and not he was of the polytheists The word here nation is "Ummah" = nation was used to describe just one person "Abraham" because he was an example to others to follow. Second: Hadith Musnad Ahmad (Sorry I could not find an English source to this Hadith): عن نُفيل بن هشام بن سعيد بن زيد بن عمرو بن نُفيل عن أبيه، عن جده قال: كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بمكة، هو وزيد بن حارثة، فمر بهما زيد بن عمرو بن نُفيل، فدعوه إلى سُفرٍ لهما، فقال: يا ابن أخي، إني لا آكل مما ذُبح على النُّصب، قال: فما رُؤيَ النبيّ صلى الله عليه وسلم بعد ذلك أكَلَ شيئاً مما ذُبح على النُّصب. قال: قلت: يا رسول الله، إن أبي كان كما قد رأيت وبلغك، ولو أدرككَ لآمنَ بك واتَّبعك، فاستغفِرْ له، قال: نعم، فأَستغفِرُ له، فإنه يبعث يومَ القيامة أُمَّةً واحدةً Mohammed is talking about one guy named (zaid bin amro bin nifail) who died before time of Mohammed that he will be resurrected in the day of judgment by himself alone as an Ummah. So yes the word ummah while means nation can be referred to one person too in Arabic. Up to here, this has been suffienct coverage in my opinion. There are further sources from rest of Hadith, Tafsir and Sirah to establish a hateful ideology, but I have no desire to create negative karma for myself or others. I wish peace to all beings. Edited January 29 by Vajra Mind adding few sentences. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-_sometimes Posted June 16 (edited) Edit: actually i don't feel like discussing this Edited June 16 by -_sometimes 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
